Should I tell my SIL that my daughter has BPD?

[Mimi1955]

Hello. My adult daughter was diagnosed with BPD at age 18 by a Psychiatrist after she finished school with very poor results. Then a period of extreme behaviour which included lying, stealing from us and others, credit card fraud  and depression. I The Psychiatrist thought she might have ADHD although he said could be just the depression. He did trial her on Ritalin. I also met with the Psychiatrist who had been seeing her for a year. He said she had also developed a narcissistic persona - being charming in her school years so the teachers did not hold her to account for her lack of application. I asked him how guilty should I feel? I had revealed everything about myself, my marriage and her childhood. He said it was a cocktail - first was traumatic birth with high forceps and pre eclampsia. He believes this resulted in minimal brain damage which played out in IQ tests she did which showed her as incredibly bright in some areas and low  in other areas of brain functioning. This resulted in self esteem issues as she tried to cover her deficiencies - she was smart enough to know something was wrong with her. Also she was born into a high achieving family with a younger brother with a genius IQ and many other gifts. Yes - there was dysfunction in her family but apparently within the normal range. However her behaviour was typical of someone who had been severely and possibly sexually abused and suffered significant traumatic events. I have asked her about sexual abuse and she says definitely not. The Dr said the other and he believed main contributing factor was her temperament/ genes. Almost a decade of hell followed including drug addiction and two stints in Rehab. A decade ago  she married a very stable loving successful man and has 3 beautiful children. I asked her if she had shared her history as she absolutely must. before they were engaged and she vowed that she had. She keeps up an amazing front - looks like a perfect, glossy magazine life. My daughter only shows very few people in the world her out of. control self - namely myself, my husband and my sister. She presents as charming and loving to the rest of the world. But things unravel periodically and she has spent time in hospital in the last year with severe stomach pain. Her  Dr recently told her that there is no physical basis. He just now put her into a mental health clinic for assessment. My poor beautiful son in law broke down yesterday and my dilemma is that I absolutely know that he does not know what he is dealing with. I can tell that she is telling him or has told him in the past that it was all to do with her childhood. Part of the pattern when she is not coping or has behaved very badly is that she blames my husband and I for everything. It is either a global blaming ( you are the world’s worst mother) or she recalls one event and magnifies/ distorts it. This has been incredibly painful. Plus she engages in splitting - I am either totally good or evil. She has demonised my husband and believes that I chose him over her. She has also at times tried to turn him against me. I I totally get now after taking much of it on for years,  that it is far easier for her to blame us for all the shocking things she has done than take any accountability. About 2 years ago when In one episode I saw other people affected such as my mother and grandson, I laid it all at her feet - everything she had done to us. I also exposed her behaviour at the time to her husband as it was so abusive. I set boundaries and told her that I was not going to let the abuse continue. My belief is  that this will all go around again in another circle. She will pull herself together and put up the mask until it happens again. My dilemma is - should I speak to my son in law to give him this information which I feel very confident that he doesn’t have? My daughter is expert at convincing herself and others. My only interest is in supporting him and our Grandkids. I don’t believe I can help my daughter. But If my daughter does not receive the right treatment then I fear she will not improve and we will all continue to suffer. How do you begin to tell someone such a complex story and should I? I would appreciate any insights. Thank you.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

Hi Mimi
I am so glad to meet you and so sad about the circumstances. It must be terribly hard to feel like you are being pulled in different directions at once, wanting the best for your daughter and for your son in law. First things first. What do you think will happen if you tell your SIL about your daughter's condition? Will such an action lead to positive change or create more occasion for conflict?

Post away! We are here for you.

[Only Human]

Hello Mimi!

Along with Faith, I welcome you to the group! You are not alone in feeling as you do, I'm glad you came here for support and guidance.

Faith asks important questions - let's start there and see what we can come up with together. We are here for you and we want to help.

