Thread to support each other in not engaging (in texts and calls from co-parent)

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Ugh, there are things that (of course) I have to tell my ex about our kids. But sometimes they trigger him, and then I get a bunch of unrelated texts and calls until I engage back. For instance, recently told him we're taking a trip for a few days. It's just a short road trip to see a relative a few states west of us, for a 3-day weekend. He gets anxious and (I think) jealous and he started demanding that I approve a similar trip for him, that we haven't discussed at all. He just picked this off the top of his head. For days I've gotten texts and calls about it. He also wants to know how I'm paying for the trip even though I work. I KNOW that the best thing to do is not engage, but sometimes he starts adding worse things. I think at times like this I just need the support of people who "get it" until he calms down, to encourage me not to respond. We have a parent coordinator but he canceled the last appointment. Should I brief her on this? If she reaches out to him he'll just get more triggered. Anyway, when he's acting like this it makes it hard for me to function sometimes. The texts and calls don't cross the line to harassment but they sure are annoying.

[momtara]

Ugh, there are things that (of course) I have to tell my ex about our kids. But sometimes they trigger him, and then I get a bunch of unrelated texts and calls until I engage back. For instance, recently told him we're taking a trip for a few days. It's just a short road trip to see a relative a few states west of us, for a 3-day weekend. He gets anxious and (I think) jealous and he started demanding that I approve a similar trip for him, that we haven't discussed at all. He just picked this off the top of his head. For days I've gotten texts and calls about it. He also wants to know how I'm paying for the trip even though I work. I KNOW that the best thing to do is not engage, but sometimes he starts adding worse things. I think at times like this I just need the support of people who "get it" until he calms down, to encourage me not to respond. We have a parent coordinator but he canceled the last appointment. Should I brief her on this? If she reaches out to him he'll just get more triggered. Anyway, when he's acting like this it makes it hard for me to function sometimes. The texts and calls don't cross the line to harassment but they sure are annoying.

[livednlearned]

Hi momtara 

I was thinking about you the other day, wondering how things were going.

What happens when you let spells like this run their course without engaging?

Are you hoping to find a way to manage your own responses to his escalations or figure out a way to appease him (or both)? Or maybe how to walk the fine line where your responses don't make things worse?

Have there been things that are working well in your coparenting situation?

LnL

[worriedStepmom]

They sure can make us crazy.

My H finally moved all communication to an app.  We chose TalkingParents, because it is free and it is pretty simple to use.  He blocked his ex on his phone completely.

She still spews tons of nonsense on the app, but now he doesn't have to look at it all the time.  He waits until he is in a good frame of mind, then he can log in, see what all is there, and respond only to what he thinks deserves a response. 

Taking the urgency out of the response is good, and both sides can see when the other parent read the message.  So there is no more need for 10 copies of the same text, because now she can see that he has not actually read the first one, so no point in sending more.

The app has been a big stress relief. [Plus for a few dollars it will send a PDF of ALL of the conversations, threaded with timestamps, to you for use in legal proceedings.]

[momtara]

LivedandLearned, you have always been a godsend. I still think of your advice from years ago. And Worried, good advice too. Even suggesting an app may make him think twice.

LnL wrote "Are you hoping to find a way to manage your own responses to his escalations or figure out a way to appease him (or both)? Or maybe how to walk the fine line where your responses don't make things worse?"

Don't want to appease him unless it's a reasonable request  (which it isn't). Managing responses would help - both via text and not getting crazy over his responses. When I don't engage, sometimes it stops. Sometimes it ramps up until he finds a way to do something like change his mind about something we agreed to. He doesn't have much coming up to do that with, so that's why he invented a trip.

And now he says he's taking  the kids an extra day in  a few weeks, and he hasn't asked me. I don't know whether to ignore this or politely say "That's fine, but please ask next time" or something. I haven't said anything so far and the texts/calls have stopped (maybe he's busy with work) so that's a relief.

I know that the less engagement, the better. I will also brief our PC. But I am curious how you folks would handle this, especially if he suddenly says HE'S now going on a trip and one of the days is my day. (Again, I don't mind, but I don't want to get him in the habit of thinking he can do this often.) He doesn't have the kids too often.

[livednlearned]

His starting point is probably unfathomable self-loathing, so that means you going on a trip and having money to pay for it makes him feel less than. It's a reminder that he can't do that. The kids will love you more. You are better. He is nothing.

He doesn't want to feel so low and bad and incompetent so he's trying to match what you have, and make himself feel for a fleeting moment what he imagines you feel -- which is competent, capable, employed, organized.  

It's a see saw. He is constantly teetering back and forth.

What do his past actions suggest? Would he actually take the kids?

