Working through Low Contact Boundaries with uBPD mom

[skylark23]

I'm currently in low-contact with my uBPD mom. She's been really pushing me to feel guilty that "she doesn't know her grandchildren" and that "I had time to call my mom even with ten kids so why don't you call me." Sure I feel guilty as all get out but I'm processing it and letting it go. What I'd like to know is if I need to fine-tune anything here.

When I went low contact I didn't tell her outright. It really isn't helpful in any way (usually) to state boundaries of any kind with her, but rather to just do them. My boundaries are that I do not talk on the phone with her, and I do not initiate any conversations between her and the kids unless they ask to. They are preschool/toddler and have never asked.  Anyway, I text her, or talk to her on Facebook through a siblings/mom group message. I also have a family Instagram account where I post pictures/videos and updates of the kids (if not on the group message.) I've told her many times that she if she wants to video chat with the kids, please let me know and I'll make sure we are available to do that. She never wants to. She rarely initiates anything with us or the kids. One has multiple severe food allergies. She never asks about it, only makes comments like "I don't understand how that could happen because no one in our family has them" when I update her on them. She does not ask about the other child either. She does send birthday presents, nice, thoughtful ones that seem to indicate she cares, but does not remember when their birthdays actually are or make any attempt to (like putting them into her phone.) She gets very upset if I don't remind her because "you know I don't feel well and I'm forgetful." (she has some chronic health problems, none of which affect memory but it is likely that she also has ADD.) I do not remind her and have told her that it is her job to remember. In short, she does not call unless she is very angry with me, she very rarely texts, and she occasionally answers messages in the group message.

Our newest boundary is that we are not going to go visit. We live 15 hours away and have not visited in several years for other reasons, but with her uBPD seeming to grow worse, it seems best not to. My SIL has told me some of the nasty things my mom has said to/in front of my SIL's kids repeatedly, and that she is very uninvolved with any of them except for my SIL's daughter. (My mom expresses an obvious preference for girls.) My mom also allows her two youngest daughters (half-sisters of mine) to physically bully and make fun of my SIL's children and has even told my brother that he was lying when he confronted her on it.

What I'd like to know is if at some point we need to come out and state our current boundaries, and why, and how to do that. I'm not sure that it would be helpful but over the past year she has been acting so hurt and confused as to why I do not call for holidays or any other time when "that is all she wants," as well as going on about how she will surely die soon and just wants to see us/her grandkids before she dies, and how much she is upset that I "keep them away" and that she has no relationship with or emotional attachment to them. (As I understand it, she longs for connection but is unwilling to do the work herself for fear of rejection/possible pain.)

I've been working on staying out of the drama triangle, not using JADE but SET, or ignoring the super emotional messages but not sure what to do next.

[Turkish]

Can she not get her own plane ticket? Greyhound Bus?

My SIL has told me some of the nasty things my mom has said to/in front of my SIL's kids repeatedly, and that she is very uninvolved with any of them except for my SIL's daughter. (My mom expresses an obvious preference for girls.) My mom also allows her two youngest daughters (half-sisters of mine) to physically bully and make fun of my SIL's children and has even told my brother that he was lying when he confronted her on it.

This is completely unacceptable.  You feel that she (and her daughters) might have this dynamic with your kids as well, yes? Protect your primary family, your children.  It might be better just to let things lie as they are and deal with the fallout from LC from afar.

Anyone else have better ideas on how to improve this from a communication standpoint?

[skylark23]

Turkish,

She is quite capable of flying or traveling. She has done so multiple times for Disney World or for other reasons. If asked she will simply say she will not interfere or go where she is not wanted (with the hope that we will then tell her she is very wanted and beg her to come.) Or she will blame her health. In short she will not come or ask to come unless we explicitly invite her and we are not going to do that any longer. Have not in several years. We've been through this many times and if that is the choice she wants to make, that is up to her. It is more peaceful/healthy for us to not have her visit anyway. The last visit (several years ago, at our invite) was very stressful.

Yes, we believe that the dynamic with my younger sisters/her will affect my children as well and will not be subjecting them to it at all. Those girls are only 10 and 8 and very messed up already. There is much other dysfunction in the house not mentioned for brevity's sake, and in short, it is not healthy and we will not be involved in it. In fact, my brother/SIL are actively looking to move (very) far away as they are fed up with it, as they should be.

Just really stuck as to whether we ignore it all and keep moving on or if we ought to address anything outright. Since we do keep it LC it is not affecting kids (other than they don't know really who she is) and the way I allow it to affect my moods. It does affect me from time to time when she employs FOG really hard especially after she has been more nice/neutral but I am recognizing her cycles/patterns and that is really helping me to step back and make it impersonal after a day or two. Husband is fed up with how she affects me even briefly and is ready to burn the bridge but is respectful of my desire to leave it at LC for now.

Edit to clarify: my brother and SIL and kids were living with her for a time but have since moved out, less than an hour away. They are ready to be very far away.

[TelHill]

Hi,

I stated boundaries. She would repeat them back at me with taunts.  Fewer problems with action only.