~ OH

[Mimi1955]

Dear Faith and OH

Thank you so much - your empathy is appreciated as I am feeling down and unsure. After my post, I wrote up some notes. My motivation is - how can my son in law help her get the right treatment if he doesn't actually know her story and condition? It broke my heart to see another victim to all this suffering and he is a beautiful person. Please read below and I would appreciate your thoughts. Son in law - N (43), daughter E (40) Husband - P (64)
With gratitude 


 
   
       Educating my son in law
« on: May 05, 2019, 12:44:43 PM »    Excerpt  Modify
   

Additional notes to myself –
•   this is a huge decision for me for the first time to speak openly and honestly to N about E and her history. While I worry about her and have immense sadness, I don’t believe I can help her. She has distanced me ever since I strongly called out her behaviour two years ago and said – stop, no more abuse and it’s time you took accountability for all that you have done. I am not fooled by who she presents to the world and she knows this, so I am much safer at a distance. My motivation is 100% to support N and the kids.
•   It is incredibly bewildering for anyone who has no experience with personality disorders to understand it. It took me years and I have a Master’s degree in Clinical Psychology from a highly respected US University and I have considerable relevant life and work experience in this space. It is  especially difficult if you are seen as positive by the person concerned and you are in their sunshine. E's symptoms have improved dramatically since she was in her twenties and there is no question she has found enormous stability with N. N is currently bewildered and I do not know how much he sees and understands. I suspect he must see some behaviours but not enough to put together the long term pattern. For example he said to me today that the reason she has fallen apart now is because she has just come off anti depressants which really affected her moods badly and hence her heavy drinking at Easter.  What is the explanation for the Easter before and the one before that? E is extremely charming with everyone she includes in her wide circle. They do not ever see her destructive, abusive behaviour (which is much rarer these days). She has left behind all friendships from her past and pretty well all her friends are post and via N.
•   Borderline Personality Disorder is treatable with therapy and does seem to get better in many people over time. If it is not diagnosed correctly, the chances are much diminished. E has a more complex diagnosis with more than just BPD – she puts up a socially desirable, self-protective mask to the world – perfection, control, physical beauty, charming, competent. Also she projects outwards and blames us for all her actions. She has not shown the strength or capacity to take any ownership. It is all very believable as it is commonly accepted that while BPD has a genetic origin, there is often a history of childhood abuse. It would take a highly skilled clinician to diagnose her, as she presents so credibly, as picture perfect. The Psychiatrist in Brisbane was clinical in his manner and called E out on her behaviour and so she actively disliked and rejected him. His diagnosis of BPD (now hidden from mostly everyone, most of the time) and the self-protective narcissistic mask of perfection (still very present) has been borne out. While she puts up this mask and hiding from everyone, her private pain and struggle, the façade continues and she remains untreated.
•   There was so much anguish in the decade when E went off the rails. I am unsure of how much to tell N for him to click in to the severity of the issues. Apart from unbelievable angst as we navigated crisis after crisis, it literally cost P and I tens and tens of thousands of dollars. What was worse was taking on the enormous heartbreaking anguish of parental guilt which was laid repeatedly at our feet by E. These scenarios are too painful to detail but here are a few examples of the financial abuse  –
1.   Credit cards stolen and used. One time P rang me when I was on the way to take E to the Psychiatrist and he had just received a statement from a card that he had never used for 10K. I was sobbing my heart out in his office with E there, who first of all lied about it and then was forced to admit it. The Dr observed to E that she appeared to have zero empathy for her distraught mother. There were many times when she stole and used our cards. I learnt to lock my keys in the car and sleep with them in my pocket.
2.   Identity theft – E took a loan out in my name for thousands of dollars. She also stole the credit card of a lady who befriended her. E flew to Melbourne – masqueraded as her, stayed at the Park Hyatt and put 20K on her credit card.
3.   Threatening phone calls from people who claimed she owed money. We paid one person 10K as otherwise he was reporting her to the police.
4.   Breaking into the home of her friends mother, after she had just left school and stealing the mothers jewellery. He mother pressed charges and we spent thousands of dollars on legal fees. (E then blamed me for her losing her school friends)
The list goes on and on and I am sure I have blocked much of it out.
 
