This stuff never fails to amaze (venting)

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi everyone. S4 was fairly recently diagnosed with astigmatisms which obviously require glasses. He has broken 3 pairs already. Quick side note, his mom (BPD/NPD traits) has complete control over every aspect of his healthcare and blocks me from all of it. I’m lucky to receive an update. Back on point. He’s currently without glasses so I sent her a brief message that said “Will you please let me know how I can help to get S4 new glasses?”. Well, she went off. I remained calm and responded instead of reacting. She started to make the whole situation about her, which was to be expected, so I did my best to redirect the convo back to S4 and his glasses. She was cussing me, so I explained to her that I didn’t appreciate her behavior and that in the future if she feels like she can’t have a civil conversation with me about our Son to please delay any response until she feels like she can have a civil discussion about his needs or any concerns. That was a mistake. She escalated. We’re on a coparenting app which notifies me when she sends a message. I fortified the boundary by letting her know that I was disabling the notifications and that I would be checking it once per week. If there was an emergency, schedule change or something pressing to email me. She shot back one last message before I could do so stating that  my irresponsibility was the reason why S4 doesn’t have glasses right now. This is the part that just blows my mind. I have all but begged her to involve me in all of his healthcare. I’ve asked multiple times to be able to take him to his appointments. Nope. But now I’m irresponsible and don’t care about his well being?

On the way home from work I get an email asking me if I can take S4 this weekend (her weekend). She says she has to work all weekend. Not my problem. One of her adult male cousins is staying with her for some reason, and she basically said that she’s not comfortable leaving S4 with him. Then why is he staying there? I can’t take him and said “No, I’m not able to do that.”. Exact words, and I’m not able to. She replied with “Ok”. A minute later another email asking me for my address, which I’ve already provided. She said that I’ll be getting paperwork soon and that she’d rather I receive it at home instead of at my place of work. I don’t quite understand where that came from, but whatever. My anxiety started to escalate so I cut the conversation by saying “I’m finished communicating with you today. Take care.”. Nothing since.

I’ve recently totally changed how I communicate with her. I had a really bad habit of reacting to her. It’s hard to keep in check, but I’ve basically stopped. Am I likely experiencing an escalating extinction burst now that she isn’t baiting reactions out of me? Thanks for reading.

[JNChell]

Hi everyone. S4 was fairly recently diagnosed with astigmatisms which obviously require glasses. He has broken 3 pairs already. Quick side note, his mom (BPD/NPD traits) has complete control over every aspect of his healthcare and blocks me from all of it. I’m lucky to receive an update. Back on point. He’s currently without glasses so I sent her a brief message that said “Will you please let me know how I can help to get S4 new glasses?”. Well, she went off. I remained calm and responded instead of reacting. She started to make the whole situation about her, which was to be expected, so I did my best to redirect the convo back to S4 and his glasses. She was cussing me, so I explained to her that I didn’t appreciate her behavior and that in the future if she feels like she can’t have a civil conversation with me about our Son to please delay any response until she feels like she can have a civil discussion about his needs or any concerns. That was a mistake. She escalated. We’re on a coparenting app which notifies me when she sends a message. I fortified the boundary by letting her know that I was disabling the notifications and that I would be checking it once per week. If there was an emergency, schedule change or something pressing to email me. She shot back one last message before I could do so stating that  my irresponsibility was the reason why S4 doesn’t have glasses right now. This is the part that just blows my mind. I have all but begged her to involve me in all of his healthcare. I’ve asked multiple times to be able to take him to his appointments. Nope. But now I’m irresponsible and don’t care about his well being?

On the way home from work I get an email asking me if I can take S4 this weekend (her weekend). She says she has to work all weekend. Not my problem. One of her adult male cousins is staying with her for some reason, and she basically said that she’s not comfortable leaving S4 with him. Then why is he staying there? I can’t take him and said “No, I’m not able to do that.”. Exact words, and I’m not able to. She replied with “Ok”. A minute later another email asking me for my address, which I’ve already provided. She said that I’ll be getting paperwork soon and that she’d rather I receive it at home instead of at my place of work. I don’t quite understand where that came from, but whatever. My anxiety started to escalate so I cut the conversation by saying “I’m finished communicating with you today. Take care.”. Nothing since.

I’ve recently totally changed how I communicate with her. I had a really bad habit of reacting to her. It’s hard to keep in check, but I’ve basically stopped. Am I likely experiencing an escalating extinction burst now that she isn’t baiting reactions out of me? Thanks for reading.

[I Am Redeemed]

She might be having extinction bursts because of the change in how you are responding, and also maybe because you aren't doing whatever she wants whenever she wants.

What paperwork is she talking about? Do you think she is planning to take you to court?

If you think that might be a possibility, start documenting (if you haven't already), especially things like her saying that the male cousin shouldn't be trusted with S4 (yet is still welcome to visit for some reason).

