Struggling - Wife can't be away from children, and thinks my mom can do no good

[ownpower]

Married 3 years, together 5.5. Children 3 and 1.

When we moved, at my insistence from Florida to the Midwest, our first child was 6 months and my wife was in the midst of a postpartum funk. And for the past 3 years i have chalked up her behavior to postpartum “stuff”. The most difficult of her behavior for me has been  the way that she treats my mother, who can do no good. My mother has no relationship with her grandchildren(my 2 kids) to speak of, and I just can’t take it anymore. My wife can’t be away from her children, (we have never had a babysitter), and I have gone along with it - even though I know it is about her sickness/BP insecurities that drive this. I think that she has hijacked the ideas of “attachment parenting” to rationalize her behavior.  

I have been taking a backseat and hoping that my mom and wife would settle their “cold war” on their own, but nada. My wife is a bear(aggressive), and my mom is dear(run, avoid). I am planning to ask my wife to go and see a mediator with my mom. Is this a bad idea?

I am reading the eggshell book,  the essential family guide, and the Understanding the BP mother, and it is painfully relieving to find my story in those pages.

i know that I am going through a transition with how I react to her BP behavior, it’s just hard to give a f*ck. I am being less codependent, and taking better care of myself, but a depression has set in. I feel burned out, and so tired of this sh*t.  I feel so f*cking stuck. I would like my parents and brother to have more of a relationship with my children, and they never know what they are going to get when we get together. Well my mom knows. It has been miserable.

and yes, obviously, i have tried to force/beg/suggest/etc. therapy and ANY other self care to no avail.

I'm feeling really found by seeing this situation more clearly...but also VERY VERY LOST.  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Radcliff]

We're sorry for all you're going through, but are glad you've found us.  The frustration level can be incredible, but recognizing the issues, and that there's a mental illness at the center of things that has predictable patterns, is the start to making things better instead of worse.

Your mom's presence is likely threatening to your wife.  BPD can turn things topsy turvy so that a bear is scared of a deer.  To stretch the metaphor, your wife may well be like a protective bear on the outside and a scared deer on the inside who sees bears all around her.

How are things between you and your wife?  Do they range from good to bad, or is it much more bad these days?  In other words, does it feel like you've got some positives to work from?

RC

[ownpower]

Thanks for the warm response. Things between us are rough, she shows little to no affection ( and it has been this way for 3 years- since first child was born). One of my mentors asked me a similar question the other day: "if there was any love left between us"... AND i have been pondering this, and struggling to find any.

In reading the Christine Ann Lawson Understanding the Borderline Mother - she is a clear hermit, and I also fit nicely into author's description of hermit husband = huntsman.

[Harri]

Hi and welcome. 

It is great that you are reading Understanding the Borderline Mother so you know what your kids are likely experiencing and to learn more about your wife.  Having a spouse with BPD or BPD traits is difficult.  Having a parent, a mother with it, is difficult, bewildering and frequently damaging so it is great that you are arming yourself with information.

What aspects of the huntsman do you see in yourself?  Do you want to work on learning new ways to cope and respond?  The people on this board can help you with that.  We all support each other as we learn.

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry to hear that there's no affection coming from your wife.  It's hard to live like that.  Are you still able to positively engage her, or do you find yourself withdrawing?

I see you're reading the Essential Family Guide.  There's overlap between that book and the tools taught here.  Has anything jumped out at you from the book that seems like it might be helpful to apply in your situation?

RC

[ownpower]

Hi Hari,

thanks for your response. I do want to work on responding differently, and I have started to respond differently. I have not been (attempting to )"rescue" her from her anger. I added "attempted to", b/c it never really worked. This change has been received by her as me not caring. I have explained to her my process since the beginning - which I believe she can't hear/tends to distort. I have not shared with her that i think she has BPD.

For instance: last night i was reading my daughter a book and I asked MY Daughter a question. My daughter looked at my wife and my wife answered the question. My wife picked up on my irritation with this and after i finished the book, she said sorry in a way that I received as "sorry that you get mad when I (my wife) talk to my daughter".  So to unpack this, my wife does this 24/7, she has to be involved in every conversation with my daughter, so of course my daughter looks to her when she doesn't know an answer. When i bring up my concern/frustration with this she says that i'm saying she can't talk with her children.

