Help for Son Going Through Breakup with BPD girlfriend

[Danali60]

 

My son is going through a break-up which was brought about by his UBPD girlfriend.  They share a child, our grandson who is almost 3 years old.  I am so concerned for my grandson first of all and his well-being as the uBPD has exhibited all of my grandson's life signs not bonding with her son, always being out, admitted to cheating with a couple of different men and basically likes the single party life.  She has a daughter from another man who my son loves as his own.

She is in the process of moving out of their home this week.  My son is not "out of the fog" yet but getting there.  Any advice on how I can best help my son and his situation?

Thanks!
Danali60

[GaGrl]

I'm so sorry your family is experiencing this. May I ask a few questions that could guide some suggestions?

What will the child-sharing arrangements be going forward? Is your son seeking legal advice?

What type of relationship have you had with your son's ex? Does she depend on you for any of your grandson's care?

And is your son doing any counseling/therapy? What is his current mind-set?

[Danali60]

Hello Gagrl and thank you for your reply. 

Arrangements for our grandson are only verbal right now.  He is planning (but is a procrastinator) on getting some legal advice through the company he works for as this is one of their benefits.  Nothing in writing though - just verbal.  The uBPD told him she did not want to go court, but just wanted a 50/50 custody setup between the two of them and that was it.  However, she is very aware of how much money my son makes and she has a child from a previous relationship who she gave this same offer to.  When he decided to get this in writing, she refused to sign it, took him to court, and her lawyer's strategy was to draw the case out until the dad ran out of money, so she won full custody. 

My son is not seeing a counselor/therapist yet, but I have brought it up to him several times.  I tried to explain to him that before he can be good for anyone else he needs to do some work on himself and be clear on what a healthy relationship looks like.  Unfortunately for him, this was his first real serious relationship and he went into it for the long haul, telling himself that this was his family for life.  He is slowly picking up the pieces, but it sure hasn't been easy.  He feels like everything he had is disappearing before his eyes.

On the other hand, the uBPD is already in a new relationship (was with him while with my son), is moving into an apartment and over the last 2 weeks since the breakup (2 weeks ago today), she has spent 3 days with her kids.  One for most of the day, with the boyfriend along, one evening for 2 hours with her daughter and returned her to my son sick and crying, and then yesterday went to her parents house for 2-1/2 hours and once again returned them to my son.  Even though the little girl is not his, he has been with her since she was 4 months old and my son has been the stable, constant, nurturing person in their lives. 

He admitted to us, which we kind of already knew, she was gone for usually 5-6 nights a week while they were together and sometimes did not even come home at night, thus their mom going literally days without seeing her children.  She is not emotionally connected to the kids and fails to show them any sort of nurturing or affection. 

I am just terribly worried about both of these children.  I feel the little girl is like my granddaughter as well.  She is moving into her apartment this week, and I cannot even fathom them going to bed in a strange place with no dad present.  He is the one they called for at night for whatever they needed.  They were too afraid to call for her as she would rage and yell at them, and some of the time was not even there. 

I know this is far more info than you asked me for.  I apologize for my ranting on and on.  Just feeling so anxious and concerned. 

Thanks so much for your patience.

[Danali60]

Dear Gagrl,

I see a question you asked I did not answer.  My relationship with my son's uBPD has not been good. They have been together for 5 years and myself, husband and other son have been wise as to what has been going on with her for a long time.  So basically, she has not ever liked us, nor have we liked her.  There have been arguments in the past with her.  However, we tolerated each other with family get-togethers, kids' birthdays, etc...

[Panda39]

Arrangements for our grandson are only verbal right now.  He is planning (but is a procrastinator) on getting some legal advice through the company he works for as this is one of their benefits.  Nothing in writing though - just verbal.  The uBPD told him she did not want to go court, but just wanted a 50/50 custody setup between the two of them and that was it.  However, she is very aware of how much money my son makes and she has a child from a previous relationship who she gave this same offer to.  When he decided to get this in writing, she refused to sign it, took him to court, and her lawyer's strategy was to draw the case out until the dad ran out of money, so she won full custody. 

