Part 2: Sigh...the crazy has arrived

[formflier]

This is a continuation of:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337204.0;all

FFw is INFP...and solidly so.

Very interesting.  Much of what you said I could have said..word for word.

Especially the part about when I make a decision..I'm done.  I guess when I say that I meant that about values things...big things or things I move from tentative to "done".  

I'm not so good at explaining my learning style but essentially I'll learn by doing...so I will quickly "decide" on a course of action (because you have to pick something), fully expecting that I will make a major correct the next time around.

But...let's say I'm deciding if a person is ethical or not.  That's a big deal..lots of careful thought and deliberation.  If I slide you over into the category of unethical...it's unimaginable that I would ever change that opinion.

Really good writeup...

Best,

FF

[empath]

For many of us, it is easier to talk about the positive emotions; those are less vulnerable and tender. It's even more difficult when our vulnerabilities are rejected by those closest to us.

Grief, loss, rejection, abandonment, fear are more tender for us.

When you drill down under the "hurt" and "ouch", what's there?

[Enabler]

Cat and FF,

If my understanding is correct about the P / J elements of decision making, could this also impact the perception of what a decision equates to. I'm ESTJ, like FF, when I make a decision (because you have to choose one thing or another in my mind) I don't tend to regularly reevaluate that decision. My W however see's making a decision as a temporary state where that decision can be constantly reevaluated and changed.

I like visual / practical examples so here goes. Myself and W are at the bottom of a mountain, there's 2 paths, left or right. We don't know where either path goes but figure both go to the top. I'd probably flip a coin, make a call and start walking. W would procrastinate for a very long period of time and then start walking up one path or other. Note she hasn't actually made a decision, she's just walking down one of the paths. She's still thinking about the other path and the potential for that being a better path... I've already forgotten about the other path content that I've made a decision and I have no idea what the other path might be like so not worth thinking about. Both of us reach a dead end, the paths we have chosen were wrong! At this point I'm disappointed but see this new point as a new decision, I either make a new path off piste, or I go back down and take the other route. I will spend little or no time concerning myself with the old decision knowing full well I had no way of knowing that my choice then was going to lead to a dead end, my concern is what to do now. My W on the other hand is still mentally at the bottom of the hill, remember she herself never made a decision to take the path she was taking and will probably look to find some external influence as to why she took the route she did. She'll expend more energy being angry about the initial choice than reevaluating her current position and the outcomes of the choices she now makes.

In FF's example he see's decision making as firm and set in stone. That decision is something that's adhered to without regret until one reaches a dead end and at this point new decisions are made. FFw on the other hand see's decision making as temporary, non-committal and completely open to re-evaluation at any point. Although she might commit to leaving on such and such date, leaving on a completely different date was never off the table, and in fact it was as likely to happen as the decided date.

If you have a fear of making wrong/bad decisions because you fear being wrong/bad (holistically as a person), I think there is a tendency to disown decisions such that either you never made them or that someone else made them for you. This leads to denying conversations where decisions were made, twisting situational information such that they weren't responsible for the decision that were made, or cognitively denying any guilt or shame that might be obvious due to their backtracking on decisions.

FOMO is huge with my W. She hates missing out on things so always minimises commitment and keeps plans vague. I think she finds missing out as a painful emotion and has learnt over years to disrupt others (who have let her) with her open plans and vague commitments rather than committing herself to something and living with regret.

Enabler   

[Notwendy]

Especially the part about when I make a decision..I'm done.

Sometimes plans can change. I appreciate the rigidity, but it doesn't always work well in some situations.

For me, there's a time to be rigid about plans and a time to not be as rigid. FF- you have dealt with life and death situations- that needs logic and rigidity.

Dealing with a classroom full of pre-schoolers likely needs different skills. They need a framework of structure, but sometimes these classrooms are more fluid. Within a basic structure, plans can change with small children, and they don't have the same consequences as if it were the military. Your wife has skills that work in this setting and can change plans if needed.

What I'm getting at is that your wife changes plans without speaking to you, but does she even have a chance of doing this if she does? My H is rigid- if I say 6:00, it has to be 6. It's written in stone. Heaven help you if you want to change or something changes it because that really irks him and he tends to resist it. But sometimes there might be a better plan or way to do something or a reason.

I don't think this is a BPD thing but a difference in personalities. It takes a lot of effort to discuss changing plans with a rigid person.

Your post- your wife shared a lot of feelings and you "didn't take the bait" but what if it wasn't bait?  It's frustrating to try to communicate feelings to someone who doesn't relate as well to them- but it may have been something important to her. There may have been reasons on her family side.

I understand that it is Father's day but keep in mind the big event is a wedding, and that comes with a lot of emotions, plans, and yes, stresses for those planning it. I second Scarlett Phoenix's advice to consider this at this time.

[Harri]

Hi FF. I am going to echo what others have said here.

