Finding a backbone

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

His, not mine.  I already found mine years ago.

uBPD H has three children from his uNPD XW.  She found a lover when he was over seas in the military and divorced H to marry him.  She took all of the children and had full custody.  In time, the children grew up and knew how overvalued they were in their father's eyes, and by the time they were in their teens routinely emotionally blackmailed him to get anything from money, cars and vacations to luxury items. Their favourite threat was not to come over for visitation.

It was horrible to watch a grown man turn into a groveling coward in front of his teen and adult children.  They used the same insults as their mother did.  I wished H would have grown a backbone.  He never stood up to his children.  When one of the children made a threat to me (implying she could beat me up), my H refused to defend me, saying she didn't mean it, that she is only a teen, etc.  I played her at her own game with a well chosen verbal comment about her weight problem (she was twice my size and less than half my age.)  I did not like to do it, but since she implied she could/would physically harm me, I made a verbal response that made her think twice.  She never sassed me again or made any threats to me from that time on.

I really with my H would have stood up for me and protected me, and I lost a lot of respect for him after that.

Now all of the children are near 30, and they still abuse their F emotionally.  H had a birthday come and go.  His S is homeless and addicted to drugs and alcohol, so we don't see him often.  One time H had a birthday and his S showed up unannounced.  H ended up taking his son out to dinner on his own birthday.  S, of course, helped himself to a nice meal plus several shots of whiskey and beer.  His two Ds, on whom he spends lavishly (bought skis for one D "just because," paid for a lavish wedding for the other, etc.) could not even be bothered to send a dollar store birthday card to their F.  When H had the guts to finally tell why he was hurt (he does not expect gifts but he did not even get a card this year for either D), both Ds got hostile and defensive with heaps of excuses as to why they could not get him a card, then went no contact and are in emotional blackmail mode. (One is not cooking a birthday meal for her F, the other is not letting him see the grandchildren.)

I see these adult spoiled brats for what they are, the product of their uNPD M.  All three are in the BPD and NPD spectrum.  My H usually splits me and them:  all-good children, all-bad wife.  He may see them for what they are, for awhile at least, but I never expected him to give them their silence.   I expected him to immediately forgive them and, instead, take them out to dinner for his own birthday.  

We will see how long this lasts, however.  

[AskingWhy]

His, not mine.  I already found mine years ago.

uBPD H has three children from his uNPD XW.  She found a lover when he was over seas in the military and divorced H to marry him.  She took all of the children and had full custody.  In time, the children grew up and knew how overvalued they were in their father's eyes, and by the time they were in their teens routinely emotionally blackmailed him to get anything from money, cars and vacations to luxury items. Their favourite threat was not to come over for visitation.

It was horrible to watch a grown man turn into a groveling coward in front of his teen and adult children.  They used the same insults as their mother did.  I wished H would have grown a backbone.  He never stood up to his children.  When one of the children made a threat to me (implying she could beat me up), my H refused to defend me, saying she didn't mean it, that she is only a teen, etc.  I played her at her own game with a well chosen verbal comment about her weight problem (she was twice my size and less than half my age.)  I did not like to do it, but since she implied she could/would physically harm me, I made a verbal response that made her think twice.  She never sassed me again or made any threats to me from that time on.

I really with my H would have stood up for me and protected me, and I lost a lot of respect for him after that.

Now all of the children are near 30, and they still abuse their F emotionally.  H had a birthday come and go.  His S is homeless and addicted to drugs and alcohol, so we don't see him often.  One time H had a birthday and his S showed up unannounced.  H ended up taking his son out to dinner on his own birthday.  S, of course, helped himself to a nice meal plus several shots of whiskey and beer.  His two Ds, on whom he spends lavishly (bought skis for one D "just because," paid for a lavish wedding for the other, etc.) could not even be bothered to send a dollar store birthday card to their F.  When H had the guts to finally tell why he was hurt (he does not expect gifts but he did not even get a card this year for either D), both Ds got hostile and defensive with heaps of excuses as to why they could not get him a card, then went no contact and are in emotional blackmail mode. (One is not cooking a birthday meal for her F, the other is not letting him see the grandchildren.)

I see these adult spoiled brats for what they are, the product of their uNPD M.  All three are in the BPD and NPD spectrum.  My H usually splits me and them:  all-good children, all-bad wife.  He may see them for what they are, for awhile at least, but I never expected him to give them their silence.   I expected him to immediately forgive them and, instead, take them out to dinner for his own birthday.  

We will see how long this lasts, however.  

[Witz_End]

Wow!  That's a good development.  I can understand why you wonder how long it will last, though.

Something I've observed with my wife is the see-saw effect of the push-pull.  When I am split black, projecting things onto me takes them off her and she essentially splits herself white in the process - in analogy, I am down on the see-saw and she is up.  It appears as a backbone.  As she realizes inside that perhaps she is doing damage or creating a division that she does not like, the see-saw swings and she takes it all back on herself, idealizing me and devaluing herself.

It sounds to me that they have been extremely skilled at keeping his end of the see-saw down, putting him in a place he idealized them and devalues himself.  Yes, the ideal is a healthy backbone and a healthy balance, but at least he has broken from the pattern of staying down.

Something my wife said a couple months ago that shed a lot of light on things for me might help shed light on BPD to BPD/NPD relationships.  In a rare mea culpa after I voiced some feelings on where I had felt hurt and let down, she apologized.