[momtara]

It also makes him feel bad that we're not together, as he wants. I understand the psychology behind it. It's just frustrating that I got a barrage of calls for 2 nights, and questions. I hope it calms down. It probably will only calm down after the trip.
I did tell him that for the extra day, he has to ask. So he asked by text and I said ok (it's not a big deal, he hasn't had them much) but I don't know if he'll really take them that day. He wants to take them on vacation too.
I think that part will be fine.
I guess it's just hard to be in the web of these calls and texts. If I don't answer, they keep coming.
I haven't mentioned it to our PC yet but it may make things worse if she reaches out to him. I'm glad we even have a PC. There aren't many good ones left in the state and I've interviewed many.

[40days_in_desert]

momtara - My suggestion for your ex's "planned" trip depends on how your agreement is written. For example, my agreement is that each parent gets two non-consecutive weeks per summer with our four youngest kids. It alternates each year as to who gets first pick and a deadline for that first pick to be communicated to the other parent. After that date it's first come-first served. No permission is required unless it's an out of country trip. The parent taking the kids needs to inform the other parent as to where you will be staying with the kids with contact info if it is out of state and overnight. Also the date/time departing and date/time coming back. If your ex has a trip planned and your agreement is like mine, I would simply ask for the required info and leave it at that. I always try to stick to the agreement to the letter so I keep a copy on me at all times.   

In a general sense, my ex has about a 10% follow through rate so odds are she won't do whatever she says she is going to do so the odds are it typically isn't something that I worry about.

As far as the extra day that your ex claims that he is taking your kids, try something like, "I want to be as flexible as possible for our kids. That includes exchanging a day here on occasion. I feel it's best for our kids that each of us request these trades as much in advance as possible. I don't remember your request for (insert date). Can you forward the text/email where you did and the suggested day in trade? " You know your ex so the wording might need to be different. I have also scanned excerpts from our agreement from time to time when she tells me "that's not in the agreement". I also download all of our text exchanges in PDF form via an app called PhoneView and label by date ranges for easier reference.

I know it's frustrating and it's nice to be a part of a community of people who understand even if the circumstances that brought us here aren't desirable.

[livednlearned]

I guess it's just hard to be in the web of these calls and texts. If I don't answer, they keep coming.

Do you feel comfortable sharing the exchange? Maybe we can help point out specific phrases or interactions that you could tweak to help wind things down.

My uBPD step daughter (22) sends me these long, complicated, emotional texts about me being mad at her, sometimes with veiled threats, how I don't do this or that with her -- a big victim sandwich. I've had to learn short phrases to neutralize what would otherwise become a silly drama over something that happened 5 months ago. Meanwhile, she's texting jokes to her dad who is standing 3 feet away ...

It's a bit different with you because you're raising kids with your ex, but perhaps there are responses that keep the flames going rather than make the target smaller?

[momtara]

I will try to give some examples. Today he called about 10 times in a row, in the morning, to claim I wasn't calling him with the children. I simply answered that I always did call, and that I followed the agreement by calling them at X time every day. I did take the first few calls from him even though he just wanted to argue. Then I stopped taking them. Eventually the calls stopped. I didn't elaborate much in my responses, and didn't give him new ammo. So that was good. He kept trying to refer to my upcoming trip, which is really what's rankling him, but I didn't go there.

I had to leave to do errands with the kids, and we were near the police station, and if he'd kept calling I was going to tell him I was there and that his calls were becoming alarming, and threaten to sign a complaint. The calls stopped just in time (he must have a 6th sense). While the calls DO eventually stop, it's pretty scary that they keep coming and that he tries to engage me in arguments. I have to answer the calls less often. I did stop taking them, so I guess I made some progress. My therapist and others have told me I just need to set boundaries.

But I worry he'll fire off a new barrage of calls today. And that he'll do it tomorrow, the next day, and during each day of our trip. I wish he'd deal with being triggered some other way.

On my end, I guess I just need to be reminded not to engage. As far as threatening to sign a complaint, and getting our PC involved, I'm never sure what the right thing is. I suppose if he does all of this again tomorrow, I'll tell him the calls are becoming alarming (that's the phrasing the police once told me to use). Hopefully that will get him to stop, although I'm not quite sure it will. He needs to keep me engaged to have some form of control. When I take a trip (rarely) I have to give him notice in advance, but not get his permission - and I'm sure that bothers him.

[livednlearned]

What would happen if you said to him, "Your tone is becoming antagonistic. Let's move this important discussion to email. We can discuss the content of the emails with support from the PC if we aren't able to resolve this in the next 24 hours."

Then mute your phone (or just him if you can do that on your phone)?

I didn't elaborate much in my responses, and didn't give him new ammo. So that was good. He kept trying to refer to my upcoming trip, which is really what's rankling him, but I didn't go there. ... I did stop taking them, so I guess I made some progress.

This is really great! Is he inundating you with calls more than he used to?

