SIL and Family Conflict - Also, introducing myself

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi All,

Just found this site . I still get very anxious posting online as a lot of my triggers are from being hounded online by my SIL.  My (potential_ BP and NPD) married my BIL and he has changed completely to always enabling her.  They have been through some very painful life circumstances and since them they have resorted to even more shaming, blaming and reactive behaviours.  
A decade a go those behaviours were already there but I was gaslit and blamed myself and apologised for doing something in response to their very controlling behaviours.  Finally the rest of the family has realised what is going on as they started to receive the behaviour too.  It has gone from 'why don't you call me?" to "you should have visited us ( from 8 hour round trip away location while I was sick and husband worked 6 days a week) more and you have been horrible to us" blaming behaviour.
 We drew boundaries and the rage flamed up and the abuse got worse, so I had to block them from all social media channels.  We live 4 hours and a plane ride away now but its extremely painful to watch the hurt they cause close family and the way people who don't know that side of them continually validate lies, performances of perfection and the way they will shame people on social media ( not mentioning names).  I used to be so terrified they would shame me by name and now I have withdrawn and detached I feel better but it gives me heart palpitations and triggers just to think of being in their presence.  Hoping to learn some coping skills here after reading "stop walking on eggshells" and being here.

[Amstine]

Hi All,

Just found this site . I still get very anxious posting online as a lot of my triggers are from being hounded online by my SIL.  My (potential_ BP and NPD) married my BIL and he has changed completely to always enabling her.  They have been through some very painful life circumstances and since them they have resorted to even more shaming, blaming and reactive behaviours.  
A decade a go those behaviours were already there but I was gaslit and blamed myself and apologised for doing something in response to their very controlling behaviours.  Finally the rest of the family has realised what is going on as they started to receive the behaviour too.  It has gone from 'why don't you call me?" to "you should have visited us ( from 8 hour round trip away location while I was sick and husband worked 6 days a week) more and you have been horrible to us" blaming behaviour.
 We drew boundaries and the rage flamed up and the abuse got worse, so I had to block them from all social media channels.  We live 4 hours and a plane ride away now but its extremely painful to watch the hurt they cause close family and the way people who don't know that side of them continually validate lies, performances of perfection and the way they will shame people on social media ( not mentioning names).  I used to be so terrified they would shame me by name and now I have withdrawn and detached I feel better but it gives me heart palpitations and triggers just to think of being in their presence.  Hoping to learn some coping skills here after reading "stop walking on eggshells" and being here.

[Harri]

Hi and welcome!

We do have members here who are dealing with an in-law with BPD/BPD traits so you are not alone.  How often they post varies.  Regardless, we can still help you.  the same tools and coping skills apply in any sort of relationship and are actually good to learn for interactions with everyone we encounter.

You mentioned you set boundaries.  Can you tell us more?  Boundaries regarding what?  How did you present them and enforce them?  The more detail you share the more we can help you either tweak boundaries if needed or suggest coping skills.

In the meantime, keep reading and jump into threads as we all learn from each other here. 

You may want to read this thread that is about dealing with an In-Law: 
4.21 | BPD in-laws: Experiences and coping strategies  See what you think and then we can talk about it. 

Again,

[Amstine]

Thankyou so much for the response! 