What calms mine down some is to treat them like a small child I don't know well -- don't you look nice today; it's so nice to see you; waving at her from a distance;  that top is pretty; that's a smart thing to do. Oh no, sorry you feel like that!  Then I ignore, change the subject or leave. I don't ever expect anything mom-like or a mature response. Am grateful when it happens sporadically on its own.

I'm glad your brother is protecting his little ones.  That bullying is what my mom did. No one close to me believed me or did nothing if they did.

[IvyB]

I agree. I have a uBPD mom and have been doing therapy for a year. I don't state boundaries, just act on them and stay firm. I think it's pointless to verbalize since will turn into a "you don't care, you don't love me, I'm going to go kill myself now..." conversation. (I haven't tried, that's my guess how it would go.) If I act on my boundary (i.e. 3 weekly phone calls, down from every day), she grumbles and accepts. Also, I try to ease into it.
I agree with tellhi about treating like a small child, flattery and small talk is what gets me through our conversations and visits. If there's a shiny object, her mind diverts quickly.
There are still days when I wonder why I bother staying in touch, it seems I'm getting more hurt then anything positive out of relationship. Other days it all seems under control.
Hang in there!

[GaGrl]

My family's experience was just to maintain very controlled LC. My mother's stepmother (who parented my mom from age 6) was uBPD/BPD and made my mom's life miserable. I am forever grateful that he moved us 200 miles away, so we didn't have to deal with us more than 2-3 times a year. Your children don't need that.

[podsnapG]

This discussion is so helpful. I like the idea of not stating boundaries but just acting on them and staying firm. LC is tricky. Flattery, light chit chat, feigning a kind of oblivious attitude has also worked for me. But I have been in public places where BPD SIL is on her best behavior. My brother is, too, but it’s almost as if he is carrying her rage. Angry words or gestures slip out of him and I just try to ignore them.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Protecting the children is most important. Thank goodness you are far away.

[Turkish]

Flattery, light chit chat, feigning a kind of oblivious attitude has also worked for me.

This is how I kind of deal with my uBPD ex. A year ago she engaged me in a deep conversation, 5 years after she left and had remarried.  We were on a long drive back from a wedding. A week or so later, I received a late night email with she telling me how I hurt her by what I said. I didn't say what she told me I said. I mentioned our past, not her current marriage. She conflated the two. It wasn't worth correcting so I never answered... which was likely validation that I did hurt her by something I never said, but I didn't care. 

[skylark23]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I am using the light, chit-chatty/flattery every time I interact with her on any messages, which currently has her just ignoring me most of the time. She is possibly seeing it as disingenuous although I am keeping it strictly genuine and neutral.

Dramatic chatter (on her end) peaked and has dropped away again, as a birthday happened recently and that is one trigger for her uptick in rage/flying monkeys/manipulation/guilt trips, etc., etc.

So it seems like really not much else to do other than keep on keeping on...until/if we decide that No Contact is right and best for us.

[tryingforzen]

So many relatable stories & helpful suggestions here!  I too live far away.  I have been NC for a few months, thinking about LC.  But not even sure how to transition at this point.  Prior to NC I was limiting phone calls, not calling every week like she was used to.  My mother never initiated contact either unless it was to share bad, tragic news (she lives for drama). During LC contact phase, I had resorted to light chit chat just bc I realized that worked to keep things relatively calm and not spike a mood swing.  But after time, it felt so fake and pointless.  There was no substance at all to the calls- just, how's the weather, gossip and talking about tv shows.  She never asked about the kids but she claims to be this wonderful, doting grandmother who loves them so much.  And I get boatloads of guilt for living far away and her not having a relationship with them and how I have ruined her life as she pictured it.  She is insanely jealous of her sister who has her grandchildren close by. 

This summer after deciding we were not going to visit as we usually do, #$&* hit the fan.  And that's when the NC started.  Like your mom, mine will no longer come visit bc she says she feels unwelcome and claims she can't fly anymore due to fears (yet she complains incessantly about how my dad won't travel and this is ruining their retirement).  I truly don't want her to visit again bc the last time they came was super stressful, no fun and ended in them packing up and leaving early.  I moved away over 20 years ago, but she still talks about it like this is a new development.  And she has always told me since I'm the one who moved, it is MY responsibility to come visit them.  She doesn't think they should be burdened by the expense of my decision. 

 I think you said you're mom has gotten worse and that has been my experience.  Since my mom retired her behavior has dramatically gotten worse- I'm not sure if it's bc she has nothing else to focus on now? 

Like your husband, mine is fed up with her and can't understand why I keep going back for more, but is supportive of what I decide.  My kids are older now (elementary and middle school aged)-  but still never ask to talk to my parents and virtually have no relationship with them other than getting cards with money for holidays.  I used to make them talk on the phone every once in awhile and they HATED it.

During the times I question what I am doing and if this is the right decision, it helps me to think of it in terms of my kids and keeping things as drama free and healthy for them as possible. 

[zachira]

The biggest sorrow in dealing with a person with BPD is we usually can't tell them how we feel because they have no empathy or capacity to understand our point of view. I would continue to set good boundaries. No need to explain. Actions speak louder than words.

