Handling BPD dad's sadistic behavior

[woodlily]

Hi! This is my first post.

I'm an adult, whose dad has BPD. My childhood was physically and emotionally abusive, but with years of therapy I have been able to develop clarity and self-love. Due to my current life circumstances, it's important that I maintain a pleasant relationship with my dad, and I'm still learning how to most effectively navigate that.

My dad is emotionally volatile, and can be very cruel and sadistic. He seems to get immense satisfaction out of upsetting and harming me. In his eyes, he is always right, and my feelings don't matter. I didn't have boundaries growing up, and my attempts to set boundaries lately have not gone over too well because he doesn't respect them, and likes to get a fearful or "grossed-out" reaction out of me.

I'm trying to figure out what the most effective response (or lack of response) would be for a particular subject he likes to upset me with. Sometimes I am around him at dinnertime, and he is well aware that I choose to eat a vegan diet. Despite that, he likes to wave meat in front of me, and taunt me with it, talking in gory detail about killing animals. During my childhood there were multiple occasions when he tortured and killed animals, and did obscene things to their bodies. The last time he tried to provoke me with this kind of conversation, I got very flustered and meekly said, "I don't want to talk about it". After that, he laughed his sadistic laugh, and said sarcastically, "Oookay". Another time I was mashing a sweet potato and he said, "Are you killing those potatoes in there?".

I wonder if it's better to just not respond? Although if I flat-out ignore him, he might get really mad. I want to stay true to my values and take care of myself, and I am trying to not live in fear. Is there a way to set a boundary in this kind of situation?

[pursuingJoy]

Hi woodlily!  Thanks for sharing what's going on with your dad!  I'm so sorry you're having to endure this cruelty. It is so sad to me that he can't honor a simple life choice like becoming vegan. There is something about abusing the power dynamic between a parent and child that just burns me up. A healthy parent would honor the child's choices, encourage independent thinking and find ways to show their support. 

You said your life circumstances require that you maintain a pleasant relationship. Is there a time frame for these life circumstances or is it indefinite?

Check out this link about boundaries: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

"Take action. Measured. Steady. Consistent.
Know your priorities.  Don't get caught up in dramas (conflict where one or both parties want to "win the fight" and have lost sight of solutions).
Remember, the goal is not to fight or to argue what is right and wrong in an ideal world, or to have it your way, or to control others. 
The goal is to live true to your values (1) and the dependent values of the relationship (2)."

One thing I've learned from others on this site is that boundaries are more about your personal values than they are about controlling another person's behavior. You have a clear value: eating vegan. However you decide to defend this boundary, be it by speaking up or letting it roll off your back and out the door, stick to it. Your dad may demean, challenge, push and condescend, but it sounds like he's already doing that.

Again, so sorry you're having to deal with this. Keep talking!

pj

[woodlily]

Thanks for your reply! My current need to maintain a pleasant relationship with him is likely longer-term, due to financial reasons. I don't think he is against my choice to eat a vegan diet, but his attempts to upset me are the behavior that I would like to set a boundary around, if I can do it in a gentle way. I'll definitely continue to eat vegan. I'd like to be able to refrain from defending or explaining when he says things argumentatively such as, "What's wrong with butter?". Maybe if I have a couple of go-to phrases that I can repeat (the broken-record technique) such as, "No thank you. It's just my preference", so as not to get him going. If he starts trying to upset me by talking about violence, I wonder if it would be better to keep repeating, "I would prefer not to talk about that", instead of being a little more firm and saying, "Please don't talk about that with me". I feel very guilty after setting boundaries, even though rationally I have the right to do so. Thanks for your support!

[HappyChappy]

Hi Woodlilly,

Your father does sound frustrating, I’d get wound up by that behaviour. My sister is vegetarian and my BPD would never stop winding her up about it. Also my bro is uber sadistic, he killed 3 pets and would spend days on end torturing insects. There is such a thing as sadistic personality disorder. It can be co morbid with BPD. The only time my bro laughs or smiles is when someone hurts themselves or he’s wound you up. He was also very violent.

You’ve answered your own question in a way. Your dad is trying to get a rise out of you by attacking areas he thinks will provoke one. A bit like a school boy does. So there's a technique known as medium chill. This is where you don’t ignore them (as you rightly point out) but you don’t engage. So flat emotions and simply acknowledge what they say with a “yes” or “Ok” . If they can never get a rise out of you they give up eventually and try some other trigger or some other person. I overcame my fear of spiders and the dark, but I’ve never told my BPD, so she often focus on those and I play along so she doesn’t focus on my real triggers. I hope that helps.

[woodlily]

Hey thanks for your reply! I'll try out Medium Chill. Sometimes when he says something inappropriate, I don't say anything at all, and I think he might realize that he didn't think before he spoke. But during times when he is in my personal space and trying to provoke me, I could see myself trying Medium Chill.

I'm sorry for what you went through with your brother, that sounds so upsetting. The only times my dad really, fully laughs is when he hurts or humiliates someone, or when he watches TV and sees someone get hurt, especially when the plot makes him decide that they "had it coming". It's funny to him. Other times if I share something positive, and I look at his face, it's like he has to really force a smile, and it ends up looking fake and makes me feel strange. I think he has so much unhappiness and rage inside that this is how he views the world and survives.

[gotbushels]

woodlily  

Dealing with an aggressive family member trying to get your goat is a different level of chore. I understand that. I join the other members here in welcoming you. I support your discussion.


I didn't know HappyChappy's response was a 'thing'. I somehow ended up doing the same thing with difficult people in my life that try to get my goat. I used something very similar but on people like an ex-boss of mine.

The perks HappyChappy's response has in my view are twofold:

1) It's a low-effort response.

2) It stays disengaged.