I think it is important that your son have a legal consultation sooner rather than later.  He doesn't want to give any of his rights away so he should know what they are to better protect himself and his son. He should make no promises until he has met with an attorney. He might want to have consultations with several to find the right one.  (there is likely a fee for the consultations)

Her previous actions are a predictor for what she will do going forward.  The idea of having an agreement between themselves is appealing because it looks like the road of least resistance, but it isn't.  If there is no legal documention in place regarding custody it makes it easier for her to withhold visitation and he will likely end up going to court anyway.  Her game plan with dad #1 worked so she will likely try the same strategy with your son.  He should make no promises about anything until he has an attorney.

There is a book that you/your son might want to check out...

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder
by Bill Eddy

Take Care,
Panda39

[Danali60]

Thank you for your reply Panda!

I agree totally with everything you advised.  My son is kind of touchy right now, so sometimes I make suggestions and he agrees and other times he acts like he doesn't want to hear about it.  So, all I can do is tread lightly and suggest the legal representation, which he has assured me he is going to do. 

I have already suggested the book to him that you mentioned, so we will see what he does with that.  I may read it myself for a better understanding. 

Thank you again!  Be well!

[zachira]

I am so sorry your son is going through a break-up with his BPD girlfriend, how that affects the children and you. I have read "Splitting" which Panda has recommended, and it is a must read for you and your son to be able to counteract the tactics a person with BPD might use to their advantage in splitting up.

[Danali60]

Thank you Zachira.  I already have a copy on my Kindle and am thinking of ordering a hard copy for my son.  That would be telling him that I think she has BPD, so not quite sure how he will take that.  I'm not real sure how to present it to him.  Any ideas?

[Panda39]

Your son has a lot on his plate but do you think he would be receptive to joining our website? We have several "relationship" boards he could find others experiencing similar issues/behaviors and get support as he processes the end of the relationship.  It might be helpful for him to bounce things off others that "get it"... going through the same thing or have gone through it.

We also have a "legal board" (no we aren't lawyers) where members meet to talk through strategies and share what worked for them, get ideas, tools, and support etc. that he might find helpful as he gets further down the road.

Panda39

[zachira]

I wish I had some words of wisdom to offer you on how to get your son to go to therapy and to read "Splitting". As for the little girl that is not your grandchild, you could volunteer to take care of both children when you feel like you can. I was the scapegoat in my immediate family, and so many people made a big difference in my life by their kindness and caring: 1) Aunts and an uncle who were the scapegoats, along with other relatives 2) Non family members who sometimes gave me just five minutes of caring attention which meant the world to me. You don't have to do a lot to make a big difference in the lives of your grandchild and the daughter of your son's girlfriend. Children who are mistreated will often soak up the attention and caring from a loving adult like a sponge. I still remember with fondness one mother of nine who gave me 15 minutes of attention one day that meant the world to me when I was around 8 years old. With your son, I would say less time talking to him about his situation might make him more receptive to your feedback, not that you are doing anything wrong. It is just that people that dig themselves into a big hole usually are the least receptive to feedback, and we often have to tread very carefully to be heard. I hear how you love your son and grandchild, want only the best for them. Keep us posted on how you are doing, and let us know how we can help.

[Danali60]

Thank you again, Zachira, for your reply.  I am following exactly what you are saying.  I find myself being pulled in both directions.  By that I mean the well-meaning advice from others in my family who tell me that the more I do for my son, (such as watching the kids), is only enabling him to enable his uBPD girlfriend, who has been doing everything and anything she can for the past 2 weeks of the breakup to not have to take care of the kids.  So I feel really mixed up about it all.  I offered to watch my grandson this Saturday so he could go to a work event he wanted to attend.  I want to see him get out of the house for awhile and think it would do him good.  I also want to spend time with my grandson.

On the other hand, although this may sound unbelievable, I have been watching it unfold before my eyes that this uBPD mother literally cannot handle her children for any significant length of time.  She only saw her daughter 3 times in two weeks and our grandson twice.  All three times they were returned earlier than her designated time.  As a mother myself, this boggles my mind.  Since my son has been the primary caregiver of the kids all this time (5 years), this has become "the norm" for her and even for him as well. 

What you say about really taking in the attention, even if for a short time, with her daughter is so, so true.  I have been the "surrogate mother" so to speak, to her for all this time.  Unfortunately, I feel due to her mother's continued absences through the child's life, she has developed some very severe behavior problems - acting out, defying authority, not listening when you tell her not to do something, etc...  Because she is not our actual grandchild, and especially now, my husband and I have felt for some time we cannot properly handle her and administer discipline as it should be done, as she does not respond to it.  So, in that respect we feel we are literally "walking on eggshells" there.  My husband out and out refuses to watch her because of this.  I love her dearly and my heart goes out to her as I wonder as she stays at her mother's new apartment, all new surroundings, and my son (her safety net) is not there.  The behavior will probably get worse.