[ProudDad12]

The biggest sorrow in dealing with a person with BPD is we usually can't tell them how we feel because they have no empathy or capacity to understand our point of view. I would continue to set good boundaries. No need to explain. Actions speak louder than words.

I agree with this, and it's one of the most heartbreaking parts. I firmly believe my uBPD mom means well, and yet I've given up on the idea of being able to communicate our feelings. Less out of lack of empathy on her part and more out of not being able to understand, because it seems like any connection between action and hurt can only be understood in the context of herself. Everything about our conflicts is framed around how she is hurt, how she doesn't understand why things are happening, how she is a good person, etc. The feelings of my wife and I only seem to come into play when she tries to say what she needs to get us (read: our children) back into her life. Sometimes I think I've been able to communicate the FACT that I'm hurting (when I'm sufficiently visibly emotional), but I still think she doesn't understand why and thinks there is something wrong with me (she'd rather believe I was sexually abused as a child (which I wasn't) than come to terms with the concept SHE hurts us).

Don't mean to hijack this by talking about my mom, just not sure how to explain it without speaking in the context of my experience. I've learned to give up on the idea of making her understand.

I think stating the boundary depends on the boundary itself. For instance, before NC, our idea of a "quota" for going to see them was much different than theirs. We just did what we did, and didn't feel the need to say that. But in our current situation, I've felt the need to explicitly state that they can't talk to/about my wife the way they have and expect us to be in their lives. To me it was important to communicate what they did wrong, regardless of whether they believe or understand me.

skylark23, my rambling about boundaries aside, don't let your mom guilt you. I know how it feels, because my mom does the same. I don't/didn't call my mom or FaceTime with the kids as much as I should, but I finally realized that instead of complaining or guilting, my mom instead could have asked to FaceTime or called herself. She once said she didn't because she felt like she was bothering me. And yet, almost every conversation I had with her left me feeling dirty and like a terrible person afterwards (which is why I never wanted to take the initiative). All that to say I realized that in her world, the "excuses" only apply to her and not me. Which in turn made me accept it was a 2 way street, not the 1 way obligation she tried to impose on me.

Not sure if that helped... just trying to say I can empathize with your situation. It is hard, so hard, but do your best to not let her guilt you... its one of our moms' biggest tools because it works!

[skylark23]

The biggest sorrow in dealing with a person with BPD is we usually can't tell them how we feel because they have no empathy or capacity to understand our point of view. I would continue to set good boundaries. No need to explain. Actions speak louder than words.

Zachira, this is so true. I feel stuck on that point as I want to feel understood/heard...but I've realized it recently, that it will not happen.

[skylark23]

Tryingforzen, it is amazing how much your mom sounds like mine, right down to her reasons for contacting (drama), all of the guilt about living far away/ruining her dreams, jealousy of others who have a relationship with my kids. It is encouraging and helpful to know that this is not just me!

I do think it is possible that retirement could have something to do with the increase in drama - perhaps her workplace provided some drama and now she is missing it and feels the need to fill the gap, so to speak. My mom's increase has been fueled in part by the increase of her daughters leaving home and moving far away, and then reducing contact. I believe she is feeling a very real loss of control and is lashing out in attempts to gain back a feeling of control over her life. Helpful to consider that it is not a normal response and again I am not responsible for it while I can and do remain empathetic over what she is feeling.

Every time I have some length of contact with her it just ends badly anymore, and I am very aware of how much it affects my mental health negatively, then my family, and how unhealthy it is for all of us for me to be in any contact with her. I imagine it is the same for you...here's a hug and encouragement to keep on doing what is best and safest and healthiest for YOU and your family.

[skylark23]

skylark23, my rambling about boundaries aside, don't let your mom guilt you. I know how it feels, because my mom does the same. I don't/didn't call my mom or FaceTime with the kids as much as I should, but I finally realized that instead of complaining or guilting, my mom instead could have asked to FaceTime or called herself. She once said she didn't because she felt like she was bothering me. And yet, almost every conversation I had with her left me feeling dirty and like a terrible person afterwards (which is why I never wanted to take the initiative). All that to say I realized that in her world, the "excuses" only apply to her and not me. Which in turn made me accept it was a 2 way street, not the 1 way obligation she tried to impose on me.

Not sure if that helped... just trying to say I can empathize with your situation. It is hard, so hard, but do your best to not let her guilt you... its one of our moms' biggest tools because it works!

ProudDad12, Thank you! Your entire post was helpful and encouraging today. I do think that I have a couple of areas where I will need to firmly let her know that I am not okay with the way that she is talking about my kids. I am also not okay with the way she is talking about my husband at the moment, but as I've only heard it from a third party, I won't be addressing it yet. I'm working hard at not taking responsibility for her behavior, or what she says.

I can absolutely understand about feeling like a dirty person after conversation - it happens often even with just the texts or messages. It helps to think of it the way you are doing - it is a two-way street and she is making her choices as well and I'm going to respect them even if I'm not happy about them, and not feel guilty for them or my own boundaries. At least, work on not feeling guilty, ha! I hope that makes sense.