Husbands and Wives

[Wicker Man]

I am in the New York area working... So re-watching Woody Allen movies seems like the right thing to do...  I was rewatching Husbands and Wives and Allen's character

Gabe says the following:


             ... I was fascinated. I was absolutely nuts about her.

              And ultimately she wound up in an institution.

              I mean, it's not funny, it was a very sad thing.

              She was great, but nuts.

              See, I've always had this penchant...

              ...for what I call " kamikaze women."

              I call them kamikazes because they crash their plane.

              They crash it into you, and you die with them.

              As soon as there's little chance of it working out...

              ...something clicks in my mind. Maybe because I'm a writer.

              A dramatic or aesthetic component becomes right...

              ...and I go after that person.

              There's a certain dramatic ambience that's almost...

              ...as if I fall in love with the situation.

              Of course, it has not worked out well for me.

              It has not been great…

It is amazing how the meaning of art changes as we grow as human beings.  I never was able to relate so closely with his movies as I am now.  I guess I am blooming as a neurotic...

[Cromwell]

Poignant stuff Wicker Man

just at a time where I felt I was numbed out and had adopted some form of dispassionate personality trait.

did they kamikaze and crash into us though - or did we find them already tip toeing through wreckage that happened primordially?

what plane did she use to crash into me if she had already crashed her own?

Your posts, true to form, always get me into deep train of thoughts WM. Thanks from a fellow blooming neurotic...  

[Wicker Man]

also from Husbands and Wives:

One of Gabe's students talking about his autobiographical manuscript:

Isn't it beneath you as a thinker...

                ...to allow your lead character to waste so much energy...

                ...obsessing over a psychotic woman...

                ...that you fantasize as powerfully sexual and inspired...

                ...when she was pitifully sick.

[Cromwell]

What is pitiful is that this knowledge of how such a public health hazard these individuals are, on the one hand label as "seriously ill" - yet the contradiction of allowing them to run amok and create wanton destruction in their wake. Excuse me if there is something i am not getting here, or does not seem to add up?

But good observation WM, a waste of energy is a waste of energy, be it for whatever reason. I'll shrug off the outrage lest it trojan horse Sun Tzu style cripple from within. It is not my ex I obsess over, this whole BPD experience program is so multi faceted. It has been can of worms opening life event.

As an interrupt, my mother last week just randomly blurted out that she had a dream of the Wicker Man film, , I had to stop her from elaborating further after I recovered from being dumbstruck by it. Very surreal this whole thing has been WM, but continue being a legend here. At least, you manage to give something I can relate to - films from prior to my era, something infinitely better to think about. Mel Brooks fan? I had only seen High Anxiety before. Ive avoided films for much the same reason I suspect is happening to you - seeing my ex in them - a form of defilement, so I just have not bothered to. So thanks for the motivation. - Regards

[Wicker Man]

I read one study and in defining the participants half of the diagnosed sufferers of BPD BPD had had ≥30 sexual partners.  Tragedy, suffering and pain all around. 

I am steadfast in my concern, compassion and pity for those suffering from BPD -it is a truly horrible disorder.

I know I did the right thing in leaving -but all the contradictions certainly left me 'confused' for a good while.

I think everyone should watch Blazing Saddles once a year -the movie could not be made now.  We have lost the ability to laugh at ourselves. Mel makes fun of every race, a few countries and most religions -no one gets away unscathed.  I do not think he has a racist bone in his body -just a wicked sense of the absurd.  Funny man.

Young Frankenstein is wonderful -they actually found the props from the original 1931 production and used them.   I am a big fan.

Dream Come True did not take away my love of cinema. I have watched maybe 10 movies since being out of town working. 

There were 2 Wicker Man movies one in the 70's and one with Nick Cage in the 2000s.  I have seen the old one.  I think I read the book years ago too. 

I certainly feel less brittle and combustible these days --I am glad I gave up my role as a sacrificial offering to a cruel god.

[Cromwell]

It will be the Nick Cage one she would be referring to.

Wicker Man as for films like blazing saddles could not be made now, the way things are going there will be a time where (it probably already exists) that we wont even be allowed to discuss a disorder like this without commiting some sort of "disability crime". Even the name BPD there is a whole group of people forcing an argument that they take specific offence to it and it should be in (typical BPD fashion) restyled to something more palatable and less i dont know shameful, 'accurate' or up to date with the times?

I read some interesting journal articles from the 70s, 80s, they seemed to not hold any punches when it came to evaluating BPD. One of the lines that stood out was in relation to Object Relations Theory. It described the non in the relationship not seen as a person but as a prostetic pacifier.

I had to admit laughing at the mental image of this, but it clicked in terms of making sense. Yet is just one example of what could probably not be written today lest it be construed as insulting, demeaning or "infantilising".

I think it was actually cited from one of Mahler's books but these same books go through so many yearly revisions and updates, I wonder how much has to get sanitised out with the red pen.

It truly is a horrible disorder.

So is diabetes, cancer, malnutrition, depression, fungal nail infections...be careful not to generalise the disorder due to one experience with DTC as much as it can be open to do so, as I have to ward off the same with my ex. Not all of them are deserving of concern, compassion or pity or suffer to the same extent or scale. Many make up the prison population and have left victims behind. I cant broadbrush in dispensing pity from afar in such cases or be an apologist. What about the ones who drink drive and wipe a family off the road, did "BPD impulsive and reckless behaviour" get used as a trump card here?

If you were in a jury trial and the defendant had BPD and I knew about posts like this, I think it is likely an attempt would be made to have you removed as not objective. Is there any substance to this thought WM?