P and I are burnt out re dealing with E’s behaviours. However that does not mean that we escape worry and distress. This distress felt like despair when I saw N collapsing under the emotional strain. While his relationship with E is far less complicated than ours, the stress and confusion is huge.
 
After E was going out with N for a while, I said she must out of fairness and a moral duty, speak to him honestly about her story. She vowed to me that she had done so and that his response was that he loved her even more. I wasn’t 100% sure at the time that was the case and now I have even more doubts. At the time, of course I felt I could not say anything to N about his relationship with E and we have tried to step back and support the marriage in practical ways. But now I feel out of fairness and to help him help the right specialists help E, he needs to know the true story or at least the rest of the story. My other worry is that if he tells E about my conversation, she will go into a tailspin and make the focus all about my betrayal and try and convince N further that indeed it was her childhood. All this misplaced energy could detract her from doing the work she needs to do on herself. I would ask him to seek professional advice and assistance on this matter. While I would be happy if it could help, to speak to a professional, my preference is to have nothing further to do with E’s treatment and to focus on being a good Grandparent with P.
 

 

[Only Human]

Thanks for sharing your thought process with us, Mimi, it's clear that you care about your SIL and have concerns about how your daughter's behavior is affecting him. You're in a very difficult position, no doubt about that. These are the things you posted that jumped out at me:

She has distanced me ever since I strongly called out her behaviour two years ago

[...]
My motivation is 100% to support N and the kids.

[...]
N is currently bewildered and I do not know how much he sees and understands. I suspect he must see some behaviours but not enough to put together the long term pattern. For example he said to me today that the reason she has fallen apart now is because she has just come off anti depressants which really affected her moods badly

[...]
 
After E was going out with N for a while, I said she must out of fairness and a moral duty, speak to him honestly about her story. She vowed to me that she had done so and that his response was that he loved her even more.

[...]

I feel out of fairness and to help him help the right specialists help E, he needs to know the true story or at least the rest of the story.

[...]
My other worry is that if he tells E about my conversation, she will go into a tailspin

[...]
my preference is to have nothing further to do with E’s treatment and to focus on being a good Grandparent with P.

I think you're right about the possible fall-out if your D learns you've spoken to your SIL. She may feel betrayed by you, especially if she's told a different version that he believes. Your SIL may very well be aware that her behavior is due to something other than "going off meds," but, for whatever reason, is hanging his hat on this one. It's not fun when we start to see cracks in the facade of our loved ones.

My GS's father broke his sobriety from meth and was gone all night and my D was sick with worry, thinking he was in the hospital, dead in a ditch, the worst. He showed up the next morning, covered in mosquito bites and told a fantastic tale: He was walking down a busy road and a car was out of control. To avoid being hit by the car, he jumped over the guardrail and rolled down the hill, nearly into the creek by our house. His phone was dead so he couldn't call. He cried out all night for help because he had sprained his ankle and couldn't climb back to the street. Finally, at 5am, someone in a nearby house heard him, gathered him up, and brought him to the emergency room. He claimed staff wouldn't allow him to use the telephone to call my daughter, and he walked home wearing a hospital gown and ID wristband. He walked home, on a sprained ankle.

I didn't believe the story for a minute, my DD appeared to buy it, hook-line-and-and sinker. It took everything for me to not call him out, or to tell my DD that I thought he was full of

Months later, she told me, "I knew his story was BS. But I wanted to believe him because, if I didn't I would have to admit to myself that I stayed with someone who I didn't trust and, how lame is that? Who would stay?" She also told me she knew I didn't believe him and she thanked me for keeping my mouth shut. Incidentally, they are no longer together.

I don't know if any of this is helpful, it's just what came flying out of my fingertips.

I don't know if you've had a chance to look around, but we also have a board where you may get some insight into what your SIL may be experiencing. Here's a link:

Relationship Partner with BPD (heterosexual or gay) > Romantic Relationship | Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup

~ OH

[Lollypop]

Hi mimi

I’m keeping this intentionally short as I can. Welcome.