Well the boundary I set was textbook.  My SIL had a lot of followers on facebook wishing her well on the birthday of her recently deceased son. Which was obviously very upsetting, as anniversaries are the hardest  I was travelling and didn't get back til late and then saw that people were saying particular things that seemed confusing. They were saying his age was *  - but he had died at the previous age? It felt like a strange text was required of me ( as is usually the case with them, get it wrong and suffer a long lecture). So I took time to think about it and sent my condolences on the next day.  She told me she was upset that I didn't send her condolences on the day ( this has always been a big point of contention for them - they want presents and wishes exactly on the day or they get upset and obviously it was her son's birthday and only a few months after he died, but they had been using they son's declining health and death to blame others for 'not helping').  I said I was so sorry she felt upset and explained what a crazy weekend it had been and that we always love them and are praying for them many times a day ( I am writing my phd and was on a writing retreat and my husband works a lot so it was a rare time). 
She reiterated that she wanted it on the day and told me I shouldn't apologise for how she felt but apologise for doing wrong.  I responded that I couldn't take responsibility like that, I explained that I was limited in my abilities and I wanted to be clear that right now I could not live up to her expectations.  I have a chronic illness that makes me very fatigued.
So that was my boundary, I said I could not live up to expectations beyond my capacity and I refused to accept an emotional slap for it.
So she started sending me screenshots of a book on grief and told me that there was a type of apology I must give her. I reiterated my first boundary. She had the last word.
Then she got my BIL to send the same screenshots to my husband and a demand that I apologise immediately.  It has been really upsetting as we have been holding off an ignoring bad behaviour during the illness and death and planned not to make a stand until 12 months after the death. 
They are masters of FOG and even posted photos of my young nephew writhing in pain on facebook to get attention during his illness.  My FIL is perplexed and reading SWOE was really helpful.  I think my SIL is NPD and possible BPD as well, my BIL used to be a good friend of mine, now he writes mean emails to my other brother in law and calls him hateful for being firm and clear.  I just wish it was over, but also so glad that they aren't hiding it as well now and I'm not alone in the emotional abuse.  For years even my husband didn't believe me and now I have more trust and support that what is happening is real. Thanks for asking and listening,.  I really appreciate the support.  I often feel guilty like I shouldn;t be finishing my PhD. Before we left the state to move away, I was underachieving and felt worthless and living far away has given me the freedom to finally stop defending myseld and build my talents and skills.

[Jareth89]

Amstine my sil is bpd/npd traits and my twin brother is enabling. I also have a health condition which is fatiguing but my sil has no interest in how that affects me and regularly undermines whatever I say about my condition and tries to imply that I exaggerate my symptoms or that my interpretation of symptoms is incorrect. Generally I cannot be right about anything and she uses this assumption (that I am not right) to undermine me and devalue me to my brother...thus weakening the relationship with my brother as she convinces him to think negatively about me. In her eyes, a devalued me makes her relationship with him stronger. That's why I think when I said I could cure my medical condition she didn't seem pleased or ask me any questions about what I was doing. She also succeeded in turning my brother against me last year when I could have done with some support while I was trawling through the medical literature and consulting with doctors. It may also be that she resented the time I was spending on my medical work which meant I couldn't visit her as often as I usually do. I just don't know...she never gives a reason for her behaviours so I can only guess. She doesn't even say 'Hey you didn't come over in a while, why don't come over soon it would be nice to see you?'. She's just passive aggressive or gives the silent treatment or punishes me in some way if I haven't done what she expects and she wants me to mind read.

The concern with my brother is because now that I know her nature, when he interacts with me I don't know if it's really him or she pressured him to discuss various matters with me. He seems to act on her behalf now and I feel that if he doesn't succeed in persuading me do a certain thing then he gets hell from her when he gets back. So in essence, she is controlling his relationship with me. Often my brother gets annoyed with me if he doesn't get the response he wants from me, because he knows he will be going back to his wife to give a thumbs down which she will then berate him for.  I am also now reluctant to share my life with him because he tends to share everything with her not realising that this is adding fuel to the fire. So my relationship with my brother is not as it should be but i''m hoping to correct this situation. I'm going to advise him to set down boundaries with my sil but if she doesn't respond well to this and demands to have everything her own way, no matter how destructive, then I do not know what is going to happen. I already told my brother on one occasion that he was being manipulated and when i said that, he had a moment of realisation on his face, but then went back into denial. That was interesting to watch. I feel sorry for him genuinely...if he faces reality he will lose everything he has built up...but he may have a chance to find a woman who can actually care for him and he will have a much better life as a result.

He is very lucky that I can see things for what they are, that I have done some homework and that I care enough to not let him drown in the unfortunate circumstances. There are many who just turn their backs in this world.