Not criticising, just trying to help maintain balanced perspective. I do feel compassion for her condition, I have witnessed the agony and the impulsivity. At times it was heartbreaking because there was an apparent "2 in 1" persons coexisting, one I fell in love with the other made me want to vomit. But I cant castigate all those with BPDs with being the same neither apply the same pity or compassion broad stroke of the brush manner.

I certainly feel less brittle and combustible these days --I am glad I gave up my role as a sacrificial offering to a cruel god.

LOL . You have a way with words WM, Scarred, immolated thou are not. Barely a singe from what comes across. At least, you never cease to make me see the brighter side during this plunge into the insanity pool.

[Wicker Man]

Even the name BPD there is a whole group of people forcing an argument...

I am familiar with the term EUPD (Emotionally Unstable PD -for those keeping score at home...)  BPD was coined a long time ago and it was meant to imply on the boarder between psychosis and neurosis -as you well know.  

I can see the argument and concern -borderline sounds pretty damning and I am guessing it is unsuitable in some cases.  Some professionals, Lacan as an example, felt it was a junk diagnosis because 'BPD' can have so many manifestations and comorbidities .  

Further BPD has been demonized by the media and some of the hate groups on the internet.  Sadly it has become a catch all for failed relationships and junk psychology.  If you will note I always speak in the subjunctive -unless it is a direct experience.  May, could, sometimes.  I am not being mealy mouthed -I am trying to be careful and compassionate as a lay person with a single anecdotal experience.  It is not mine to make sweeping and damning statements about something of which I have no professional knowledge.

In Dream Come True's case -who, I believe (implied subjunctive case...), suffers deeply from BPD^*  I saw enough psychotic breaks I felt 'borderline' fits her.  When I described the 'trees and rocks mission' to my therapist he said technically speaking that is psychosis ergo...  The cause is different, but when under extreme stress she could present schizophrenic like delusion.  Poor kid.

 ^*CCMD does not include BPD -so I guess as a Chinese woman it is impossible for her to have BPD right?

It described the non in the relationship not seen as a person but as a prostetic pacifier.

As long as you include this is subconscious and there is no intent I would be more inclined to agree.  They do love very deeply... but then... they can stop on a dime.

It truly is a horrible disorder... ...So is diabetes, cancer, malnutrition, depression, fungal nail infections...be careful not to generalize

Cancer, diabetes, malnutrition, nail infections can be, in some cases, self inflicted.  

People with BPD were not given a choice and the damage is so severe and painful they frequently do not possess the insight or strength to 'opt out' through talk therapy (DBT or otherwise) later in life.  It is a horrible disorder and via the inverse square law the closer you are the more their pain bell curves off and devastates us.

...What about the ones who drink drive and wipe a family off the road, did "BPD impulsive and reckless behaviour" get used as a trump card here [argument against compassion and understanding?]?

Here is the issue with analogy... it serves my point just as well. Again... I am left with the argument of intent.  That is why we have 1st and 2nd degree murder and manslaughter in our law systems.  Dream Come True falls into the latter two -I don't think she could premeditate something to save her life.

If you were in a jury trial and the defendant had BPD and I knew about posts like this, I think it is likely an attempt would be made to have you removed as not objective.

If a capital crime was committed, and BPD or other mental impairment could be proven without a shadow of a doubt I would cast my vote for institutionalization rather than prison.  We have this in our criminal justice systems for a reason.  Some people are legitimately not Compos Mentis... Just try not to date these people...

...Scarred, immolated thou are not...

I will fall back upon one of my first posts.  When my therapist told me I likely dodged a bullet in ending my relationship... (paraphrase, but close without looking up my thread from a year ago):

'I did not dodge the bullet -I was hit and hit hard... But...  I turned away and was not struck lethally in center core mass.'

You are correct I did not sacrifice myself to immolation -which was the impetus of the name I chose...  But I was scarred.  Those scars have faded with time -but I felt 'high center' (no wheels touching the ground) for quite a while.  

To do it over again... I wouldn't...  I stand by my 'signature' the only winning move is not to play.

[Cromwell]

I stand by it too Wicker Man, a long with the wisdom you have shared from experience and learning here.

I should have put some distance between us though, these summer holidays in 20minutes close proximity, small town. I could have (in hindsight I laugh) have been in Hong Kong of all places working.

I keep meaning to pack up as the answer, yet this time here has been that testing ground. It helped when you said to me that it is not actually that difficult for you to be on a plane back to her. It made sense to me that this is not the option of curbing what really is an inner problem, perhaps it is a form of addiction. Otherwise I have mastered the rest, why does it linger-on? Im not sure but I feel some form of epiphany, having got to a state of accepting but a lack of drive for it, a sense of control. To see it as a form of game is a way I have not thought of relationships before, they had been incredibly opaque, real, non psychotic, void of mental illness, in comparison. I had went through infidelity before, heartbreak too. This has been something radical, but in doing so, an opportunity perhaps which did not present itself before.

Keeping or trying to keep in line with your original post (and I dont mean to detract from it, apologise, my thoughts have been oscillating these past couple of days), perhaps there is a falling in love for the situation, or her, or both simultaneously or it happened in sequentially. All I can take away from it regardless, here and now, I stick to your signature ardently, I see it as a game or battle not to play, yet have been prompted by you to ask myself, who exactly am I or was I, really playing against?

As an aside, intent is not required for most road traffic offences, but hey, Im done with using these sorts of arguments as a way of trying to blot out other thoughts, or proclivities as Skip calls them. Another game variant detected. No more games plus heal thyself. Will stick to some therapy via signatures for awhile it seems to be yielding something.

I missed her today, it passed, it was horrible. I try to tell myself it proved something to myself, so ambivalent though.

Thanks WM