We all have a commonality. We enable and we like to fix our kids problems. I stunted my son’s development and he resisted taking responsibility for himself.

We cannot change others, only ourselves. For treatment to work, a full commitment is needed and it is best they seek it for themselves.

My thoughts are that you’re in a difficult situation. It’s complex and you’re in danger of not being able to recognise what you are responsible for and not. You are close to their problems. Whatever I wanted to do I could always justify it to myself - that’s not being wise.

Your SIL has sought emotional support from you and you want to tell him your D’s story. There will be consequences. None of us truly knows what goes on in another’s Marriage. You don’t know if your D told you SIL. All you know is there is a problem in their relationship which is their responsibility.

What can you do?

I’d say use wisemind. Listen, watch. Emotionally support using validation and SET. Don’t criticise one to the other (your fears are your own). Don’t interfere but demonstrate the behaviours you’d like to see in them - poor communication is at the core of an unhealthy relationship. They need to start talking to one another, really connecting.

I understand you want to fix. It’s awful to see them suffer. I wonder if a gentle suggestion (see, here’s me fixing! Ha!) of a marriage guidance counsellor. You can stay away from that role and focus on your grandkids while they sort out their problems.

That’s my thoughts.

LP

[Mimi1955]

Dear OH and LP thank you so much for your wisdom. I looked after the Grandkids today. My SIL came  back this evening with a huge spring in his step. E is coming home tomorrow. He told me she is in a great space, had a great day and went to a therapy session which gave her great clarity. Poor kind man is in denial. How on earth does anyone be in a supposedly major depressive state for 3 days, check into a mental health facility, have a couple of therapy sessions and get great clarity and now be AOK? It is ridiculous! But I just nodded and told him that I was glad he is feeling better and got on my way. It has taken me a lifetime but I don’t want to get involved with E at all. My focus is totally on the kids and of course N when the next crash happens. It has been a very stressful time and I am moving on and leaving them to deal with the drama. I am truly so grateful for your insights. I feel calmer. The sadness is there and it is hard knowing that we again will be gaslighted but all I can do is politely walk away from future dramas and  focus on the Grandkids.

[FaithHopeLove]

Walking away from dramas is a great idea. I am learning to do that too. Sometimes helping isn't helping and we need to step aside.

[Mimi1955]

PS - can someone please elaborate on Wise Mind and SET - strategies that were referred to in this helpful thread.

[wendydarling]

Hello Mimi  

Here, from our extensive community built knowledge base.

1.16 | Communicate - S.E.T (Support, Empathy and Truth)

1.20 | Triggering, Mindfulness and the Wisemind

Helpful?

Glad you found us, welcome.

WDx

[Hopeandjoy]

I asked her if she had shared her history as she absolutely must.
My poor beautiful son in law broke down yesterday and my dilemma is that I absolutely know that he does not know what he is dealing with.
I can tell that she is telling him or has told him in the past that it was all to do with her childhood. Part of the pattern when she is not coping or has behaved very badly is that she blames my husband and I for everything.
she recalls one event and magnifies/ distorts it. She has also at times tried to turn him against me.
My dilemma is - should I speak to my son in law to give him this information which I feel very confident that he doesn’t have?  My only interest is in supporting him and our Grandkids.

I would like to appreciate the fact that you have considered how you may have contributed to your daughter's PD.

If you believe your son in law or Gkids are in danger, you should call the police or CPS. There is no excuse for telling your son in law private information about your daughter.

Her marriage is her sacred space to share her perspective and live out her convictions. You mentioned that she is prly telling him bad stuff about you, if that makes you uncomfortable you can distance yourself from her husband. You don't have to like the decisions she makes, but disclosing information to her social network would be a serious violation of your daughter's right to be seen positively despite making mistakes.

I think you need some boundaries b/w you and your son in law. If he opens up to you again I would suggest you go in for a group counseling session so everyone can talk in a setting where each person is supported.