I worry he'll fire off a new barrage of calls today. And that he'll do it tomorrow, the next day, and during each day of our trip. I wish he'd deal with being triggered some other way.

People who struggle to regulate emotions tend to be impulsive -- I have had some success communicating my boundaries to SD22, mostly through inaction, but with my uBPD ex, the most effective method was to isolate the technology and manage him that way. In the early days, I had a friend read his emails and then tell me what if anything required a response. I was getting ready to have two phone numbers and move my email address so that I had a dedicated line and address for ex but fortunately didn't have to take it that far.

As far as threatening to sign a complaint, and getting our PC involved, I'm never sure what the right thing is.

I can understand. If the problem is that it's hard to set boundaries, then the PC might think, Why doesn't momtara handle this? Why does she keep asking me for help?

How about asking for suggestions on how to phrase a boundary? "I'm becoming alarmed about these calls and want to figure out a way to communicate. I'm thinking of saying xyz. What are your thoughts on this?"

As opposed to, "He keeps calling me and bugging me and I don't know what to do. Help me."

[ForeverDad]

I'm in one of my moods today.  (Yikes!)  If I was near the police station I'd be tempted to say "I told the deputy I'm getting repeated calls from you and I'm alarmed.  The deputy wants to know, would you like the deputy to talk to you?"

[momtara]

Yes, I think my PC didn't like me saying, "I don't know what to do." But it's true. She sent me an email today saying to go to her appointment app schedule a 30-minute "referral call" on the phone with her. Does that mean she's going to refer us to another PC? There are so few good ones in my area, and our last one quit, so we got HER. My ex canceled our last appointment so she may be fed up with this, and a year ago she said to him, during our appointment, "You know what happens if parent coordinating fails?" So now I'm worried that she's going to tell me that she can't help us anymore - but I can't imagine we're worse than others couples. My email to her over the weekend was the first one I'd sent her in two months. Yes, Lived and Learned, I need to be more specific in what I request from her, but I'm often clueless. I'm not a psychologist or social worker. Now I'm getting worked up about whether this call will be helpful or whether she's going to say she's wiping her hands of us, and since there aren't many skilled PCs around (she actually trains some of them) I'm going to be left alone to deal with him. I can't afford to go to court for a new PC and they're also expensive, while I'm broke. And I did a long PC search twice in the last 2 years and most of them were completely unhelpful.

Parent coordinating worked pretty well for a while. But after he skipped the last appointment things got worse. Maybe I need to tell her that I think it was helpful and I want to try to schedule an appointment. If he cancels or backs out, then I don't know what I'll do though. Can't afford court at this point. And I'm not sure of our parenting schedule for the next few months because something threw it off course, but I guess he'll let me know. I want to get some boundaries back.

[momtara]

Update: I did talk to my PC. She is going to ask him for us to set up an appointment before the end of the summer, but just her asking will trigger him. We need to set a schedule of appointments so there isn't a battle every time she asks.

On another note, ex says he's taking the kids on a vacation during the next weekend he has them (which he's never done before) and gave me the details. It's only a few hours away but it seems like he's just doing it to unnerve me. He told the kids he had canceled it, but tells me it's still on. I HATE that he's now bringing the kids into this manipulation. I guess I'll just have to act as if it's still on (he wants me to pack their clothes for it and stuff) but it does make me a bit nervous.

[momtara]

Ugh, he's still harassing. He has been harassing in subtle ways all summer, texting late at night to ask questions that he knows the answer to, sometimes calling late. I am guessing our PC did reach out to him and that's why. I am trying, once again, not to let it bother me and not to engage, but it's so hard not to be unnerved.

[livednlearned]

What is the worst thing that has happened after episodes like this? I don't mean that hypothetically, more trying to understand what his worst looks like.

[12years]

MamaTara:
You are getting good advice here it looks like. I don't know how you handle when it keeps ringing and ringing. It ruins the whole concept of having a phone to connect with people you want to talk to! You don't even want to look at your phone, in case there is a nasty text or 10 calls! I got a temporary restraining order so my H can't harass and if he does I can copy and paste it or take a picture of the amount of calls and send it to the lawyer. Do you have a temp restraining order or are you divorced already? I guess the temp restraining order no longer applies after the decree? Oh lord! I don't even look at my phone at night and plug it in somewhere not near me. But, I know that a situation just like yours is going to come up. They seem to go crazy when you take the kids on a trip! He knew where were going, I told him the days but he insisted I didn't tell him which hotel. And in general gave me a really hard time about taking them when he could have taken them the weekend before somewhere (it was Spring Break).
He pestered me with texts while on the trip and I wrote back "please stop harassing me" and it made him stop. I read a book with great ways to stop the harassment, because it comes in many forms/situations, it was called "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Healy Evans.
It sounds like you are doing well and I hope the kids survive the trip with their Dad. Now that's a whole another story, right?