What is the first step? -- full custody

[Breakingfree9]

Much like the other post -- Thinking of Asking for Custody Evaluation -- I'm curious what the board thinks is the first step.
A quick summary of my situation. uBPDxw and I divorced in 2008. We've had joint custody of our now D15 during that time. As with all BPDs there have been volatile times and times of calm.

Now that D15 is an adult-ish, she can see and recognizes her mother's projections and chaotic behavior. D15 doesn't like being with her mother and uBPDxw is responding with being even more controlling, mentally abusive, shaming and name-calling than usual.

My daughter needs help. I don't know what the first step is. I've tried to tell uBPDxw that D15 needs counseling, but uBPDxw refuses to agree to it, therefore therapists won't see D15.

Help.

[daughtersdad]

Our situations are eerily similar. . . except my x thought the counselor would side with her, so daughters have been in counseling.  D15 needs to be in counseling.  If T won't treat without mom's consent, you are probably going to need to go back to court and get a GAL appointed.  Do you have an alternative dispute resolution part of your order, invoking that may put you in mediation that would be short of court, cheaper, and get your the preferred result while you evaluate a change in custody.  I think you should start with that simple request and when mom fights, you can then ask for a custody evaluation or otherwise size up the GAL's sympathy for the situation.

At the very least, doing something shows D15 that you are in her corner fighting for her.  That has had real value for me.

[ForeverDad]

My lawyer told me, Courts love counseling.  If your ex refuses, then take it to court.  It's hard to imagine a court would agree to let one parent block professional counseling.

But do so in smart ways.  When faced with a judge's decision to allow counseling, the ex will probably try to control the counseling sessions, probably too which counselor is chosen.  Ex would want a gullible, pliable counselor, so reduce that risk with a strategy like this.

News Flash:  Most courts love counseling.  If one parent asks the court to approve it, it's likely to be granted.  The crucial thing is to ensure the problem parent doesn't go shopping for a compliant, gullible counselor.  One way to handle that issue, one the courts approve, is for the reasonably normal parent to be proactive, research and build a short list of reputable, capable, experienced counselors and then (what the court sees as having both parents involved) have the problem parent select from among those most excellent professionals.

Another factor is whether the counselors accept your insurance coverage.

Also helpful is to share some of the insights outlined in the topics here for validation, communication and other skills.

[Breakingfree9]

What is a GAL?

[Breakingfree9]

My lawyer told me, Courts love counseling.  If your ex refuses, then take it to court.  It's hard to imagine a court would agree to let one parent block professional counseling.

But do so in smart ways.  When faced with a judge's decision to allow counseling, the ex will probably try to control the counseling sessions, probably too which counselor is chosen.  Ex would want a gullible, pliable counselor, so reduce that risk with a strategy like this.

Another factor is whether the counselors accept your insurance coverage.

Also helpful is to share some of the insights outlined in the topics here for validation, communication and other skills.

"Insurance" is one of the ways she's blocking counseling. She says that she doesn't want D15 to go to counseling because the therapist would have to put in a diagnosis in order for insurance to pay and she doesn't want that on D15's medical records.
Predictable behavior with uBPDxw -- always an excuse of no-win situation.

[ForeverDad]

My son was in counseling from age 3 to age 11.  My ex was trying to make it seem she was protecting him from me, meanwhile every few years I got more and more parenting authority.  In your case, hers is an empty Blame-Shift so EX doesn't get herself revealed.

To my knowledge he was never "diagnosed".  (Probably they avoid that for children unless they kill small animals or similar serious issues.)  However, I do recall that when I got full custody they did try to wrap up sessions.  Clearly they saw the parental conflict as the core issue, not the child.  But they couldn't until her sense of entitlement/control was deflated a few years later when I also got majority time.

You will find that most of us found experienced counseling was a godsend.  Just make sure a gullible counselor isn't selected.  Most of our ex's are master manipulators and controllers.

[Breakingfree9]

Sure, but over time we recognize their attempts at manipulation.

Tonight is a fairly good example. uBPDxw took D15's phone away. The normal stuff I hear from uBPDxw "she's disrespectful, blah, blah, blah". Tonight is D15's night at her mom's. Her mom went out. With her phone taken away, her mom said,  "you can have your phone back for emergencies while I'm gone, but you can't call daddy if you're bored or scared".

Now that their relationship has become more volatile, there is more of a manipulative effort to isolate D15 on the days I don't have custody.

D15 says she's sad all the time when she's at her mom's.

[Panda39]

What is a GAL?

A guardian ad litem (GAL) is an objective, impartial person whom the court appoints to act as a representative for the minor children in a contested custody proceeding. In cases of alleged child abuse or neglect, the court will as a matter, of course, appoint a guardian ad litem.

[mart555]

Why do you need mom's approval for your daughter to see a therapist?  Can't the therapist simply see her?  As far as I know parental consent should not even be required.  Here I brought my two kids to see a therapist and mom has not been involved.  She'll get the paperwork to submit to insurance but that's it.  All we need is a doctor's note to be able to submit to insurance. 

Maybe look into different types of therapists?  Psychologists may need a full diagnostic for insurance to pay.  But maybe not family counseling?  Do you have insurance? Maybe go as "family" you and your daughter ?  I've done this many times.

