Should I stay or should I go

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

After a very tumultuous 2018 with my BPD husband, I filed for divorce.  The shortened version of our marriage is that we have been married for now 39 years.  With the vast majority of those years my BPD husband acting out in major infidelity, including porn, anonymous sex, massage parlors, etc.  He confessed to all of this in 2011 and we began to rebuild a relationship.  This past year my BPD husband made the choice to retire, although he is now just shy of being 62 years old.  This decision to retire, along with making a move that he has repeatedly told me over and over, he is not happy about, ended up in him being so emotionally off that I began to do some research.  I landed at this BPD site and have been told by more than one therapist that my husband likely has at least some traits or perhaps BPD with narcissistic tendencies.
All of 2018 felt incredibly stressful and my husband's words to me were emotionally and verbally abusive.  I have been told by more than therapist (again) that he is abusive, that he gaslights me, that he has narcissistic tendencies, etc. 
When I did file for divorce and he moved out, he became nicer.  He emailed me and we began to talk and decided to give it another try.
After about 6 weeks of things going better between us, everything good stopped and he began ranting and raging to me about the damage I did to him this past year with the divorce, etc.  He adds to his list the list of wrongs I have done to him.  He says I am not sorry and that I feel justified.  I have shared I am sorry for what I did to hurt him and that I own my own behavior.  But that I was also hurt and felt abused by him. 
He is now saying I have created a 'narrative' of abuse in order to justify my actions.  This type of communication seems ongoing to the point where we really have had no decent normal conversations between us for at least a month, if not longer. 
I am practicing the getting up and leaving when he starts in with rage or even demeaning talk.  He gets angry and says I am shutting him down and that I am acting like a baby, etc.
My question is that I feel it is for the best to stay with him in marriage as this seems the only way to keep our family intact with our grown children and grandchildren.  I am starting to even doubt that as I can see our grown children have lost respect for their dad.  I told my children in very general terms this past year what happened in our marriage with regard to infidelity and how I have felt verbally abused.  Our children were already knowledgeable of things that have happened in the marriage as they were witnesses to them numerous times.  Also, I have been told by at least one or our children that I allow their dad to speak down to me.
So back to the question...is there a time when I say there is no way I can do this any longer, that there is zero hope of things calming down or getting better?  or if in the long run, either staying or leaving will not change the dynamics of our family as it already feels so damaged?
I am hoping this storm will blow over and he will settle down but with it pretty much staying the same since early in 2018, I am not feeling so sure it will.

[lonely38]

After a very tumultuous 2018 with my BPD husband, I filed for divorce.  The shortened version of our marriage is that we have been married for now 39 years.  With the vast majority of those years my BPD husband acting out in major infidelity, including porn, anonymous sex, massage parlors, etc.  He confessed to all of this in 2011 and we began to rebuild a relationship.  This past year my BPD husband made the choice to retire, although he is now just shy of being 62 years old.  This decision to retire, along with making a move that he has repeatedly told me over and over, he is not happy about, ended up in him being so emotionally off that I began to do some research.  I landed at this BPD site and have been told by more than one therapist that my husband likely has at least some traits or perhaps BPD with narcissistic tendencies.
All of 2018 felt incredibly stressful and my husband's words to me were emotionally and verbally abusive.  I have been told by more than therapist (again) that he is abusive, that he gaslights me, that he has narcissistic tendencies, etc. 
When I did file for divorce and he moved out, he became nicer.  He emailed me and we began to talk and decided to give it another try.
After about 6 weeks of things going better between us, everything good stopped and he began ranting and raging to me about the damage I did to him this past year with the divorce, etc.  He adds to his list the list of wrongs I have done to him.  He says I am not sorry and that I feel justified.  I have shared I am sorry for what I did to hurt him and that I own my own behavior.  But that I was also hurt and felt abused by him. 
He is now saying I have created a 'narrative' of abuse in order to justify my actions.  This type of communication seems ongoing to the point where we really have had no decent normal conversations between us for at least a month, if not longer. 
I am practicing the getting up and leaving when he starts in with rage or even demeaning talk.  He gets angry and says I am shutting him down and that I am acting like a baby, etc.
My question is that I feel it is for the best to stay with him in marriage as this seems the only way to keep our family intact with our grown children and grandchildren.  I am starting to even doubt that as I can see our grown children have lost respect for their dad.  I told my children in very general terms this past year what happened in our marriage with regard to infidelity and how I have felt verbally abused.  Our children were already knowledgeable of things that have happened in the marriage as they were witnesses to them numerous times.  Also, I have been told by at least one or our children that I allow their dad to speak down to me.
So back to the question...is there a time when I say there is no way I can do this any longer, that there is zero hope of things calming down or getting better?  or if in the long run, either staying or leaving will not change the dynamics of our family as it already feels so damaged?
I am hoping this storm will blow over and he will settle down but with it pretty much staying the same since early in 2018, I am not feeling so sure it will.