I've done this before, and it's a good way to remain neutral and not engage. I think the key is to have what HappyChappy called 'flat emotions'.

A big tip I'd give you here is to practice alone. Don't let him see what you're up to.

Try to use agreement and neutral answers as much as possible. When I think of dialogues like this, I see a person lighting a match. Your response is to put out the match before it touches the fuse on the dynamite.

The reasoning behind all this is as follows. Some people derive pleasure out of riling up others. From what I gather, it's a type of schadenfreude, and it's actually linked to a lot of unlawful behaviour. So if you're having difficulty dealing with this, know that this kind of pleasure causes great grief to the police—so of course dealing with it can be super tricky.

Anyway, this pleasure seeking from the pain of others seems apparent in your father's behaviour. When you flinch, squirm, or 'get flustered', then you know that's feeding their pleasure. The point is not to make your dad out to be a criminal. I share this because you said you wanted an effective response, and knowing this cuts to the core of what will make you more effective in these dialogues. If you know what he's looking for, you know what to give him, and what not to give him.

Give him a response, but don't feed his pleasure seeking. To do that, keep with HappyChappy's response. And of course, don't ever let the cat out of the bag with what you're doing because the only thing worse than a goat-getter is one that knows if and how you're managing him.

Oh and it always helps to have a plan B. If you can avoid the dialogue with him altogether, that means a peaceful night for your dinner. If he gets in your space, create space by literally stepping back or leaving the area.

Good luck and enjoy your weekend.

[woodlily]

Thank you, that was a really helpful analogy to better understand the behavior pattern. I tried "putting out the match" in a recent series of interactions (in a pleasant, medium chill way), and while the interactions were "mild", the technique seemed to be successful. Toward the end of the evening, he appeared to be in a negative mood state, giving passive-aggressive/martyr-sounding answers to another family member. I'm not sure if this mood was reinforced by my use of the technique. It's often difficult to tell why he is in this mood state, but I'd like to work on accepting the reality that I'm not responsible for his feelings.

[Harri]

Hi woodlily and welcome to the board.  

I think medium chill can be a great technique to use especially when coupled with boundaries that govern how we respond and having appropriate expectations about the behaviors of other people.

We have a thread here that discusses the ins and out and pros and cons of medium chill that I want to share with you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=114204.0  Sometimes medium chill works and sometimes it does not.  It can also be mis-used if applied as a more passive aggressive way of interacting with someone so understanding more about it is important.  

When dealing with a person with sadistic behaviors, I think self protection is the most important.  If you can't do that with physical space, mental and emotional space is even more important.  Boundaries will accomplish that as will working on self differentiation.

 

EDIT:  I forgot to provide this link on Triggering, Mindfulness and Wise Mind which can also go a long way in terms of helping you cope and manage your own emotions.     

[woodlily]

Thank you for the links! Mindfulness and Wise Mind are my go-to resources, very helpful ones indeed. I can see how Medium Chill could be interpreted as passive-aggressive, especially by someone with BPD. Even when I think I've used a gentle, lighthearted, voice tone, and very neutral language, it still sometimes seems to offend my dad. Growing up, I had to overtly agree with his opinions and go along with what he said or did. I wasn't "allowed" to be my own person. Over the last 10 years I've realized that I have a choice, that I'm an individual and that I have my own values and perspectives.

He takes things very personally, and perceives slights or insults when there are none. My habitual response to his presence has been the "freeze" response (fight-flight-freeze), and even though I'm mindful of when I'm in that state, it feels second nature for me to be hyper-aware of my movements and expressions, to avoid them being taken the wrong way. I think this is the "inner child" in me, the neural pathways in my brain that have had a lot of practice firing. Like you mentioned, self-protection is important, and it helps me to know that I will protect myself if I need to.

[Harri]

Hi again!

What I said about Medium Chill being passive aggressive sometimes is not so much related to the reaction of our pwBPD but how we apply and use it.  It does not sound like that is an issue with you however.   

Even when I think I've used a gentle, lighthearted, voice tone, and very neutral language, it still sometimes seems to offend my dad... I wasn't "allowed" to be my own person. Over the last 10 years I've realized that I have a choice, that I'm an individual and that I have my own values and perspectives.

Yes.  That knowledge was, I imagine, hard earned.   

He takes things very personally, and perceives slights or insults when there are none. My habitual response to his presence has been the "freeze" response (fight-flight-freeze), and even though I'm mindful of when I'm in that state, it feels second nature for me to be hyper-aware of my movements and expressions, to avoid them being taken the wrong way. I think this is the "inner child" in me, the neural pathways in my brain that have had a lot of practice firing. Like you mentioned, self-protection is important, and it helps me to know that I will protect myself if I need to.

Would techniques like validation or even Don't invalidate work do you think?   Validation can be very helpful for some people and others, not so much.  sometimes the best we can do is focus on not invalidating someone.  It sounds like you are familiar with some of the tools and skills here so I don't know if this is helpful or not. 

I agree with what you said about your inner child driving the freeze response and the neural pathways firing away as usual.   What have you done to help change those patterns? 

[woodlily]

Thanks! I think the "don't invalidate" would work in this situation, but probably not direct validation. I don't think overtly validating his feelings would work because I think he would take it the wrong way... even something subtle like, "that sounds really frustrating". Maybe in the right circumstance I could try it out, though. I believe that he wants others to join in on the target of his blame, instead of his feelings. His feelings are behaviorally expressed but not talked about. I definitely like to be mindful that I'm not agreeing with his vitriol, and instead that I stick to my values. Just listening nonjudgmentally can sometimes help. It's hard to tell.

For the freeze behavior, I am just mindful of when it's happening. When it happens around other people, I try to take a deep breath and imagine myself softening, and telling myself that I'm safe within myself.