In accepting the apology, which was so heart felt, I sought to soften her guilt and show that I understood.  I said something along the lines of... "I understand.  I've made these same sort of mistakes too, and I am also very sorry for how those times I have hurt you."  This, to me, is a normal, human give and take interaction, right?

But she struggled with it and pointed out not to do "that."  I had no clue what was wrong with it, till she explained that it creates a syntax error in her, like a cognitive dissonance.  She is unable to process both giving and receiving of apology.  Unknowingly, she was describing the all-or-nothing inability to see grey and the driving force for splitting... and that see-saw effect.

I think where I was going with this (I kind of lost what I was thinking while typing) is that I would imagine that unidirectional mode would be even more predominant in relationships between two BPD's, possibly also a BPD and a NPD.  What we think of as a normal way of interacting (my give-take response to my wife's apology) does not compute to them.  Likewise, the creation of healthy consinsistent boundaries (backbone) doesn't work in a system where things shift and the see-saw goes up and down, the all-or-nothing burden of guilt and responsibility passing back and forth.

Their dynamic is more likely to be a back and forth of who can "out black" the other into submission and accepting a down position on the see-saw.  He may have the upper now, but expecting that to lead to a healthy balance or not to swing may be contrary to how they are and interact.

It's hard to watch, I'm sure.  I do think it's better for you to stay observe to it.  In a way, if you did as you were saying and became more observer, perhaps that is what helped him reverse the see-saw.  Involvement may have been putting you into that dynamic as a third leg of the see-saw, forcing him to choose between elevating them or you.  He chose them.  As you pulled yourself out of involvement, that shifted.  Do you see that as possible?

[Witz_End]

The more ai think about that last paragraph, the more it makes sense when you think about BPD programming.

When you criticize or point out what they are doing to him, he is put in a position of needing to see you as white (up see-saw) or black (down see-saw).  His instinct is to defend them, which puts you down and them up.

At the same time, the way he processes it is he can not see them as both white in relation to you and black in relation to him.  It contradicts.  And the implication is that having them up see-saw to you *means* having them up see-saw to him with the BPD programming implication that that puts *him* down see-saw.

So long as he feels compelled to justify them in response to your pointing things out, he is unable (his programming) to shift and hold them accountable for anything.

Is this what you see, though?

[Notwendy]

AW- I know this is frustrating to watch but remember it's the drama triangle. Can you stay out of it? The issue is between the kids and your H. It's his problem if he's a pushover to them.

You know that if you say something to him, it's poking the beast. He turns on you.

This is something you can't do anything about. His relationship with the kids has been going on a long time. It's not going to change unless he chooses to and it doesn't look like he is.

It only makes you frustrated.

There's a saying- why let this issue occupy your thoughts rent-free?

Watch something fun on TV and let your H deal with the kids.

[ct21218]

It's not your job to make him find a backbone.  His actions have been clear for years, he has intention of and doesn't want to change.  You are not accepting him for who he is. 

[AskingWhy]

Thank you all for your kind comments. I know it's not my place to get him a backbone, but when his children treat him so poorly he projects onto me.  This is also the case for his uNPD F and uNPD XW. 

I become the target of his rage (F abused and invalidated him; XW cheated on him and took the children to marry her lover.)  This is why I want H to increase his self esteem and grow a backbone.  Right now they are giving him the silent treatment.  No phone calls from the grand children.  H walks around the house sulking and I don't know when he will explode on me.

[Notwendy]

Here's where the only thing you can control is to not be around to take it. You may need to go to another room, make yourself busy doing something else when he's in this mood.

I think it's kind that you want him to grow better self esteem for him- and for you- but unfortunately, we can't do this for someone else.

Maybe brainstorm here what steps you can take to not be in his presence when he's in this bad mood? I know it's tough to be around a grumpy person but we can't change the grumpy.

[ct21218]

I would also make it a point to NOT talk about his kids and their behavior.  Even if he is hurt by them, he will likely turn it around on you and make it him and the kids vs. you. 

I was in a relationship with someone with rage issues and the less I said the better.  It eventually turned physical and at that point I had to get the police involved and get him out for my safety.  His rage would come out of his nowhere and the best action I could take was to get away.

[AskingWhy]

Thank you all again for the replies.

It's painful to see him go about like a whipped animal in a cage, but that's the way his children treat him.  He had absolutely no backbone when they were children and teens, and now they are all around 30 and treating him the same way.  They all emotionally blackmail him.

I agree the best I can do is not be around him.  Let him go sulk alone and lick his wounds.  The worst part of all this is when they call him and he gets this stupid, goofy, love sick face and sappy voice on the phone.  They know he's such a wimp and a push over. 

Small wonder I have no respect for the man.  He emotionally abused me for years, mostly with breaking items and punching holes in walls that gave me C-PTSD, and I grovelled and cried for him to "forgive" me for whatever I might have done to anger him.

No more.  When H so much as infers divorce in his speech, I laugh at him.  I tell him to go ahead and have me served.  I don't give in to his blackmail.  Talking to attorneys makes me feel so much better about these threats in the even he leaves, or I leave him.   For the years we were married, H stands to lose quite a bit.   In addition, I will be free to be myself, with another man or not.  And I will be on the look out for love bombing and BPD men.