I am terribly worried about the children.  My grandson is almost 3 and I'm not sure how he will exhibit what he is feeling and going through. 

Quite a mess, huh?

I am going to take a step back on giving out the advice and just be the best listener I can be. 

[Danali60]

Dear Panda,

I must have missed your post about the possibility of joining the BPD Family forum.  I would love for him to do this as I think this is a wonderful place for help and sharing with a wealth of information on it.

How do I explain though that he is going to a support group for people who has BPD?  I'm not sure he sees her yet that way.  He will wonder where I came up with this idea to begin with and probably ask.  It seems he has moments of clarity now and then, and then sometimes reverts back to defending her.  Understandable, but frustrating. 

Just not sure how to explain the BPD part to him.  I know she has been in therapy but other than depression he has never said any other diagnosis was given (as far as she told him). 

You may be wondering why I am on here and convinced she has BPD.  I'm certainly not a qualified professional, but this whole idea of BPD came to me from several sources, one of which is a psychologist I saw many years ago when I went through a divorce with my first husband.  After therapy ended and she moved to Florida we stayed in touch with each other and did discuss my son's girlfriend's behavior.  She asked me if I had ever read anything about BPD, so there was my first clue.  My son has a Master's Degree in Psychology and he mentioned it before I told him of my psychologist friend.  I have read everything I can get my hands on and she fits at least 7 of the 9 criteria for BPD, the other two questionable, but maybe. 

Just wanted to explain how I came to be here.

[Panda39]

I did not realize that your son had not made the connection between her behaviors and BPD, so no I would not push it. But I would encourage Therapy for him...somewhere he can get support and an outside perspective.  I know you've encouraged this already.

You really are doing what you can.  The only people we truly control is ourselves we can not make someone else think, believe or do something they don't want to do.  You are making solid suggestions, trying not to pressure him, and letting him know you care and support him all of which is good. 

In terms of BPD or not BPD, none of us here can diagnose but I like you discovered BPD in relation to my partner's ex and the shoe fit like Cinderella's slipper.  When talking to your son you don't have to label the behaviors BPD, you can just address the behaviors. 

How are his girlfriend's behaviors towards the kids when she is around?  How is she when she is around your son?  We might be able to give you some tools or ideas that you can pass along.

Panda39

[Danali60]

Hi Panda,

As far as her behavior with the kids, I can of course only attest to when we have been around to see it.  She is okay with them.  No cuddling, a kiss here or there, or any outward signs of affection.  Her mother is the same way.  When you try to give either of them a hug, as I had tried in the past, it's like they barely want to touch you so you find your and their arms are really only forming a rectangle sort of thing!  LOL!  Not really funny, but hey I have to laugh or I'll cry!  So, they are not outwardly affectionate.  Her frustration tolerance is very low.  She yells at them immediately, never a soft voice, for things they do she doesn't want them doing.  Inappropriate responses are another thing:  Example:  Out to restaurant (both sides of family) and her little girl (age 5) had to go to the restroom.  I told her to ask mommy.  When she went to the opposite end of the table, her mom acted like she was asking for the most ridiculous thing in the world!  "(name), can't you see I'm still eating.  I can't take you right now!  Then turned to my son, who was also eating, and asked him if he could take her.  He took her into the men's room!

Her daughter accidentally had a bathroom accident in the living room while we were there and she humiliated her to no end.  It was horrible.  Her daughter also vomited in the car and the neighbor two doors down told us they could hear her yelling at her from their backyard and came out to see what was going on.  The child was on 2 at the time.

My son must have thought he could "fix" all this by comforting the children, picking up all the slack, and if I hear this comment again from him, I think I might scream:  "I just want to keep the peace."  Ugh!

Sorry I make these posts so long.  I'll try to cut them shorter. 

Thanks for your interest in my issues and advice.  I am very interested in what thoughts you may be having.  In a weird sort of way, our whole family has been affected by her behaviors, and not in a positive way.