[Amstine]

Wow, what you're saying rings so true to me.  That must be hard having your own twin brother become her enabler,  I know what you mean about never knowing if its a true interaction or one orchestrated and coerced by the SIL.  I am so glad you had the courage to say that he was being manipulated.  We tried to give our BIL a way out recently ( my husband's brother so he has tried and tried to show him love validation and support bc we have seen how controlling and invalidating his wife can be to him) that the behaviour we were seeing was from SIL.
My FIL was convinced that we could get through to him, and he made it veery clear that he was deciding to behave this way ( trying to get family shunned and excluded from family events, sending gaslighting text messages to FIL saying that my other SIL was a bad unkind person - when she is extremely kind and gentle and usually laughs off the BPD behaviour). 
We keep hoping that as more and more people get shunned from their inner circle that BIL might just make the connection, that instead of 200 people being thoughtless and bad, they are being too critical and exclusive.  They keep spiralling deeper and deeper into criticising others for any imagined slight or even just asking if they are ok "too much" despite their loyalty for 5 years supporting them during the cancer fight.  They seem to only have people in their lives that are distant enough to continually validate - or those that accept everything they say and not get close enough to question whether they are coping.  I also keep praying for a moment like your brother had! A moment of enlightenment and not supressing it.
My BIL has 3 kids with SIL so he is in deep and worked part-time and done lots of kid wrangling while SIL has done a lot of work.  I think you are doing the right thing, speaking truth, but holding your own counsel that their insults and threats are just emotional projection and they are not seeing you truly as a good person.  Thanks so much for commenting and engaging with me, I appreciate it so much.  I feel so alone and when I think about it too much my people pleasing makes me want to just say the lie of apology, but its too far gone now, the stories are getting to more and more cousins, close friends etc that used to enable them, its obvious even to the most toxic enablers.

[Jareth89]

That must be hard having your own twin brother become her enabler,  I know what you mean about never knowing if its a true interaction or one orchestrated and coerced by the  SIL

Yeah it was confusing and difficult to understand that he was adapting to her abnormal behaviour instead of reprimanding her. The problem in my case is that her parents (definitely NPD to some extent) enable her. I think she distorts the truth to them so that blame which should be directed at her is deflected. Her parents never actually tell me what she has said to them or never fact check with me anything that has happened, I just receive their judgement. Her parents also appear to manipulate my brother. I feel that they are training my brother to be obedient to them and i've already seen him 'dancing to their tune' which was unnerving to watch. Untangling the dynamics and understanding how that 3-person unit works (her parents and their daughter) and figuring out the influence they have over my brother is mentally very challenging. But I think they do know that I don't and won't tolerate any manipulative nonsense and that I am going to bring my brother back to reality   so that he has the vision to see what is really going on. After that will be interesting.

Additionally, 8 months after I first raised this with my parents, they still do not fully know what situation they are dealing with because they have not wanted to confront the issue head-on. They have wanted to bury their heads in the sand which caused numerous arguments between us. My parents have actually been the most disruptive because of their lack of communication over these issues. They are talking to me now but I feel like I have spent all my energy trying to persuade them that this needs urgent attention and it is not something that can be ignored. This has been the most frustrating and exhausting aspect of the whole experience for me, and totally unnecessary.

[Amstine]

AH, wow, the parents of SIL being enablers must make this extremely difficult.  Tread carefully.  We were really lucky to have my other SIL believe us that it appeared to be a personality disorder.  She experienced atrocious treatment from my BPDSIL too though, and so my other BIL and SIL are on board, reading books and going no contact right now.  My PIL are slowly slowly coming around but consider giving in to them still to be the "easiest" way. When there is cancer and grandchildren involved it is extremely hard for them.  I am just focussing on having less FOG and allowing my cortisol levels time to slow down. And praying for the people around them recognise the behaviours and withdraw and draw boundaries, we live so far away it gives me time to recover.

Your brother is in deep but I pray he can see the value in separating   It's so hard to watch.

[Pilpel]

Amstine,

Just wanted to say   I also have a BPD/NPD SIL.  Married to my brother.  It's been about 2 months since I went NC.  And this was after over 10 years of constant stress dealing with her.  I also regularly got similar guilt trips from her as you have from your SIL and BIL.  This would be a regular pattern:

1.  She would send a group email to various family members, either passive aggressively or outright asking someone to do something for her. 

2.  Everyone else would respond "no" and she would ignore their "no."  Then when I responded to say "no" she would respond with "poor me.  I have it so hard, and this family fails at making me feel loved.  And by the way, you didn't do enough for me when I had this problem recently."  And the tacit message in these emails is "I devalue you because you are not serving me the way I want you to.  But in letting you know that I devalue you, I am giving you another chance to say "yes" to me so you can improve your ranking with me.