[Cat Familiar]

While we certainly cannot advise you one way or another, you know him well after being married just shy of 40 years.

So many of us who get involved with people with BPD or NPD are people pleasers and we want everyone to be happy. Unfortunately that often leaves us being very unhappy since we put up with behavior that is unkind and thoughtless.

I know you were worried about what your children thought when you decided to divorce your husband. These family rifts always generate collateral damage and there's no way that everybody will be happy with any decision you make.

Base your decision on what you would like to experience in the next 10-30 years. Ask yourself truly what would make your life better--staying or leaving.

[formflier]

Ugggg...what can we do to keep this between you and your husband?  I can't imagine that involving your children will in any way help the situation.

Can we take a first step of leaving them out of this...?

FF

[lonely38]

I am totally leaving my children out of any decision making and any sharing of what is going on until I make up my mind.  I am at my wit's end, completely exhausted and full of anxiety.  Going to therapy today and hoping it helps with calming.

It makes me very sad that our children have been witness to so much destruction.  Because of such a volatile marriage, I ended up putting all of my hopes and dreams into our children.  I do not regret doing that and am proud of who they are as adults.

But at this point, it seems I have hung on solely for the sake of family.  And they are all grown and have lives of their own.  Because there seems to be no good left in the marriage, I am back to reconsidering divorce.  Which makes me very sad after a lifetime of trying.

[formflier]

What can you do to sit with your sadness for a while?  That seems like a real place to be for a while.  How do you care for yourself when sad?

I am totally leaving my children out of any decision making and any sharing of what is going on until I make up my mind. 

Why involved them after you make up your mind? 

The marriage is about you and your husband.  Every additional person that is involved complicates things exponentially.

It may be wise to involve professionals.  In fact I would suggest that.  You have a lot of history.  From your story a lot of it is very emotional. 

I'm at about 24 years of history with about 5-6 "bad years".  Things are much better in the last few.  Even then I see a psychologist weekly to help me sort out "my" future and what I can do to guide my family.

From your story it would seem that many of your years are "bad".  Do I have that right? 

What is your history with therapy?  Your hubby?  Any marriage counseling?

FF

[formflier]

  I am back to reconsidering divorce.  

Can you take us back to the point in time where you had 6 good weeks, he starts ranting again.  Help me understand the decision to not walk away from the rant.  There is likely something very important in that decision.

FF

[lonely38]

We have been to numerous therapists.  He decides they are against him and for me or they are not doing any good.  We have started to yet another marriage therapist in the last couple of months and it is the same thing.  He feels the therapist is not helping.

I am going to a trauma therapist regularly to try and find ways to calm myself down.  I can do that when I am not with my BPD husband.  Unfortunately, I have a very hard time calming down when is near as he is throwing all kinds of bad vibes, communication etc toward me.

Most of our marriage has been very tough due to the decades of infidelity, the lying, and what I am now finally understanding to be the gaslighting he has used on me.  I have been told by 2 therapists that he has used gaslighting, that he has abused me verbally and emotionally, etc.

If he would calm down, I would consider staying.  But at this point, I just do not see him calming down.  I kind of think that because I filed for divorce, he feels I have ruined whatever good name he had left. He has told me he is bitter about what happened.  He has a long list of the wrongs I committed to hurt him in the last year.  But when I share that the last year was very tough for me with regard to stress and his hurtful, bullying, demeaning words, he tells me I have created a narrative of abuse and that this is not accurate.  He tells me I am prideful and on and on and on.

It just never seems to get better and I am at my wits end.

[Cat Familiar]

So on one side of the balance we have infidelity, lying, verbal and emotional abuse.

On the other side we have "prideful," "ruining his good name," "a narrative of abuse"?

Imagine you are reading the above from another poster here.  How would you respond to their post?

[formflier]

We have been to numerous therapists.  He decides they are against him and for me or they are not doing any good.  

It's telling that you post about his opinions and desires and not yours.

Do you see this?

FF

[lonely38]

That is interesting.  What does that say about me? 

[Cat Familiar]

What do you think it says about you?

[lonely38]

Well, since I am not functioning well mentally these days, I am not sure?

[lonely38]

Except that it is ok to have my opinions and ideas about life and how it is ok to figure out myself all by myself? 

[formflier]

Where is your focus? 

Where do you spend your "mental energy"?

FF

[GaGrl]

You do not sound clear. Can you get away for a few days?

[lonely38]

We, my husband and I, were just gone for 2 weeks.  The problem is if I leave, he follows.  We have a home in another state and we were there.  I went by myself there and then he came. 