[zachira]

It warms my heart that you are caring for your grandchild as much as possible and your son is taking care of his child most of the time. I hope that he is documenting all of this, and maybe you can do so without telling your son. When it comes time for the custody hearing, this all could help. Documentation needs to be done chronologically for it to be valid in Court. The best thing that could happen is for your son to get full custody. You may be able to report the mother to CPS or possibly someone else will do it to help her daughter. I would also keep chronological documentation on the little girl as this is valid for Court and could help at a later time. Right now might not be the time to do a CPS Report and there is nothing to stop you from doing it later when the custody is resolved, particularly if your son gets full custody.
I hear your confusion and frustration with your son and his girlfriend. It is so hard to see ourselves sometimes. You wish you could share with your son what you know about BPD  and likely that will alienate him, so you are wise to keep quiet.
Keep up the good work you are doing to help these young children. It means more than you will probably ever know to them and the kind of future they are likely to have.

[Danali60]

Thank you Zachira for your kind words and advice.  I am actually already documenting everything as it occurs, and I did make my son aware of it.  He was actually thankful, I guess because his mind is so scrambled right now he knows he will not have the time or energy to do it himself.

So, will documentation, dates, events, etc., be considered in court without any proof, do you know?

[zachira]

Chronologically kept documentation is considered proof, like keeping a notebook of everything as it happens with the dates written down. Courts do not want to hear about past events with no documentation. As you will learn when reading "Splitting", people with BPD and NPD are experts at  reinventing the past. It is important to have the documentation for two reasons: 1) It is admissible in Court and considered to be evidence. 2) It can counteract any invented stories by the BPD and NPD.

[zachira]

Just had another thought. You may want to post on our Family Law Board. There are many experienced fathers who post on there who have gotten full custody of their children despite the Courts favoring the mother.

[Danali60]

Zachira, I cannot thank you enough!  Great info to know! 

[Panda39]

zacharia, you saw just where I was going   Great minds think alike.

Danali60,

Yes...Document...Document...Document (obviously this should be done on the down low and kept in a safe place).   Another thing is, that your son does not have to share everything...information about his plans in terms of the his son for example.  Folks with BPD have poor boundaries and will boundary bust but he is under no *obligation to share his plans with her.  In other words play things close to the vest.

*Speaking of obligation don't be surprised to find your son in the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).  FOG is emotional blackmail and is a big tool often used by someone with BPD.  Recognizing FOG/knowing when you are being manipulated can be really helpful in terms of lessening that knee jerk emotional response .  Keep an eye out for it (hint: it usually comes in the form of pressure and usually has some small kernel of truth) recognize it and you can point it out to your son.  The more distance he has from his gf the easier it will be for him to see.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Here is a link to the board zacharia mentioned...

Family Law/Custody/Co-Parenting/Divorce...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=10.0

Not only can you get ideas regarding Custody there is also information there on how you/your son can support his son.

Panda39

[Danali60]

Thank you guys so much!  I really didn't know where to start and at least I have a place now.

It sounds like I'm talking only about me pursuing all this info when it should be now "we" meaning myself, my husband and our son.  I don't even know how he will take all of this.  He is very unpredictable right now, so you are right about the FOG Panda.

He just had a car accident last night (not injured and kids not with him), but the first person he called was his ex-uBPD girlfriend!  She definitely still has a hold on him and he is missing maybe not so much "her" but the companionship and partner he thought he had.  I feel bad for him, and kind of feel like I am working on all this alone on his behalf.  It's hard because when he knew I was documenting events for him, he gave a sigh of relief and hugged me and said thank you so much.  He sees the light sometimes and is ready to admit what she was all about, but then he disappears again into the FOG.  So hard to deal with because I feel he is wasting precious time.  She has been through this before with her daughter and rest assured, she probably has retained a lawyer as I am writing this.  She tells my son she just wants 50/50 custody and doesn't want to go through the courts or anything.  Same story she told dad #1 with her daughter. 

It sounds like the first important thing to do is prove paternity from what I've read.  Since they were never married, at this point, she has full rights to our grandson and can take him and keep him in her custody and there is nothing he can do about it until he proves he is the father - a process she will have to be involved in as well.