I also started off in this relationship with feeling like something wasn't right about her.  But she has a way of treating people like they're the only person she has a problem with, which I see now as a form of triangulation.   For the first several years, I had a lot of self-doubt.  Maybe I did have a problem, like she said. 

In the past year, though, I've had to really examine my own values.  I am a Christians, as is my SIL.  And my SIL's concept of "do unto others" has to do with how people are supposed to respond to her.  But if I honestly look at the idea of "do unto others as you would have them do to you" the reality is that if I treated someone the way she treated me, I wouldn't expect a person that I treated in a devaluing and manipulative way to ever want to talk to me again.  Even with my husband or kids, I don't believe they are obligated to remain in a relationship with me if I devalue them or constantly fill their lives with drama and embarrassment.

Anyhow, it's only been a couple of months for me.  But I also struggle with getting triggered.  I ran into her about a week after going NC, and initially I felt a wave of anxiety.  I felt like I was going to pass out.  But we kept our distance, and everything was fine afterward.  I think it'll get easier as time goes on. For the most part, I feel more relaxed than I have for awhile.  So far, she is respecting my NC.  And she has responded by going NC with me ... which was actually kind of a relief for some reason. 

[Jareth89]

Pilpel, in the case of my brother, who do you think he would be more comfortable opening up to - a male therapist or female therapist? I don't know who men would prefer to confide in about sensitive issues like this...men or women or does it not matter? I'm trying to line up a therapist for him in advance but I will be giving the therapist the background before he sees that person...if and when that happens.

In the past year, though, I've had to really examine my own values.  I am a Christians, as is my SIL.  And my SIL's concept of "do unto others" has to do with how people are supposed to respond to her.  But if I honestly look at the idea of "do unto others as you would have them do to you" the reality is that if I treated someone the way she treated me, I wouldn't expect a person that I treated in a devaluing and manipulative way to ever want to talk to me again.  Even with my husband or kids, I don't believe they are obligated to remain in a relationship with me if I devalue them or constantly fill their lives with drama and embarrassment.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Amstine]

"In the past year, though, I've had to really examine my own values.  I am a Christians, as is my SIL.  And my SIL's concept of "do unto others" has to do with how people are supposed to respond to her.  But if I honestly look at the idea of "do unto others as you would have them do to you" the reality is that if I treated someone the way she treated me, I wouldn't expect a person that I treated in a devaluing and manipulative way to ever want to talk to me again.  Even with my husband or kids, I don't believe they are obligated to remain in a relationship with me if I devalue them or constantly fill their lives with drama and embarrassment." ( quoting above, sorry I couldn't crack it!) What a great point!

This has been the hardest part for me, I am a christian too.  The behaviour a decade a go made me incredibly ashamed and as a Christian I felt I needed to take the fall for the whole situation as I was in FOG and a people pleaser.  I have thought deeply about this all and am planning to teach at a christian conference on mental health - I have had a lot of convos with christians ( I am a pastor's wife).  Ironically it was encountering incredibly toxic narcs in my congregation who wanted to punish me for things I shouldn't take responsibility for that made me realise I was being played by my SIL and BIL as well.,
The elders at my church have learned hard lessons in how to draw strong boundaries against people that want to use, hurt and manipulate others to create a safe space.
I agree with your take of 'do unto others'  - when really, they are deciding that they are either too special, too broken or too needy to do the same to you. Jesus is the scapegoat, he took the fall and the punishment and he doesn't do that any more, it's done, so we don't do it anymore either.  The christian life is about grace.  
You don't have to be the scapegoat to their rage and blame.  You speak the truth in love.

We have had to have a long hard think about 1 Peter 5 -  if someone wants to control and dominate, then it is our job to rebuke those "sheep" as they are stopping the weaker sheep from getting cared for.  
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. ( 1 Peter 5)

In the case of 'do unto others' the bible also warns us not to 'become tempted' and the toll that their long term unkindness has on you is damaging and can 'tempt' us into being people pleasers, martyrs or spending our valuable energy on people who need a different kind of help than just kindness.  They need loving boundaries and clear speech of what is right and holy.