[JNChell]

Hi Redeemed. Thanks for responding. I’m assuming that she was talking about court, but I didn’t dig for answers on that. My gut tells me that she was seeking a reaction. I may be wrong, but it’s a little too obvious to me that I asked her to email me if there was a need to, then not long after that exchange I get an email. Like you said, I didn’t do what she wanted so she upped the ante to try and upset me. I will be keeping track of any correspondence. Thanks for pointing out the fact that she isn’t comfortable with the cousin. Should I bring this to light with her, or just keep quiet about it?

[GaGrl]

No, don't bring it to her attention. She has gotten herself into a classic double-bind. Either her cousin IS okay to be with your son, or he is NOT okay, in which case she wants you to take your son, meaning YOU are okay to have your son, which cuts off her complaining g later that you are not okay. Hmmmm, maybe that is a triple bind.

[JNChell]

Thanks, Georgia. As I’m laying here trying to catch some Z’s I can’t help but fester on the fact that this woman will quite likely pick at my scabs for the rest of my/her days and it pisses me off. I find myself wishing that she will eventually find a reason to devalue her current boyfriend so that every communication with her isn’t this stressful. Maybe then she could take her crap out on someone else. I feel bad about thinking that way. I don’t wish this crap on anyone, but I’m tired of fielding it. My only concern is our boy. I also struggle with being able to recognize when I’m talking to the borderline or narcissist. The narcissist is the most prevalent since being split. At least it looks like that. Down right mean and condescending all the time while maintaining a victim status. I’m wondering if she’s borderline at all and simply a covert narcissist.

Honestly, today felt like a scare tactic. A power grab. I’m just over it. I can’t stand this woman that I loved and had a child with. She has no desire to change.

[I Am Redeemed]

She can pick, but you can keep doing work on yourself so that maybe eventually it won't affect you as much. One day your son will be an adult and then you may not have to see or hear from her at all.

As far as the current bf, she probably will continue her pattern with him. She hasn't changed, so there's no reason to believe that her current r/s will fare any better. However, that doesn't mean she will stop trying to get under your skin.

It might be better in the long run if you do get a court order. Then you would at least have that to protect your rights and to hold up as a boundary when she tries to get you to do things that rescue her: "I'm sorry, we are sticking to the court order which states xyz". You also might get access to medical appointments/decisions that she is currently not allowing. She has power over you right now in the form of your son. It's sad, but many people use children as dysfunctional tools to satisfy some internal need they have.

It sounds like she got herself into a situation where her job expected her to work on her scheduled time with your son, and she doesn't know how to set a boundary with that in a healthy way: "I'm sorry, I can't, this is my weekend to have my son." It's likely that produced some anxiety which she tried to fix by asking you to take your son. You were not able to do that, which means she has to figure out a solution by herself, and that sparked a dysregulation. I found that lots of my ex's dysregulations were rooted in anxiety over something that he wanted me to fix for him so he didn't have to handle it, and if I couldn't or wouldn't, the dam would break and the unbridled rage would come pouring forth.

[once removed]

i dont know that this is about extinction bursts. it seems like this is just the way the two of you talk to each other/deal with conflict. theres a whole lot of tension, the two of you are on a hair trigger, get under each others skin, and fight hard.

it seems like youre trying some new approaches and making some improvements. good. keep honing those skills. it may not improve the relationship at all, but over time, that tension may lessen...things can get easier to deal with, when you have to.

back and forth (he said/she said) is really important if you want to look at where things can be improved on. for example, how did she go off? how did she make the situation about her? it sounds like there is some backstory, like healthcare is a touchy subject. why?

I explained to her that I didn’t appreciate her behavior and that in the future if she feels like she can’t have a civil conversation with me about our Son to please delay any response until she feels like she can have a civil discussion about his needs or any concerns.

heres the thing...if theres a lot of tension, this is guaranteed to set it off. remember, you contacted her. you didnt like her answer, fair enough. telling her how to go about responding or not responding is asking for it. not knowing what she said, its difficult to recommend something for in the future.

She escalated. We’re on a coparenting app which notifies me when she sends a message. I fortified the boundary by letting her know that I was disabling the notifications and that I would be checking it once per week.

this is escalating too, JNChell, especially in the moment. its saying to her "fine then, im taking my ball and going home and im going to be harder to reach". and then she fought to get the last word in 

it wasnt necessarily the wrong thing to do, or to let her know, but in the middle of a fight, it just looks like a power move.

“No, I’m not able to do that.”.

fair enough, and no JADE 

i think that generally, delaying responses and not reacting is a good strategy. maybe even bring some of it here as its happening, and we can walk you through it.

lots of improvement. keep at it.

