Part 2: Is it doomed or do i keep trying. Does this sound like BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Mod Note:  Part one of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338953.0;all

Hi Gem, I appreciate the post more than you know. I relate to a majority of it. I certainly can relate to the co-dependency stuff. I will have a listen to Julia. I can also relate to the feeling of placating others and not really knowing how I feel about some things for sure.
I am doing this work with my T now. The stuff around being able to say I don't know what is best for someone else and it is in their best interest to be able to find a way through it for themselves but it is ok to be there as a support. Is this kind of what you are saying?
Unlike when you laid down your needs to your partner when I laid down my dealbreakers and boundaries my exbpd partner hit the roof. Tears, tantrums and punching walls followed by the obvious fear of me ending the relationship which is what happened.
I do accept what you have written in the last paragraph regarding is this an appropriate  response to asking about doing some dishes. The answer is clearly no. We had a discussion afterwards and she said it sent her into a shame spiral because she always had to do housework as a child and never got to do what she wanted. I wasn't sure how to handle that. It made sense from some perspective but it was such a gross over reaction and was always where she went back to when we would fight about anything. The dishes, chores and security of the house were/are important to me and yet she was able to convince me that it was ok when she decided she didn't want to do any of it. Am I just a sucker?

[bradio]

Mod Note:  Part one of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338953.0;all

Hi Gem, I appreciate the post more than you know. I relate to a majority of it. I certainly can relate to the co-dependency stuff. I will have a listen to Julia. I can also relate to the feeling of placating others and not really knowing how I feel about some things for sure.
I am doing this work with my T now. The stuff around being able to say I don't know what is best for someone else and it is in their best interest to be able to find a way through it for themselves but it is ok to be there as a support. Is this kind of what you are saying?
Unlike when you laid down your needs to your partner when I laid down my dealbreakers and boundaries my exbpd partner hit the roof. Tears, tantrums and punching walls followed by the obvious fear of me ending the relationship which is what happened.
I do accept what you have written in the last paragraph regarding is this an appropriate  response to asking about doing some dishes. The answer is clearly no. We had a discussion afterwards and she said it sent her into a shame spiral because she always had to do housework as a child and never got to do what she wanted. I wasn't sure how to handle that. It made sense from some perspective but it was such a gross over reaction and was always where she went back to when we would fight about anything. The dishes, chores and security of the house were/are important to me and yet she was able to convince me that it was ok when she decided she didn't want to do any of it. Am I just a sucker?

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[bradio]

Gem, can you tell me what would or could be the appropriate conversation after the suicide threat over the dishes?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi bradio-

I think I’m a lot different from others here in that I do NOT believe adult love is unconditional.  I also don’t want a parent-child relationship with my lover.  That is not to say we aren’t playful.  We are. 

I’m okay with “leading” our relationship from a communication standpoint, but I do NOT want to be his “mommy”.  And he’s still got his.  A manipulative one at that who he’s dangerously enmeshed with (ever heard the term emotional incest?).  Scary, creepy stuff.  No big mystery why my guy is struggling.

Back to point.  But no... I do NOT believe adult love is unconditional.  Because of my past, and things that happened to me, I had/have some BPD traits.  I understand that now.  I turn my punishment toward myself.  I’ve never blamed anyone else for what happened other than the people who did it.  I think that’s the key.

And perhaps that’s the conversation to have with your BPDgf.  YOU are not responsible for her past.  And she is not responsible for the painful things in your past.  Acknowledge what took place, how painful it was, and that to be healthy together it must be laid to rest.

Here’s my thing.  I KNOW full well that my uBPDbf did NOT repeatedly molest me when I was little.  And I KNOW full well that my bf did NOT rape me when I was in college.  And he knows it wasn’t me who beat him to a pulp as a child, held him under water, put a gun to his head and left him by the side of the road as a young teen.  These were not simple things.

As far as chores... sure they’re boring... but how does she handle these when she’s NOT living with you?  I’m assuming she has lived on her own before she moved in with you?  Has everyone always done chores for her?  Living together means supporting one another in all ways.  That’s one of the ways love is expressed - through simple chores.  “Look!  Your favorite coffee cup or shirt is clean!”  Or here... “you’ve had a long day, I’m running a bubble bath for you, with candles around the tub!”  All things that join into “couples thinking”.    The washing machine can be on the rinse cycle while playing the guitar...  And some people need to be gently coached through that.  At this point in MY life, I’ve no interest in a man who won’t do this. 

I lived with an incredible narcissist for far too long and carried a heavy weight (exH).  And lost years, my soul, my home and tons of money.  I won’t ever do it again.  I was described as “the perfect wife”.  Lesson learned.