Just my opinion but I feel she is suggesting this 50/50 deal because she knows she is incapable of, nor does she want her children half the time.  She has shown that in just the first 2 weeks.  My son has had them 90% of the time.  They sleep there every night, he picks them up and takes them to day care and school, still everything the same as before - Mr. Mom while Mommy is with her new boyfriend playing house (without kids of course).  I see it as a ploy for her to continue to have him keep taking care of the kids, just the same as when they were together and if he mentions court or presents a legal paper to sign, her wrath will appear and he is afraid of that.  It has reared it's ugly head too many times and he knows there are always repercussions if he doesn't do what she says.

Sorry - rambling again!

[GaGrl]

Is your son listed on the birth certificate as father?

[Gemsforeyes]

That was my question, too.  Is your son’s name on the birth certificate?

Since your son spends so much time with your precious grandson, is it fair to assume your son has taken the child to the doctor?  If you believe proving paternity may be needed, perhaps there is a way to do this now, through blood tests with the pediatrician?  I don’t know, I’m just guessing, and maybe there’s no need to involve the uBPDgf...

I am so sorry for what your family is facing here.  It’s heartbreaking, and so much more heart wrenching when there are innocent children involved.

I am certain your son appreciates all you are doing to support him.  I know you know this, and it hurts me to say it...but anything you can do to ingratiate yourself to uBPDgf (communication tools, etc) when you see her, will make things easier on your son and his goals around his child.  Your goals match your son’s.  Sad as it is, we have to swallow our tongues, our words , to save a child.  This seems especially true right now because your son has not broken free yet and there is no agreement.  I believe you want uBPDgf to see you as “friendly” to her.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Danali60]

Dear Gemsforeyes and Gagrl:

Yes, his name is on the birth certificate.  He does take him to the doctor; in fact they were just there 2 weeks ago.  I did read something on the Internet regarding Illinois law for paternity and it stated no copies of DNA tests would be allowed.  I don't know if the having his name on the birth certificate would be enough or not.  I also don't know if it just takes the dad and son's DNA only.  From what I read it sounded like they needed hers too.

I doubt that I will run into his uBPD girlfriend because of how the schedule is set up.  It will be very, very difficult to even look at her much less be nice to her, but I know you are right about that Gemstoneyes.

Thank you both!

[Danali60]

Good morning everyone! 

I have been posting the last few days regarding my son's recent breakup with his uBPD girlfriend (her making the move to breakup) and today she will be moving into her new apartment. 

I guess my question or suggestions I'm asking for this morning is this:  Of course I am in a much different place than my son is.  I realize people have to do things in their own time.  He didn't contact me, husband or brother at all yesterday and has been in contact with us pretty much every day.  I know there is a lot of grieving going on right now - especially now since the house will have a visual emptiness to it with her moving her things out (walls bare, some furniture gone, etc).

When will I know is a good time or the right time to introduce him to the book Splitting (which I am reading now) and to introduce him to the BPD Family?  There is so much here that can help him and this is what I am yearning to do.  Should Mama Bear step back?  Maybe smothering him?  Let him do things in his own time?

The sense of urgency I feel is the legal aspects so he can be ready.  How do you know when the right time is?  Maybe there isn't an answer for this, I don't know.  Just wondered what your thoughts might be.

Thanks!

[zachira]

You might want to learn all you can about motivational interviewing which is a series of techniques originally developed for people with addictions now used in many different settings because of its' success in helping people to get motivated to make changes. It is founded on the premise that people are in different stages of motivation with some having no motivation to do anything. It meets the person where they are at and helps those who are interacting with them to learn how to use change talk which encourages the person to start thinking about making changes and eventually to do so.

[Danali60]

Thank you Zachira. I will look into this. 

[Shona]

Chances are this relationship would have ended sooner or later with her having BPD, and he needs to be reminded of that.
The best thing for the kids is that he (and you guys) are a constant in their lives, and he needs to get legal advice to make sure he can enforce this.
He needs to some how stop engaging and put boudaries up around her involvement in his life and the kids.  It is still important that she is involved with them, but that there are boundaries.  But it will take time, and no doubt he will go through a lot of tormoil until he learns.
She will likely come in and out of their lives for many years, which is why they need other constant caregivers.
My sister with BPD, was a loving mother but still abandoned her kids twice and just left them to live with friends families.  Unfortantly the father lived overseas and didn't make the sacrifice to take care of them.  Thankfully the kids have grown up to be good kids, because she was such a loving mother early on.  They know how their mother is, and they have learnt not to react to her.

[Harri]

This thread has reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336252.msg13050610#msg13050610