[Notwendy]

I don't know what your custody arrangement is, or if you are allowed to take him to the eye doctor, but I'd consider taking him and having a spare set of glasses at your home.

In the US there are several "walk in" glasses stores with optometrists on site that will do a vision check. They often have "2 for 1" specials.

Some if these types of conflicts are easier to solve by having duplicates than by trying to work out in a high conflict situation.

I agree with Once Removed that reacting is adding to the drama.

[ForeverDad]

Using the coparenting app ought to make it easier for you to 'document' her unreasonable communications when you do return to family court.  Sure, now it's a royal pain but that system is probably designed for the lawyers, court or evaluators to monitor the communications.  Over time her continuing poor behaviors will build a foundation for you to seek - and get - more parenting authority.  Even if court continues to view her as the 'primary' parent, wouldn't it be nice to have a greater voice in the major things, perhaps even "Decision Making" or "Tie Breaker" status?

(By the way, don't tell her your long term strategy if you decide to build documentation for seeking DM or TB status, let her sink herself over time.)

When my son was young I took him to a vision specialist (beyond eye care) and got him glasses.  He was tickled with them.  On his first return to her home, she reported he got upset and smashed them under his chair.  Obviously she maneuvered something.  She never returned them so I could never get them replaced.  Over the years I got more and more time and authority from the court based on her obstructions and conflict.  The initial temp orders set her at temp custody and me at alternate weekends.  A few trips back to family court, not fun, not cheap, but I've had full custody and majority time since before he was a teenager.  He will age out of the system next year.  He does have glasses now.

[livednlearned]

I’ve recently totally changed how I communicate with her. I had a really bad habit of reacting to her. It’s hard to keep in check, but I’ve basically stopped. Am I likely experiencing an escalating extinction burst now that she isn’t baiting reactions out of me?

It seems like she did get a reaction out of you. No?

[JNChell]

If me putting an abrupt stop to my anxiety being escalated is me escalating the situation, ok. I won’t argue with wisdom. I’m tired of the intense anxiety that comes with trying to communicate with S4’s mom. The threats and the put downs. I have no room for that anymore. All of our situations are different. Our exes are different. It’s difficult to read and absorb that I was escalating the situation. I was trying to communicate and, for once, refused to be spoken to in the way that she was speaking to me when I only reached out about glasses for our boy. I’m done with all of that. I hate the way that she talks to me so I’m taking measures. Self care, right?

No, it’s not about trying to get under the other’s skin. Not from my side. It’s about not being pushed around anymore by proxy of my son.

We talk a lot about not being caretakers for disordered individuals. Then why do we have to validate them and constantly adjust how we communicate with them etc. to try and keep the peace? This sounds like care taking. Constantly having to readjust for another person.

[once removed]

JNChell,

caretakers for disordered individuals. Then why do we have to validate them

no one is suggesting this.

if youre okay with the tension, and feeling frustrated every time you speak with her, theres no need to change a thing.

the point, i think, is that if you are going to be forced to communicate with her, you want it to go as smoothly as possible for you, right? if so, its going to involve some reflection, and an openness to where there is room for improvement (improvement is not about being nice to her or making her feel good).

refused to be spoken to in the way that she was speaking to me
...
It’s about not being pushed around anymore

the best way to not be pushed around anymore isnt to declare you wont be pushed around anymore. thats reacting, it telegraphs shes getting under your skin, its relitigating old battles, and it isnt effective when it comes to difficult people. in other words, if she is pushing you around, it just tells her that its working.

your own advice (delay response) is good advice, if youre feeling anxious. but again, without a sense of what she said, or what this is about, its difficult to offer more specific advice on what you might try.

[Notwendy]

I did a lot of work on this kind of thing with a co-dependency 12 step sponsor and an MC. It isn't about validating or soothing the other person at all. It's about recognizing our feelings and doing what we need to do do calm ourselves before responding.

One exercise she gave me was to not use the word "you" in a reply and speak from my perspective. This can get a little awkward but it helps to not fuel drama.

When you are feeling anxiety when speaking to your ex, it's a sign that you are not at your best and need some self care- time to disengage from the conversation.

She may not be able to emotionally regulate when speaking to you, but you can.

I explained to her that I didn’t appreciate her behavior and that in the future if she feels like she can’t have a civil conversation with me about our Son to please delay any response until she feels like she can have a civil discussion about his needs or any concerns.

Could also be said as " I need to think about this and I will get back to you in 30 minutes" Then don't respond for 30 minutes unless there is some emergency. Sometimes disengaging takes the drama down.

The goal was not to put out the storm in the other person but to be able to stay calm in the storm. By stopping the discussion to gain some calm time, it will help you navigate this. It's about caretaking ourselves and when we gain this skill- we keep it. It's not about tolerating abuse- for that you disengage, but about not reacting to other people's emotional unrest as much. Takes practice but is worth it.