I will be gone for a few days by myself in June and will also have 4 days by myself a different weekend in June while he is away. I do better when I am away from and can catch a break from the 'crazy'.

I honestly believe I have thought and thought and thought.  I just have never put much into action.  My therapist says I suffer from pretty severe ptsd, which I can totally see.  I also realize I have become a very codependent person.  While I realize, that with the help of the therapist,  I am doing better, I have a very long way to go.  It is difficult to undo the thought processes I have created over the years in order to survive.

[formflier]

  The problem is if I leave, he follows.  

Even if you tell him you need alone time?

Does he have a tracking device on you?   (serious question..we run across that here from time to time).

How often do you meet with your therapist? 

How long have you been doing individual therapy with this therapist?

Is self care part of what you guys have or are working on? 

What is the current focus of your therapy?

FF

[lonely38]

Good questions

I tell my husband if am going somewhere as in heading back home from out of state etc. So if I leave to head back home, then he automatically does the same.  It is not that I go to the store, etc., and he follows.

I am seeing a trauma therapist who is helping with self care, emdr calming, etc.  She specializes in helping trauma victims, including spouses of borderlines.  I have been seeing her for about 8 months and she has helped tremendously in helping to understand the dynamics of the marriage.

She has said I have used anxiety as a tool to keep my family intact, especially with raising children.  She is working with me on learning to detach and to focus on myself.  There are things that are going to take a while to undo as I have been so involved in this type of living for now 40 years.

The idea of an actual diagnosis of BPD, or any other type of mental illness, has been an epiphany for me and now helps me to understand the irrational behavior of my BPD husband. 

When I gave him notice this past year of divorce, he became very angry, controlling, abusive.  (he was already exhibiting all of these behaviors, especially so in the last year but they definitely increased in intensity after I filed).  When he did move out, then he became calmer and more interested in working on things in the marriage.  Thus the decision to try again.  Of course, as I mentioned, earlier, that only lasted maybe 6 weeks until his bullying, raging, demeaning self kicked back in. 

He tells me over and over I need to drop the narrative that he is abusive.

From reading this site, I am see a lot more similarities to what others says.  My husband is fixated on his health problems and constantly makes appointments with doctors.  He has had many surgeries over the years on neck, knees, ankle, etc.  He never does what the doctor says and surgeries never go well.  Then he is angry with the doctor and blames them for messing him up.  He has blamed me for his bad ankle as he had ankle surgery last fall during our marital falling apart and says because I did this to him that his ankle is a mess.

We purchased a new vehicle this year and he decides it is a lemon and takes it back to the dealership over and over.  He gets upset with anyone who works on our house and says they are doing a horrible job.  He will go to get a hair cut and then come and cut it more himself.  He gets angry with other drives on the road and cuts them off or drives too close to them. When I tell him I am afraid and that he was too close to another vehicle, he tells me I always support the other person.

He has shown a willingness to break the law since early childhood including drinking and driving, using drugs, stealing (when he was a kid) and other juvenile delinquent types of behavior as a young person.  He became very promiscuous early in his teens.  His family life was very dysfunctional, so he created his own reality with a group of friends.  They would literally sleep out at the park and tell their parents they were at some other house.  All of this is the completely opposite of me and so all of these behaviors have felt extremely threatening to me over the years. Threatening in that I never dreamed this would be a person in my own family with this kind of behavior.

I am anxious while with him.  When I get time by myself, I can calm down and enjoy myself and friends as well as work and other activities.  I just cannot do this with him.  I have a good group of friends who are very supportive and have a career that I have had success in.  These are good outlets for me.

I started therapy this past year because I wanted to learn new techniques in dealing with him to see if it might help our relationship.  While I can see these techniques may help me in the long run, I just do not see that he will be able to make any big or sustainable changes in his sixties.

In the last year, my health has declined.  I have gained weight, ended up on antidepressants, anti anxiety meds, blood pressure meds, etc.  I have terrible problems with insomia.  I know in my heart that if I could get some space from him, that my health would improve

I think about actual divorce and the fear of how that would look. In my mind, these days the fears are getting less and less.  This is nothing I want as I intended to grow older with this man. Unfortunately, his crazy has escalated so much in the last year or two that it has become next to impossible to be with him.  He has had other health stuff including many concussions as a young person and I wonder if that might be impacting him.  But he can behave himself while around other people and knows how charm the pants off of pretty much anyone if needed.  So I know he is capable of being a decent human around me.

[Copycat2018]

This is a very challenging situation that you describe finding yourself in and you feel anxiety, and exhaustion, that does not help finding a strategy out.

I feel for you since i am in a very similar conundrum. I realize that i need all i can put into this to find a solution but at the same time i am overwhelmed and exhausted.