If someone REALLY does NOT want to be a PARTNER, believe them.  Sad as it may be, if suicide is the “answer” to a request to do dishes, what happens if you REALLY need something from her?  So you can try the “couple thinking” convo with her and see how that goes.  You can try to explain that supporting one another with daily tasks are sweet expressions of love.  Because they are...in my mind.  And if she will not wash a dish, will she change a diaper, bathe a baby? Nurse a sick baby in the middle of the night?  I don’t know...

Finally... what is this thing about sleeping in bed with other people?  Is she a tantra instructor?   I’m a bit confused- men? Women?  Just keep in mind... expressing your feelings and values does NOT make you “narcissistic”, okay?  That seems to be a go-to word when pwBPD don’t get exactly what they want.  Sort of twisted logic in my book.   I happen to think Tantra is a pretty cool practice.  My uBPDbf was seeing a woman many years ago who got into tantra while he was seeing her, only she took it too far.  She was a more destructive BPD than he is... She is now in her late 50’s and by all appearances, seems more like a prostitute than anything else.

If your values don’t align with your partner’s, you may find yourself accepting things that go completely against your grain.  All in the name of the peaceful love you felt and experienced  during the first 6 months of your relationship.  Please use caution.

I guess my real advice is to be unafraid to know her.  Ask her about who she really believes she is and wants to be.  Listen without interruption.  Maybe things will begin to clarify and you can make a more informed decision down the road.

Is there a path to restart discussions WITHOUT living together?  Perhaps that’s what’s best for you?  I think this is a time for you to focus on YOU.  And the only way to do that, is if BPDgf is not living in your home.  Remember, nothing changes until something changes.

Thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[bradio]

Gem, you just get it. Thanks so much for your posts.
I also do not believe love is unconditional. Unconditional love may be loving yourself to the point that you wont put up with things that don't serve you for the sake of a relationship/person.
you are also correct regarding the chores. When I would visit her when we dated for the first 4 months her place was always tidy and she knew I kept a clean house, not perfect but tidy, from all the overnight stays when living apart. She seemed to contribute really well prior to her moving in. It did come as a surprise to me that when she moved in she was so untidy and messy. When we discussed this after the fights about housework she told me she only really cleaned her house when people were coming over. I wasn't aware of this as her place was always clean when I would go. She obviously is capable of doing the work but just doesn't really want to and I guess she knew eventually I would do it as I want it done. This was part of the set up I guess.
I also believe and did nice things like her washing or run a bath or give  a massage if she had a busy time as I have more flexibility in my business. This has always been something I like to do in relationship. It was reciprocated at times as well. I also want a partner to contribute on all levels.
The questions you pose re chores v something important like a baby or illness are things I have asked her before as well. She just replied when that happens I will be different. She also had a need to get away as soon as we had any real discussion. I suggested this was not always going to be something that can happen and we need to find other ways to resolve the issues without her running away all the time. Taking space and time are very different to just disappearing and then reappearing like nothing has happened and everything is fine. Yet when she wanted to talk about her problems I was always available.
She has a Tantra teacher qualification and had done a training course about 4 months before we got together in Bali. I told her I couldn't be with her if she was practising with other people before we got together as that doesn't meet my relationship needs. She said she had done the course as a way to help her deal with her childhood trauma and was comfortable just keeping the practise for us. This changed numerous times hence the first two breakups when she said she wanted to do an mo massage(sexually energetic massages) on men and women. I said no. She came back and said she would put us first. The second time she wanted to work with women and her friends and to show couples how to do the massages for each other. Again I was uncomfortable with her doing that as for me any of these practises create an intimacy that I only want to share with her and no one else. She again relented and said she was just testing me. The last straw was when she went to her friends place and the arrangement previously when she would visit this friend was that he would take the lounge and she would get his bed. She rang me after having stayed there and told me they made the decision to stay in the same bed together and it didn't matter because the guy is gay and as it was late and he was a bit sick it was just easier. I said I accepted what she had told me however in future I would like to have that discussion before she makes a decision like that as it could have an impact on our relationship. Is this unfair of me?
The fact they have been friends for over 8 years and this had never happened before and now it has i found very odd as well. Anyway she disagreed strongly and suggested she is an adult and can make her own decisions and I just have to trust she will make the right decisions for us regardless of who she decides to spend a night in bed with. Again gay or not gay sleeping in bed with someone other than my partner is just not on and I have never done this in relationship. This didn't sit well with me at all. She did finally agree that it was reasonable to have the discussion before hand if this was ever to happen again, which I was comfortable with and was all I was asking. Then it all came up again and I was controlling and jealous and narcissistic. I was also insecure because I wouldn't let her practise tantra with other people, both men and women, and if I was secure I would let her do whatever she wanted. This is where the  single discussion occurred as I said doing as you please when you want with no consequence is the mindset of a single person and really shows no consideration for a partner if in a relationship. She agreed.
Now don't get me wrong I loved the tantra and the closeness that created. We did a lot of great healing and connecting but it is so intimate that I don't want to share that with anyone but my partner. Is that unfair?
We had done a heap of courses and reading and study. We had our couple bubble(putting each other and the relationship first) and when we were in the bedroom we were fantastic in terms of listening and connecting. It just seemed she always wanted more and the idea of teaching random people these practises seemed more important to her than having a loving intimate relationship with me until PLEASE READ hits the fan and then I am flavour of the week again and she is held and reassured and safe again. This was the cycle although I can tell you she never practised with anyone else while we were together. Her other claim was that today she could say she wanted to be with me and tantra was off the table but tomorrow may be different so lets just enjoy today. Now I agree with some of that philosophy but in a partner where we are talking about marriage and kids I need more than you only get today.   
You are also correct around if our values do not align it will lead to accepting things that I don't want. The simple things that are important to me just seemed to have no impact on her. She didn't understand how these things mattered in relationship and unfortunately for me they do. Consideration and support were two things I asked for 3 times in our relationship. Twice she told me if you want those things you need to provide them for yourself and the other time she said if she could she would but she cant. Now again I agree with aspects of this but I do want a partner that is at least willing to try to help. The support I was looking for was around the housework and consideration of my feelings when she made decisions that impact both of us.
After rereading this I feel very sad. 18 months is all it took for me to completely lose myself in her and her world and I am still stuck in it now even when I am out.
My sister and her husband have said what does she have over you that you would stay or want that back. I cant even answer the question outside of when it was good is was the best unfortunately the opposite also applies.
I have to try to stay strong but suspect if she was to reach out I would listen and more than likely get dragged back in. I have had periods in the last few days where I felt like my internals/emotions were settling but when I think about her I can get activated back into again without her even being here.
Appreciate the help Gems. Any thing else to suggest or offer?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey bradio-