I think it is great that you know yourself and your personality type.

I think though, that when it coms to interacting with people, the value of this knowledge is knowing how it can affect your relationships.  You and your wife clearly have conflicting personality characteristics (not all but some).  So far, most of the time here is spent talking about how she gets triggered.  What about the times when you are triggered?  When the way she acts is in conflict with the way you think and process things? 

Being a leader in your family and your marriage requires being able to be flexible and see how ffw has needs that are different, not wrong, but different.  Rather than trying to get her to go your way, as husband, as leader, as part of your biblical marriage (headship I think is the term here?) can your role be more of a facilitator rather than director?   What can you do at your end to step back and process what is going on for you rather than trying to usually figure out what is going on for ffw.

That is the true value in knowing your personality type IMO.   

[Fian]

A couple of thoughts on this thread.

1.  I definitely err on the side of making a choice and sticking to it when I should course correct.  It drives me crazy when a sales person gets me to say yes, and then adds an additional cost to the transaction.  I should take a step back and reevaluate, but usually I keep going.  That is one drawback of making a choice and sticking to it.  On the other hand, sticking to a choice gives you the strength to push through obstacles, and can result in greater success.  Ultimately, being rigid or flexible on choice making is both a pro and a con.  If you are rigid, you need to work on being flexible.  If you are flexible, you need to work on being more rigid.  Often husband and wife are opposite in this regard, and this has nothing to do with a Personality Disorder.
2.  FF, one thing to consider.  FFw often makes decisions without consulting you.  One possible reason for this is she feels that she can never get a yes answer from you, so it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.  That doesn't justify her behavior, but it wouldn't hurt for you to do some self-examination to see if you are not being flexible enough to let her have her way on things.

[Cat Familiar]

it wouldn't hurt for you to do some self-examination to see if you are not being flexible enough to let her have her way on things.

FF, you've been a military commander, a county executive, and your wife wants you to assume a traditional Christian leadership role in your marriage, or so she says.  

Being decisive and authoritative comes naturally to those of us who are TJs. When I had my business, I had employees. Now I have a gardening crew that comes once a week and I occasionally hire a contractor for small projects. I'm very organized and I let people know exactly what I want done and have a good relationship with people who work for me.

The problem is that lots of times my decisiveness and certainty is misinterpreted by my husband as being "controlling". It's true that I'm very structured, but I doubt that anyone who works for me or who worked for me in the past would ever describe me as controlling. I'm very flexible when things don't go according to plan and I like to collaborate on solutions.

I think that my self-assurance is misinterpreted as arrogance by my husband, who second-guesses himself regularly. Your wife might also be misinterpreting your calm demeanor as being "better than". I know that my husband does. When he gets upset and I remain placid, he tends to think I'm looking down on him. Most times I'm just confused as to why he's getting so worked up about something that seems so insignificant to me.

[formflier]

There is some nuance (or worse) that is being missed her.

as a general statement..our conflict revolves around this.

FFw  get's what she wanted..usually EXACTLY what she wants, FF agrees to it and commitments are made.  We used to give each other our "word".  I would keep mine..she would abrogate.

Then claim that I never gave me word (hmmm...the contract with your signature that you drew up)...or similar. 

So...the question for a long time became why make commitments with someone who doesn't keep them?  So I stopped and did as I pleased.

She does keep it better now but it's still unsurprising  when she "goes the other way".

There are many things I'm flexible on, in fact I would say most things.  The things I've picked to stay rigid on, I rarely bend on.

Hope that makes sense.

FF

[formflier]

  when a sales person gets me to say yes, and then adds an additional cost to the transaction. 

This is a rigid area for me.  I use the phrase "out the door cost" before the agreement is made and then when they say there is an extra line item I heartily agree. 

Then say .."of course you can add whatever you want as long as the out the door is the same".  Then...watch the squirming begin.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

This is a rigid area for me.  I use the phrase "out the door cost" before the agreement is made and then when they say there is an extra line item I heartily agree. 

Then say .."of course you can add whatever you want as long as the out the door is the same".  Then...watch the squirming begin.

Best,

FF

Love it. I'm the hard-nosed negotiator. My husband wants salespeople to be his "friend".   Instead they see him as a mark.

[formflier]

Love it. I'm the hard-nosed negotiator. My husband wants salespeople to be his "friend".   Instead they see him as a mark.

My Grandfather (Dad's side...was a farmer and banker) would never...NEVER negotiate.

He would walk in, look around and would ask how much for the tractor.  They would name a price.  If acceptable...it would be bought.  If not...small talk and he would leave.

Now...he would be back next week and they would remember and price would go down.  Eventually he would buy.  Everyone "knew" about his quirk.

I love haggling.  Port visits in the middle east are the best.  You can haggle about EVERYTHING.  Many places are offended if you don't.

[Red5]

love haggling.  Port visits in the middle east are the best.  You can haggle about EVERYTHING.  Many places are offended if you don't.