No doubt that your husband has his troubled personality from early on that he seems unable to control and then he mismanages the situation. Including his response to you, a good ally he could use.
He alienated you and turns you against himself.

Then he does not like what he did and blames it on you.
What a confused being!

If you can leave him, and decide to do so, good luck to you!

If you can firm up and call him out like others would ( no doubt that is why he is charming with them while rude with you) which is nearly impossible when living together, but maybe the only possibility to try, good luck to you!

[AskingWhy]

There is a good book by Lundy Bancroft called, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?: A Guide to Knowing if Your Relationship Can--and Should--be Saved."

This is a workbook on how to assess a R/S and decide on whether a man who is abusive is capable of changing for the better.

Bancroft is an expert on abusive men.  He also wrote, "Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men."

https://www.amazon.com/Should-Stay-Relationship-Can-Should-be/dp/042523889X

[lonely38]

Thank you for the tip on the book.  I really appreciate it.  I looked it up on Amazon and on the website suggested for the book.  I have read boatloads of self help books on how to make things better.  Guess how many my BPD husband has read?  Next to nothing.  The one book that we did together when he confessed major infidelity 8 years ago was a book about marriage and intimacy.  We actually read it out loud together and it was healing at the time.

I believe he loves me.  But the sad fact is that he hates himself so much that his dislike of himself is projected onto me.  He is very good at doing things for me, including help around the house, small repairs that I ask him to do, even cooking meals.  He seems to thrive when I ask him to do something, although sometimes he is rude in his reply when I ask him to do something.

There is a small hurt boy inside him.  I have witnessed him demonstrating this with dropping his shoulders like a small child might when they are unhappy.  I believe at this point, if there is a chance of our marriage surviving, it is going to be making changes with better boundaries and enforcing those boundaries.  I am on Henry Cloud's site, boundaries.me and doing lots of course work on boundaries.
I am realizing how I need to work on self boundaries, including how I react to my BPD husband.

It is yet to be decided how this story of marriage will end.  For the time being, our children have really separated themselves from us. This has been very hurtful and heart breaking.  I am realizing, however, that our children are hurting from what they have witnessed.  They are also probably fearful over what will happen next.  For them, they are perhaps subconsiously backing away partly because they do not want to truly re-engage with us until they have an idea of how our marriage will go.

Although my choice for a relationship with children is certainly not this, I am working hard on honoring their needs during this time.  It is interesting to see the dynamics of a dysfunctional family and the ripple effect from the dysfunction.  Something I never in a million years I thought I would be a part of.

[Cat Familiar]

Perhaps your adult children are backing away because they don't want to be seen as siding with either parent.

Boundaries are essential and you may be shocked to realize how few you've had and enforced in your many years of married life. You got married young and at a time when there was a beginning of a cultural change in the strict gender roles. Men of that era grew up with the idea of being a dominant masculine power in the marriage and women were accustomed to being in a supportive role, but these patterns were beginning to be less rigid and more fluid.

[AskingWhy]

Perhaps your adult children are backing away because they don't want to be seen as siding with either parent.

In my marriage, as soon as discord is apparent, the adult children of my uBPD H side with him against me and urge divorce. (They want access of all of H's money.) All of his children are in some range of the BPD and NPD spectrums.

Lonely,  I would recommend a full, emotionless analysis of your R/S.  At some point, you will arrive at a decision that is best for you.  As your H in incapable of empathy, as pwBPD are, your safety and feelings should be the most important.

[lonely38]

Thank you for your reply.  I am trying to get better boundaries with my BPD husband to see if we can perhaps change the communication styles between us.

Yesterday morning he came back from a trip.  I made the poor decision to share some information with him that I should have known was not a safe topic to discuss with him.  He came back with more criticism.  When I tried to change the subject, he called me prideful and said my new approach was not going to work.  Then the rest of the day he ignored me.  He is drinking a lot these days, smoking.  The doctor has told him that his body is a heart attack waiting to happen.  I believe he is extremely miserable with himself.

Last night I had a group of ladies over.  We spent the time on our patio and I told my husband he could stay if he wanted as we have plenty of space in our home. He elected to leave.  Honestly, yesterday the things he told me as to where he was did not add up.  He said he hiked in and fished all afternoon.  This is him with a very lame ankle.  Then he told me last night that again went fishing,

I am back to the should I say or should I go?  Is this all I have to look forward to the rest of my life.  The last year and a half with him has been pure hell.

Our children are perhaps backing off because they do not want to side.  I do not expect them to.  But I also see within them they are disgusted with who their father is.  Our son especially seems to have backed off from his dad.  Luckily for our son, he has a good father in law and really respects and enjoys him.

So sad the destruction that comes from one individual.  I am working hard to be healthy myself.  Am realizing how codependent I have become over the years.