It does not feel good to be blamed, I'm sorry you're dealing with that. I imagine your daughter feels labeled and blamed for the conflict. Your daughter sees things differently than you do bc you are two separate people. she will cooperate if you accept her viewpoint despite how distorted it sounds to you.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Hopeandjoy]

how can my son in law help her get the right treatment if he doesn't actually know her story and condition? It broke my heart to see another victim to all this suffering and he is a beautiful person. 

I understand you feel that treatment would help, but your daughter may not agree. You can set boundaries so you are not being hurt by your daughter's behavior.

Your SIL and Gkids are not your responsibility. It's best you distance yourself from your SIL. You can enjoy your Gkids despite their mother's behavior, just remember that seeing them is a privilege. If you try to work around your daughter in this situation, she will be defensive and you will lose out with the Gkids.

NEVER talk negatively to your SIL or Gkids about your daughter. Let her make mistakes. Always encourage your SIL and Gkids to see her positively. This is what support looks like. If you keep getting between your SIL and daughter, she will continue to defend herself. If you succeed in dividing her marriage you may lose your relationships with your daughter and Gkids entirely.

[Lollypop]

Hi Mimi

I’m so glad you feel more calm about your situation and have a plan forming in your head about the approach you take.

I see WD has kindly linked in some reading links for you. I’m sure you will gain a lot from them. Keep on asking questions.

It’s important that whatever you choose to do feels comfortable for you and your family. Each of our situations is different, we are quite unique.

This journey is about improving relationships, gently. Of course, better limits and boundaries are needed. Just as understanding where responsibilities lie. If you can focus on learning better interaction skills here and put YOUR relationships at the forefront and be  emotionally supportive and confident I hope you’ll find things improve for you.

Your sil sounds a wonderful man who cares for his children and daughter. Your lucky to have him and your daughter extremely lucky to have him AND YOU.

I encourage you to learn about how to better interact . I found SET quite difficult to get to sound natural. I practised and even sometimes put my conversations up on here for advice on how to improve. I found I needdd to shorten my statements and leave them hanging in the air. When in doubt, just ask.

I’d come here with a problem and leave to think about how I solve it. I still do!

Let’s all be gentle with ourselves and others. It’s about calming situations not elevating.

I’m glad you’re here.

LP

[Mimi1955]

Thank you WD for the resources. To hope and joy - you want to appreciate how I have contributed to my daughters BPD - I found this most unhelpful. When she was 18 I asked her Psychiatrist- how guilty should I feel? I am like most mothers -,desperately wanting my children to be happy and healthy. I have apologised sincerely to my daughter for everything I have done unintentionally to cause her pain and damage.

[Hopeandjoy]

When she was 18 I asked her Psychiatrist- how guilty should I feel? I am like most mothers -,desperately wanting my children to be happy and healthy. I have apologised sincerely to my daughter for everything I have done unintentionally to cause her pain and damage.

These are complicated feelings most parents here can relate to. It's best to sort out your responsibilities from hers, between you and her. We can support your emotions during this process, but getting us to validate who's to blame will further polarize the conflict you two have.

[FaithHopeLove]

Hi Mimi
Just checking in to see how you are doing. I relate to what you said about feeling guilty and wondering if you caused your DD s BPD. I used to do that too and you know what? It was useless. I know I did my best. More importantly I know I will keep doing better for my sake and for my son's sake. I am sure you are an excellent mother who loves her child deeply. Please be kind and gentle with yourself. Hugs.

[Mimi1955]

Dear Hope and Joy - I am not asking you or anyone to validate who is to blame. I was sharing my suffering at being blamed by our daughter for all her struggles. And my pain at seeing my SIL so bewildered and my uncertainty about what I should do. I guess this is the trouble with online platforms.
I wrote my first post on this site in a state of distress. I didn't know the best way forward.It was helpful to receive some very understanding and wise insights about boundaries.

Dear Faith Hope and Joy - thank you for your kindness and checking in. I have a lot of clarity but I need to find a place of peace. I am going to seek some counselling.

[FaithHopeLove]

Mimi I am so glad you are seeking counseling. I am in therapy too and it helps a lot. You are not alone.