"7 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,� (2 Peter 2)

They are SAYING words that sound good, but their actions are not.  So stand firm, knowing that their lies will catch up with them and don't let them control you.

This is me practising what I might say for this workshop - let me know if its encouraging or if there are any gaps that don't speak to your faith?  I would really appreciate any feedback.  I am still trying to make myself believe it too!

[Jareth89]

Your brother is in deep but I pray he can see the value in separating   It's so hard to watch.

He has a 3 yr old son - this is the biggest problem, because he will not want to sacrifice everything that he has built up over the past 5 years. So it's one thing to come out of denial and into reality about his situation (which will improve his relationship with me because he will no longer be susceptible to the brainwashing), but if his wife doesn't respond to boundaries or she gets her parents (who enable her) to pressure him, then realistically he should face divorce with the stumbling block being what can hurt him the most - his precious son. I am absolutely disgusted that these pwBPD/NPD seem to be able to hold off their unacceptable behaviours until a marriage or children has been secured. It can't be a coincidence that her parents were triggered into 'coming out' at the same time. I'd love to know whether this is a deliberate deception undertaken by the pwbpd/npd and what factors influence the timing of their 'maturation' into fully-fledged bpd/npd.

[Pilpel]

Pilpel, in the case of my brother, who do you think he would be more comfortable opening up to - a male therapist or female therapist? I don't know who men would prefer to confide in about sensitive issues like this...men or women or does it not matter? I'm trying to line up a therapist for him in advance but I will be giving the therapist the background before he sees that person...if and when that happens.

Jareth, I really can’t say if a male or female therapist is better.  It probably helps that the therapist  understands personality disorders.  I don’t have a lot of experience with therapists myself.

Amstine, I have a few thoughts to share regarding lessons I’ve learned over these years dealing with a narcissist.  And how my thought have evolved.   I’ll write more when I’m at my computer tomorrow! 

[Pilpel]

Amstine, 

My husband and I really struggled for a long time.  In my heart, I wanted to go NC years ago.  But I was concerned that that was the unkind thing to do.  And I wanted to be kind.  It's interesting how my mindset has changed in the past couple years.  And part of that change came from having talks with her. And part of that change came from seeing parallels in our kids' interactions, and I really didn't want my children to just "turn the other cheek" when their cousins mistreated them.  I wanted my kids to respect their own boundaries and not feel forced to interact with people who don't treat them with respect.  And yet, I wanted them to be self-respecting and protect their personal boundaries in a way that I was not practicing with my SIL.  My son did not want to play with his cousin for almost half a year after his cousin played rough with him (and lied about how he hurt him).  I told my son, "Your cousin acted the way he did because that's how his parents allow him to act.  But you have every right not to play with him if you don't want to.  And forgive him when you feel ready to."  And I saw that as not just a lesson for my son that he has a right to withdraw from someone who is unkind, but an even more important lesson for his cousin who needs to know that his friends have a right to not play if he isn't nice and doesn't respect personal boundaries. But this is not something my SIL was learning.  I was rewarding my SIL's bad behavior by remaining in contact, by giving her validation when she wanted it, by continuing to interact in a "relationship" that eventually felt like a losing game that left me stressed and anxious. 

While the Bible does say to stay away from angry contentious people, I frequently thought that there really weren't a lot of verses that dealt with difficult people.  I was listening to a Jordan Peterson podcast awhile back and he mentioned the story of Jacob and Esau, and he brought up a point in that story that I had never noticed before.  Jacob was destined to have the first born blessing.  But if you read between the lines, it seems his mother's motivation for making Jacob manipulate his father for his blessing had a lot to do with Esau's Hittite wives.  Genesis 26: 35 - "They turned out to be thorns in the sides of Isaac and Rebekah."  Genesis 27:46 - "Rebecca spoke to Isaac, "I am sick to death of these Hittite women.  If Jacob also marries a native Hittite woman, why live?"  There is a lot that can be read between the lines here.  But having experience my SIL, I have some understanding of the extent that a person can make your life difficult.  And I can fully understand a situation where Rebecca would not want those difficult DILs to gain status in the family through Esau getting the blessing. 