One place... don’t “haggle” there, Osan South Korea,

Mamasan will crack you over your grape... yes, we tried to haggle for a couple of leather jackets while there on WESTPAC... didn’t go over very well, same in Iwakuni... but back in the day, in Subic Bay, same as the “gold souk” in Bahrain, if you didn’t haggle... they were offended.

I still have several very nice tailor made leather jackets from the market in Osan ROK’ ... but I paid egg-zack-lee what Mamasan wanted for them...

Red5

[GaGrl]

I am MBTI Qualified ( for some reason, they don't call it a certification). I assessed my dad as ISTJ. He was a contract negotiator for Dept of Defense (DOD). The difference between E and I is that an E will put themselves "out there" in social interactions, while an I will not. An E also assesses himself/herself based on the filter of other's perceptions, while an I assesses based on an internal/self filter (in other words, really doesn't care what others think).

So as an ISTJ, my dad (with only a high school education due to WWII) ended up as what is called a Super-Grade, negotiating space program contracts worth ten and hundred millions of $$$.  It worked for contract negotiation. He really didn't give a s**t about what anyone thought of him personally -- it was the deal. His real and emotional life was his family and church (Southern Baptist deacon).

So his hobby was cars...buying and selling. My sister and I were humiliated to car-shop with him -- I remember once he had two salesmen running back and forth with the sales manager. I was furious when he traded a 68 Impala 4-Dr sedan for a 69 Dodge Charger -- one week before my driving test; I had a whole new perspective on parallel parking, thanks to that weird front end. Mom made a list at about 37 years into their marriage, and there were 63 cars on the list that had come and gone!

You know, somehow my parents figured it out. Dad was ISTJ, mom is ENFJ. The only tendency they shared was a sense of order and organization. Dad was, without a doubt, the leader.

There is a natural pull, I believe, to seek in a partner those characteristics that balance our own tendencies and behaviors. I am consistently an ENFP ( not as exaggerated as 35-40 years ago). My DH is INTJ. We are really good together -- the shared intuitive factor keeps us aligned. We read each other very well -- it is the source of our intimacy -- we can get there quickly. On the other hand, when we are packing to leave on a trip, I have accused him (former Army Infantry officer) of force-marching me.

I firmly believe that a personality disorder exaggerates the natural behavior tendencies -- takes them to the nth of the scale. In other words -- no emotional or behavior regulation. So if Person A is an ESTJ and Person B is an INFP...wow, how do you connect from those extremes?

But (reasonably) healthy couples do. So... Thoughts?

[empath]

I am also a "j", but I have a good amount of flexibility to change if it is needed given the situation and people involved. I was recently in a negotiation where I personally would have been a bit more rigid and hard nosed about getting the best deal. The other people on my team had other perspectives and emotional aspects going on. For the good of the relationships, I chose to be more flexible (the $ loss wasn't that much in the end).

I think this is deeper than just a decision making difference, though.

We used to give each other our "word".  I would keep mine..she would abrogate.

Then claim that I never gave me word (hmmm...the contract with your signature that you drew up)...or similar. 

So...the question for a long time became why make commitments with someone who doesn't keep them?  So I stopped and did as I pleased.

The word "trust" comes to mind here...  It sounds like you trusted FFw to be available for you.

[formflier]

It sounds like you trusted FFw to be available for you.

Yes...and during our talk we agreed that she had planned to be here and that we had specifically ruled out leaving early because we wanted to make sure our daughter (the one getting married) was the first one on the road.

The only thing that changed was a phone call from her sister.

Anyway...big update.  Guess who is still here?

Sigh.

FF

[Enabler]

Ha ha ha ha... do you think it has anything at all to do with any conversations you have had? Or just a poof moment?

Enabler

[formflier]

Ha ha ha ha... do you think it has anything at all to do with any conversations you have had? Or just a poof moment?

Enabler

My gut is about 30 % conversation and 70% crazy wedding logistics

I think her decision to stay the first day was almost 100% emotional/conversation...or perhaps even "oppositional".

Perhaps FF is ok with this now..so what is the point.

I didn't ask..just had a good time and rolled with it.

The planned ride my daughter has on Saturday was delayed...then she needed more time to pack, then somehow "poof" my wife and everyone is still here on Father's day.
 
They are all safely at destination now.  Doing last week of wedding planning/confirmations.

Note:  I'm really glad to be a guy.

My wife has a dress that looks fabulous, she was after me for a while to "get packed and pick out my outfit for wedding and one for after"

So...while she was in bedroom we laid her dress out on the bed and I spent 10 minutes pulling out suits, shirts and ties.  Found a combination she is really happy with.  Outfit for after wedding took 2 or 3 minutes (there will be barn dancing involved).

Compare that to the crazy of "getting ready" for a wedding for the girls.

Best,

FF