Please try to remember, you are mere weeks out of the relationship, not months.  So all of this is very fresh.  It’s okay if your sister and her husband don’t understand what’s keeping your thoughts wrapped up in this.  They see how badly you’re hurting, want the best for you and are praying that you STAY out.  That’s understandable.  If neither has lived the reality of a BPD relationship, they don’t have the context.  Still, you can accept their comfort with an open heart.  I’m sure you do.

Regarding the Tantra.  As much as I too believe it is a valuable practice, if you’re not comfortable with BPDgf engaging that intimately with other people, than that’s that.  Your feelings are your feelings and it is unfair for ANYONE to try to talk away your feelings.  Or to tell you your feelings are wrong.  Full stop.  We need validation just like our BPD partners do.  Tho’ that seems to go unrecognized at times.  And as you say, it may be one day off the table and the next day back on... and THAT is the recipe for the creation of insecurities and distrust.  Not good.

Here is a snippet.  My exH decided that going on a 5-night backpacking trip with another woman would be a good idea.  I had heard of her but didn’t know her.  And he opted to do it when my entire family was visiting us from across the country.  Over the years I had trained myself to believe that I wasn’t responsible for his behavior or his decisions; and I had to trust him to “do the right thing”.  Stupid, I know.  After everyone left, I asked him not to do that again.  All I got were arguments about how “wrong” I was to “feel” any way about it.  This was the beginning of when I knew my marriage was on shaky ground.  He had lost respect for me.  That was a big deal.

In your case, I don’t believe either the Tantra or sleeping in bed with other men are situations of “only single people do that” or “she’s an adult” and can “make her own decisions”... no.  It’s more about do you and she agree / align on what makes you comfortable?  If your partner is uncomfortable, that should be enough.

Can she go to a tantra studio or someone’s home, do her massage or practice and while she’s there can you rest easy with whatever she’s doing and whoever she’s with?  If the answer is an unequivocal “yes” you’re comfortable, then there’s no issue.  If the answer is an unequivocal “no”, this will haunt you, then this may be your deal breaker.  And there is NOTHING WRONG with you.  We are different here, you and I.  Sex means nothing to me except with my uBPDbf.  I can completely remove (disassociate) myself from where I physically am.  That’s because of my trauma.  My bf however, would flip a gasket if I were to engage physically with another man.  And I would NOT do that to him.

Re: the housework.. I believe if you’re there to do it now, and you’re there to do it after you have a baby, then it will be you to do it.  It just will.  She will ALWAYS have a reason, so prepare yourself.  Your feelings will not be considered when you get married if she’s not already in that place.  Putting on a beautiful white dress and having a ceremony and party do not change who a person is...it does NOT heal what ails them.

You are getting a picture of your life and what it will be.  There will just “JUST” be the added security for HER of a marriage.  And the added burden on you.  So eyes wide open, my friend.  Nothing will change unless something changes.