Anyhow, another thought that I have frequently had over the years regarding dealing with the narcissist is kind of connected to the lessons I learned with the kids.  God is loving and forgiving.  Yet that doesn't protect us from reaping what we sow.  God loved King David, but that didn't prevent him from suffering severe consequences after he had Bathsheba's husband sent to die.  The consequences didn't go away because he repented.  (His baby died, his son rebelled, his wife had an affair with his friend and everyone knew).  If I look honestly at my life, I can see many times when I have reaped hard painful consequences for what I have sown. And I've deserved what I reaped.  I always see the narcissist as someone who not only doesn't own the consequences for what she sows, but is always twisting the truth around to suit her --which is basically another way of saying she lies. God wants us to live in reality and in truth.  It is good to speak the truth in love, but when that results in hostility and accusations what good can come out of staying in that?  We are all flawed. Which is another point in why I stayed in the relationship as long as I did.  I think on some level, the narcissist embodies the worst of what it means to live by the flesh.  But I try to be honest about my own flaws, my own tendencies to be selfish and fixated on myself and what I think I lack.  So I sometimes see myself in the narcissist.   "That was a horrible way for the narcissist to act.  But when have I ever acted like that?" 

In a way, I remind myself to be thankful for the narcissist.  I don't think God wants us to be people pleasers and push-overs. I believe He wants us to be able to discern between truth and a lie and stand up for the truth and justice.  And these were things that the narcissist challenged me on.
 We're always told not to judge others.  But then in I Corinthians 6 "Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"
 
Anyhow, those are my rambling thoughts.  Like I mentioned before, going NC is still relatively new to me.  And I also feel easily triggered by the idea of having to see or interact with SIL.  I'm assuming you went NC recently, too.  I'd be curious to hear back from you about how NC goes for you.  Or even how your workshop goes, or if you have any other insights for your workshop. 

[TelHill]

"
This has been the hardest part for me, I am a christian too.  The behaviour a decade a go made me incredibly ashamed and as a Christian I felt I needed to take the fall for the whole situation as I was in FOG and a people pleaser.  I have thought deeply about this all and am planning to teach at a christian conference on mental health - I have had a lot of convos with christians ( I am a pastor's wife).  Ironically it was encountering incredibly toxic narcs in my congregation who wanted to punish me for things I shouldn't take responsibility for that made me realise I was being played by my SIL and BIL as well.,
The elders at my church have learned hard lessons in how to draw strong boundaries against people that want to use, hurt and manipulate others to create a safe space.
I agree with your take of 'do unto others'  - when really, they are deciding that they are either too special, too broken or too needy to do the same to you. Jesus is the scapegoat, he took the fall and the punishment and he doesn't do that any more, it's done, so we don't do it anymore either.  The christian life is about grace.  
You don't have to be the scapegoat to their rage and blame.  You speak the truth in love.

We have had to have a long hard think about 1 Peter 5 -  if someone wants to control and dominate, then it is our job to rebuke those "sheep" as they are stopping the weaker sheep from getting cared for.  
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. ( 1 Peter 5)

In the case of 'do unto others' the bible also warns us not to 'become tempted' and the toll that their long term unkindness has on you is damaging and can 'tempt' us into being people pleasers, martyrs or spending our valuable energy on people who need a different kind of help than just kindness.  They need loving boundaries and clear speech of what is right and holy.

"7 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,� (2 Peter 2)

They are SAYING words that sound good, but their actions are not.  So stand firm, knowing that their lies will catch up with them and don't let them control you.

This is me practising what I might say for this workshop - let me know if its encouraging or if there are any gaps that don't speak to your faith?  I would really appreciate any feedback.  I am still trying to make myself believe it too!

I’m a practicing Catholic. There’s a saying I heard about that. I’m practicing because I still have a long way to go!

I went to church weekly and did the rosary daily, my meditation. Life recovering from a bpd mom was fine until I had a few shocking upheavals.

I am relying on my religious practices a lot to help. There are many seeming contradictions in the Bible. If a town didn’t accept Jesus in old Galilee, he shook the dust off his feet in protest and left.  But, what about turning the other cheek when someone spits in your face? If someone steals your clock, give them your shoes? Jesus feels put upon by an angry crowd, so he slips away quietly. He wasn’t quiet when the Pharisees were going to stone that sinning woman. What do I do here? The more I read, the more confused I was.  Am I a steamroller or a doormat?