So after her faux apology last night, she rolled over and sulked. In the past i would have tried to talk her out of her anger. I did not do this last night.

As far as huntsman characteristics go: I have lived in denial and avoidance for the past 3 +years. I have protected/sheltered her from natural consequences of her behavior. I repress my emotions and don't see my own happiness as important. ALso have been fueled by the guilt of "forcing" the cross-country move.

My calmness balances her volatility. I am rigidly defended against my vulnerability.

...while it has been very freeing to really SEE what is going on AND stand in my truth..I have little hope that this relationship will continue much longer.

[Radcliff]

I totally understand your annoyance at your wife answering for your daughter.  That situation has happened to me with my wife and daughter, and it drove me nuts.  I'm trying to have a relationship with my daughter, and my wife interferes.  All that said, there's no way you'll be effective at changing things in the moment like that, by displaying your annoyance to your wife.  She's not going to react well, and even a "non" likely wouldn't react well.  Calm times are when you're likely to make progress.

Don't give up the ship yet.  There's still considerable room for improvement.  It takes a while to learn to adjust our behavior while also looking out for ourselves.

I get what you're saying about your calmness balancing her volatility.  I felt this exact way.  One thing we can miss when we do that is that they can take our calmness as not caring.  Their first choice might be for us to get as excited as they are.  We're determined not to do that, but we need to find other ways to show we care. Take a look at this page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.

You talk about being rigidly defended against your vulnerabilities.  Can you tell us more about that?

RC

[Harri]

So after her faux apology last night, she rolled over and sulked. In the past i would have tried to talk her out of her anger. I did not do this last night.

Excellent.      Were you anxious or angry and if so how were you able to manage that?  I find it very hard to fight my natural instinct to comfort or rescue other people and I have to remind myself to stay on my side of the street.  I try to think of it in terms of respecting the other person boundaries or right to take care of their self.

Do you have any thoughts on why your daughter looked to your wife rather than answering herself?  Did she seem okay or closed off or nervous?

From Radcliff: 

All that said, there's no way you'll be effective at changing things in the moment like that, by displaying your annoyance to your wife.  She's not going to react well, and even a "non" likely wouldn't react well.  Calm times are when you're likely to make progress.

Agreed.  Another thing to consider is your daughter.  She really is caught in the middle and I think staying calm and reasonable despite the frustration is in your best interest in terms of a good relationship with her.  She seems to be trying not to get mom upset and that is quite a burden for a kid.  Knowing she can count on you to stay steady and be calm will make a huge difference for her in terms of anxiety.  What did she do while your wife was sulking?  Were you able to continue your time with your daughter, just the two of you and relax?

[ownpower]

Not sure how use quote box  for quotes, so:

From Radcliff: "That they can take our calmness as not caring"

YES YES YES. I have explained my stance every which way from sunday, and it isn't getting through/falling on deaf ears. Thanks for suggested page Radcliff.


From Radcliff: "You talk about being rigidly defended against your vulnerabilities.  Can you tell us more about that?"

I guess that I don't trust her. When I have been vulnerable with her the focus almost immediately goes back to her. I am trying to see how I have contributed to this in our relationship, how i have held myself back from asking for what I want and need. To quote Anais Nin "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage". And that is where i want to live my life from today.

Right now, I am done getting on the roller coaster everytime she gets on. Right now, i'll be on the platform when she gets off, but i'm not going to scale the joists, run down the tracks, or do any of the other BS i did to try and cajole her off.

From Harri:
Do you have any thoughts on why your daughter looked to your wife rather than answering herself?
I believe, since mom is always (and i mean ALWAYS) there, she hasn't been able to (yet) develop a sense of indepence. AND, in very subtle ways my wife has emasculated me and my authority. In a recent conversation, that was one of the most productive we have had I shared the need/want that I wanted her to respect my authority as a parent/father more. And it seemed that she actually freaking heard it! crazy

Harri:  What did she do while your wife was sulking?  Were you able to continue your time with your daughter, just the two of you and relax?