It’s back to that “No, adult love is NOT unconditional”.  So what real changes do YOU need and want for this to work for YOU?  To my way of thinking, those are the real questions.

I will tell you... Things CAN change.  About 9 months into my 6 year relationship with uBPDbf I had come to realize that he was drinking at least an entire bottle of wine each night.  I barely take 2 shots of whiskey each year; and then only when I’m singing.  I have reason to dislike heavy drinking.  I told him that I was sorry, but if he continued drinking wine like that, I would need to end the relationship.  He has never touched wine again; and this was in early 2014.  He loved me.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[bradio]

Hi Gem, as usual you make a valid point about still being just out of the relationship. you are also correct regarding my sister and family. I know they say stay away or I am better off because they love me and can see me hurting.

The tantra commentary is also correct but it has always been this way for me and I have stated this to her constantly from the start. She had some idea that we could teach it together as a couple but it is not something that I want to do outside of the bedroom with my partner. This was never a point of confusion for me and I was always clear on this. It was the reason I said no to her after our first and second date. I said the idea of that in relationship just doesn't fit me. So she knew where I stood on this issue from the start. The distrust and insecurities would rise every time she would bring it up. After being in for 18 months I was committed to try to make the relationship work but this was/is still a dealbreaker for me.

Your disclosure about your exh is similar to my story. I am not sure why it would be so difficult to understand if I have an issue with it, even if she doesn't, she could either explain it to me kindly or just accept that for me it makes me feel unsafe. The reverse is that any issue she had with me, even if it isn't important to me, it is quite easy to accommodate her feelings. Part of being with someone I think. If it matters to them it will matter to me, obviously within reason.

As you suggest I also would not do this to her or any partner if it was upsetting to them, if they meant something to me anyway. You are correct about the always having a reason or excuse around any thing I had an issue with. If I raised the dishes or the housework or etc... the problem was I had patterns and controlling behaviours. With all of my previous live in partners these simple things were all givens and certainly didn't raise the same levels of rage or anger. I also let her change the rules around the housework so she felt more in control where if you didn't want to do something you could voice it and do it at a later time. I gave her every chance to voice and have the house run in whatever way would make her feel comfortable and it still wasn't enough. I told her if she was unhappy she could set the rules. This threw her as then she would be the "bad guy" and whatever she set she would have to stick to as they were her choices. She struggled with all of this even though it was what she wanted. IS this a common trait as well. That when they get what they want they then don't want it?

We need to be equals for this to work for me and at the moment that is not the case. I am being portrayed as the authority figure because I own the house, the business and set the rules according to her and she feels like a kid getting in trouble whenever I say can you support and help me with some of this. Will this ever change for her Gem? Is this a common trait as well?

It sounds like you have developed good strategies with your current partner but I guess the difference is he is willing to listen and understand you and obviously does love you. In having attempted something similar with my ex just prior to our parting she tried to jump out of a moving car as she disliked what she was hearing and didn't accept any of it. It still hurts to think the issues that were so innocuous were not the real issues were they.
Thoughts?

[once removed]

Is there a right way or wrong way to voice ones opinions and thoughts?

it takes a great deal of strength to be in a relationship with someone with bpd traits. there are skills, both relationship skills and coping skills, that can either make a great deal of difference, or for some at least get the relationship to a more "tolerable" level.

i learned them after my relationship ended. i swear by them. they work. i use them with everyone in my life.

they cant make just any relationship work. they cant align the values of two different people. in fact, if anything, sometimes its by working to a healthier place ourselves, that we can begin to see that.

its very important, whether in the relationship, going back to it, or coming out of it, to look back and see the areas where we can improve, the lessons we want to take into future relationships. its not the same thing as saying the relationship could be perfect, or that it could be saved.

[bradio]

You are correct once removed. I did try to speak in a different language, and sometimes I got it right but more often than not it was not received with the intent spoken which led to real frustration on my part as it seemed I was damned if I do or I don't. When she doesnt know how or what she needs in terms of what she wants to hear from me it really sets me up for failure. If I say something that can activate her almost as much as if I don't say something. It is the eggshells stuff I guess. Even when i would ask her how can I help or support you in this I would often get you should just know and I shouldn't have to tell you. It hurts to hear that.
I have learnt some valuable lessons that I will take forward whether we get back together or not.
Can you share one or some of the ways you have changed your language in terms of this type of relationship to see if I was/am on the right track?
I also agree the difference in values is a real problem that I guess cant be fixed with any number of conversations. The issue for me is, as I have stated and others have mentioned, when she tells me that she wants the same things I do one day, and I believe she means it, it is hard to let go of that when she changes her mind. Again is that just the nature of this type of personality or is it a fundamental difference in values? These are the questions that make my head spin as it just makes little sense to me. 
I am always open to looking for ways to become a better person so any advice will be warmly received. Cheers, Bradio.