The friends I made on my own 1.5 years ago were in a parish I no longer attend.  One woman began to question my motives in a club I had joined. Was I telling the truth about my job, education, etc. She was not nice. I stood up for myself with her only. A lot of women in the club started looking at me coldly. Some brushed me off when they spoke to me before. I believe I was slandered.  I chose to stop going to this church. I went back 6 months ago thinking who cares and remembers? She was there and gave me a cold angry stare.   Never will return.

I think they were long standing club members and friends. People have life difficulties & take things out on someone new. Someone vulnerable...which I was after my husband’s death.

It may be I have to take things as they come on a daily basis. There’s no set formula of what to do.  I have to assess if I have to slip away quietly never to return, stand up to Pharisees, or turn the other cheek and take it. Then, I should pray for those who hurt me. Why? They’re creeps who screwed me over. I have to stay away & it hurts thinking about them. I will never trust them.

It’s a challenge. I have to think about difficult things and do difficult things.

[Pilpel]

TelHill,

That's heartbreaking to feel left out by your religious community!  I have a friend who is also Catholic, and she has had to deal with a lot of judgment and false accusations from other women in her church, as well.  It has caused her a lot of stress but she still goes and puts herself out there.  But I don't know that I would do the same. 

I believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all, so I'm used to being an outsider in mainstream churches.  When I was a teenager, my family was part of a small church that I felt really connected to.  But then we nearly got kicked out because of my family's beliefs, and my best friend's dad was one of the people that wanted us kicked out.  It was one of a few points that ended up causing a division.  I would love to find a church community, but I've never felt connected to a church community since that experience. 

[Amstine]

I’m a practicing Catholic. There’s a saying I heard about that. I’m practicing because I still have a long way to go!

I went to church weekly and did the rosary daily, my meditation. Life recovering from a bpd mom was fine until I had a few shocking upheavals.

I am relying on my religious practices a lot to help. There are many seeming contradictions in the Bible. If a town didn’t accept Jesus in old Galilee, he shook the dust off his feet in protest and left.  But, what about turning the other cheek when someone spits in your face? If someone steals your clock, give them your shoes? Jesus feels put upon by an angry crowd, so he slips away quietly. He wasn’t quiet when the Pharisees were going to stone that sinning woman. What do I do here? The more I read, the more confused I was.  Am I a steamroller or a doormat?

The friends I made on my own 1.5 years ago were in a parish I no longer attend.  One woman began to question my motives in a club I had joined. Was I telling the truth about my job, education, etc. She was not nice. I stood up for myself with her only. A lot of women in the club started looking at me coldly. Some brushed me off when they spoke to me before. I believe I was slandered.  I chose to stop going to this church. I went back 6 months ago thinking who cares and remembers? She was there and gave me a cold angry stare.   Never will return.

I think they were long standing club members and friends. People have life difficulties & take things out on someone new. Someone vulnerable...which I was after my husband’s death.

It may be I have to take things as they come on a daily basis. There’s no set formula of what to do.  I have to assess if I have to slip away quietly never to return, stand up to Pharisees, or turn the other cheek and take it. Then, I should pray for those who hurt me. Why? They’re creeps who screwed me over. I have to stay away & it hurts thinking about them. I will never trust them.

It’s a challenge. I have to think about difficult things and do difficult things.

I'm so sorry you had that experience in your church   A smear campaign is very hard to take without people believing it - even worse when they do.  I love your quote about the 'practising'! I hope and pray you find a christian community that accepts and loves you like God the Father has accepted you, sacrifices for you like God the Son and will be a guide and companion like the Holy Spirit is.  I left the state where the smear campaign has been and now some of those who believed the smear about me, now that have been shunned as well.  God sees the truth, but its is very lonely and isolating.
I believe those people are deceived and don't question the word of someone they trust. They may feel threatened by you and want to compete with you.  Who knows?  But if they are your true friends, they will not believe those lies.   

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Unfortunately the kind of people in churches can either be the manipulators looking for the gullible or the gullible easily led.