[livednlearned]

" I need to think about this and I will get back to you in 30 minutes"

This is excellent advice.

The goal was not to put out the storm in the other person but to be able to stay calm in the storm.

So is this.

Your ex knows you really, really well. She's expert at reading emotions, most likely.

People here are pointing out places where your reactions are probably poking through, giving her some velcro to stick things to.

If you have to dial all the way back to having a third party handle communications so that your anxieties can dial down, that's ok. I did that with my ex and it allowed my nervous system to calm down enough so that eventually I could handle direct communication. It took time.

I also ended up adopting a somewhat extreme parallel parenting routine as I learned to take better care of myself. You do have to live with inconveniences and some heartbreak, unfortunately. Inconveniences because you may have to find out information other ways, not to mention it does seem to be more expensive to parallel parent. And heart breaking because in the short term, my son had to go without at times.

[Panda39]

Hi JNChell  

Quick side note, his mom (BPD/NPD traits) has complete control over every aspect of his healthcare and blocks me from all of it. I’m lucky to receive an update]

One thing my partner learned was to go straight to the source.  If you know who your son is seeing contact them directly, whether it's the eye doctor, pediatrician, daycare/school teacher, a friends parents etc.  Don't rely on your ex for information if you go straight to the source not only do you get accurate information but you do not have to interact with your ex.

I like Notwendy's suggestion (a parallel parenting move) to take your son and get him glasses so he has them at your house.  Your ex can do what she needs to do at her house. (Again another way to assist your son without interacting with your ex) And if she never gets them and you do what does that say about who has the best interest of your son in mind.

My Partner went through something similar.  Early on he was an EOW dad with Wednesday night dinners.  His younger daughter had a toothache, mom scheduled an appointment then cancelled it, rescheduled it, cancelled it, decided to go to another dentist, scheduled it, cancelled it...  She did this over and over again for 3 months (while her daughter was in pain), my partner offered to take her over and over again finally finding a dentist who would see her on the weekend he just took her.  His documentation of this incident showed the court that she was neglectful and he was awarded Dental Decision-Making. D18 never had to wait for dental care again.

I also think you should consider getting a custody order.  It creates a framework and boundaries from which you can better support your son and protect your rights (like sharing basic information).

Panda39

[JNChell]

or, I know that no one has suggested that. I was trying to describe a feeling.

“your own advice (delay response) is good advice, if youre feeling anxious. but again, without a sense of what she said, or what this is about, its difficult to offer more specific advice on what you might try.”

I didn’t respond well to her responses. I shut her down at every corner. I’m not sorry for that, but I understand what you’re getting at.

It’s hard not to tell her to not put our boy in between us, but she simply can’t see the possible outcome of that. She wasn’t taught that and has no reason to consider it.

She has told me that I’m a good parent just to eventually tell me that I’m a bad parent. It’s goes on like this. I’m finally at a point where her words don’t mean much to me.

[JNChell]

Notwendy, thank you for putting it in that perspective. That makes sense to me. As you know, it’s exhausting dealing with this. At times I break down and cry. It’s weird. I know where everything fits. I’ve done a lot of work, but sometimes the feelings take precedence.

I can see what you all are saying. I was trying to give S4’s mom a time out when I was the one that really needed it. That would’ve been more beneficial.

The ground is still shakey. His mom looks amazing. She’s taken on a whole new look. She looks.

[JNChell]

la& last. I never thought about it like this.

Your ex knows you really, really well. She's expert at reading emotions, most likely

She knows everything about me. She knew quickly, then she was pregnant. After our baby, all hell broke loose. It should’ve gotten better after that. But that’s where she started using him. She would run off with the kids after not being able to have a conversation. I wouldn’t hear from her. I’d blow up her phone. My anxiety was through the roof and she knew it. She did this so much. I understand my responsibilities. She extorted a vehicle from me. You has a lot of my possessions. I refuse to go back to her house. If I ever did, something bad would happen between us. Our boy doesn’t need to see that.

[ForeverDad]

If things end up in a legal struggle in court, you need to already have good control of your emotions and reactions.  Yes, she'll still try to push your buttons but you need to be the better person and refuse to fall for her manipulations.  Learn from our examples.  We too had to educate ourselves on how not to have predictable knee-jerk reactions.

Having a counselor tasked with helping you to becomes better in interactions with your spouse would be invaluable.  Do you have a counselor?  Rather than it making you look bad, courts like to see parents taking advantage of the aid and insight counselors can provide.

You need to present yourself to the court as the more mature and stable person.  You have to stop giving your spouse opportunities to potentially document you behaving poorly.  If your spouse is able to goad you into poor reactions and overreactions, then your judge may just see two bickering spouses or, worse, see you as the problem.  You need to behave as the problem solver.