We kept reading the book. My daughter pretty much keeps on with what she has going on, not sure if she is avoiding or what. Last night my wife was crying before bedtime, and my daughter acknowledged it but kept wanting me to read her a book. I am happy that my wife later was able to say to her that it's okay to be sad and cry.


YESTERDAY, I made the request FINALLY! Me: " I want your support in moving past this conflict with my mom. Will you go with her to see a mediator?"... She later texted me her response "No, my answer is no. I already have a lot in my head and will not put myself into something like that."

Again, it's always about her. Always. We talked more about it last night (hence the crying mentioned above), and she asked more about the mediation. I'm not pushing it anymore or requesting it again. (big fat period)

One of the things that she has told me recently is that she hasn't seen me as needing her support/love. That I was self sufficient, etc. I am willing to accept a fraction of this as my protective wall that i've put up, but also not buying the thing. I have made it clear many many times. Also, she is putting on this show right now that she had seen our relationship as fine. wow. In Steve Job's biography the author talk a lot about his "reality distortion field(RDF)" and the power it had over people. I'm getting much better as seeing through her RDF.

I will start to do things with the kids and my family w/out her in the near future though, especially if she is unwilling to support me in moving past conflict. Since my daughter has been the object of her attachment, this will be a big big situation. 

[Radcliff]

One of the things that she has told me recently is that she hasn't seen me as needing her support/love. That I was self sufficient, etc. I am willing to accept a fraction of this as my protective wall that i've put up, but also not buying the thing. I have made it clear many many times.

This really jumped out at me.  One of the things that I found about my wife is that she would provide fantastic support sometimes, and other times attack me.  I never knew what I was going to get.  It felt like it'd be safer not to accept any support from her than to get yanked back and forth like a yo-yo.  Does this sound like your situation?

The problem is that you can see from her comment that she feels you closing yourself off from her.  She is yearning for connection with you, but doesn't have the skills to establish a stable connection.  What are some ways in which she has supported you in the past that worked for both of you?

RC

[ownpower]

You know, I'm not sure that I ever really feel supported by her. Part of that is my walls and part of it isn't.

I need to put more of where I am down, hoping that you will indulge me.

So, i'm being different in this relationship. I'm not getting on the roller coaster everytime she does. I am being clear and consistent in my message (that i'll be at the platform when she is done). In this new way, I struggle to find love to show/give. I feel like i'm in a kind of grey zone now. While she sees/experiences me as being different, I don't our relationship any different AND how she is with me hasn't changed really...she is still pretty much always irritated with me.

I know that i have been trying my darndest to change her, and that NOW i'm in a place of accepting her for who she is. AND i don't like her. I don't like who she is. this is really hard to write, and i don't know if i'm saying it out of frustration or what. I know that i'm in a dark place, and that most of what she does annoys me now more than ever. I have very little hope about this relationship.

She makes minimal effort to connect with me, is nearly ALWAYS on her phone (FB, messenger, etc.), doesn't trust me, thinks that i'm against her constantly, it's always about her and what she wants AND she has to be the center...

I told her this weekend that I would do anything (eg, read a book together, go see a therapist) to try and help our relationship. Ball is in her court, since she said she would think about it. I would be willing to put money down that if I don't bring it up again or ask what she decided, she won't get back to me about her decision. 

I know that my new behavior hard for her, and i want to be patient and kind. AND i keep seeing more this more clearly, and that is draining the hell out of me.

I have A LOT of resources. So i am grateful for many people in my life who i can lean on for guidance and to be challenged on my perspective. I would be in a state hospital if it wasn't for all the support i do have in my life. Just want you all to know that I would not have made it this far if it wasn't for help. Thanks for being part of my support system. 

[Radcliff]

I'm sorry to hear that you're feeling like you don't like her now; that's a tough place to be.  Give it some time.  Improvements won't happen overnight.

You mentioned that you are reading The Essential Family Guide.  Have any tools from it seemed helpful?  Are there any things you've tried lately that have helped?

RC