Make sure that your daughter knows that you are supporting her. She's going through difficult times.

[Breakingfree9]

Why do you need mom's approval for your daughter to see a therapist?  Can't the therapist simply see her?  As far as I know parental consent should not even be required.  Here I brought my two kids to see a therapist and mom has not been involved.  She'll get the paperwork to submit to insurance but that's it.  All we need is a doctor's note to be able to submit to insurance. 

Maybe look into different types of therapists?  Psychologists may need a full diagnostic for insurance to pay.  But maybe not family counseling?  Do you have insurance? Maybe go as "family" you and your daughter ?  I've done this many times.

Make sure that your daughter knows that you are supporting her. She's going through difficult times.

No. The therapist wants both parents approval. I've spoken to another therapist and she said the same thing.

When only one parent approves, the therapist started on treatment and it abruptly ended when the other parent wouldn't allow future visits. I did speak to my EAP provider and think I made some headway. They can recommend someone who will see D15 under my behavioral health benefit as family counseling between D15 and me. I'll just leave the room.

[worriedStepmom]

Can you afford to pay out-of-pocket for counseling?  My Sd12's mom tried to block counseling by not giving us a copy of SD's insurance card, and we were able to just pay cash (some therapists offered a discount for cash).

Some parents have had success phrasing counseling as something to help the child fix  bad behaviors (i.e., whatever mom is complaining about lately), or by letting the other parent choose the therapist.  [This doesn't always work longterm - SD's mom kept trying to fire the therapist after he figured out she was the problem.  My H had it written into the last custody modification that he had sole rights to make decisions for SD's mental health.]

Do you think mom's behavior, and D15's reactions, have risen to the level where you might need to file for more custody?

[mart555]

They can recommend someone who will see D15 under my behavioral health benefit as family counseling between D15 and me. I'll just leave the room.

Spend a few minutes in there with her.  Maybe even half an appointment at some point if she wants.  She'll see that this is hard on you as well, that both of you are trying to heal.

[Breakingfree9]

Can you afford to pay out-of-pocket for counseling?  My Sd12's mom tried to block counseling by not giving us a copy of SD's insurance card, and we were able to just pay cash (some therapists offered a discount for cash).

Some parents have had success phrasing counseling as something to help the child fix  bad behaviors (i.e., whatever mom is complaining about lately), or by letting the other parent choose the therapist.  [This doesn't always work longterm - SD's mom kept trying to fire the therapist after he figured out she was the problem.  My H had it written into the last custody modification that he had sole rights to make decisions for SD's mental health.]

Do you think mom's behavior, and D15's reactions, have risen to the level where you might need to file for more custody?

Yes, I believe it has. However, my viewpoint is subjective. I'd like to get D15 to a therapist who can give an objective view. I believe the objective viewpoint would help D15, as well. When D15 asks me, "What am I doing wrong? I get good grades. I don't vape. I don't drink. I don't get in trouble. I don't understand." It's easy for me to say, "Oh, sweetheart, this isn't about you." Of course I'm going to say that.

It's going to sound very different coming from a therapist.

[worriedStepmom]

It is really good for them to have external validation from a neutral person. 

Just make sure that your expectations are set appropriately.  My H had hopes that the T would provide us a roadmap - that after 6 months or so the T would tell us "SD would do best with a schedule that looks like x, Y, or Z".  That isn't what happened. 
T's job is to help SD manage whatever is going on currently and make sure that we  have insight into what is really bothering her so we can reinforce the skills she is learning.  Her T also does not want to testify in court, as that can make it harder for the child to trust him.

This summer, when I told T that H filed for another modification, his response was "Good.  I wondered why you were waiting so long."

You can do the legal preparation while you are working to get her to see the T.  Have you talked to a lawyer about your chances of prevailing, or about what kind of evidence you might need?

[livednlearned]

Does D15 know her mom might have BPD?

Does she know about BPD?

[mart555]

Does D15 know her mom might have BPD?

Does she know about BPD?

This makes a significant difference.  Even my 10 yo one knew that what his mom was saying was partially due to her disorder.  The mean stuff said by the BPD still hurts them, but hopefully they don't blame themselves as much.  As a bonus, it helps them understand the divorce a bit more..

[40days_in_desert]

When D18 (then 16) wanted to see a T but her fear was mom getting too involved and demand that the T tell everything that was said during sessions. When D18 was 13 and which was about six months before we separated, mom took her to see a T due to a sudden weight loss from not eating and signs of cutting. After the first session, mom came in and demanded that the T tell her everything that was discussed. This was with our daughter right there beside her. This created extra anxiety for our daughter and thus reluctant to see another T.

Two years ago when D18 (then 16) wanted to see a T, I took a chance and promised her that I wouldn't tell her mom. I had full custody of D18 by this time but was still required to inform mom of any medical treatment for D18. I figured that I would be granted leniency if we ended up in court even though I doubted that we would end up there. In my mind our daughter's well being was worth the risk. She wasn't willing to go without that assurance and I assured D that I would take full responsibility of the idea if ever confronted by mom. I let D18 pick the T from a list of provider's covered by my insurance network. We looked at the bio's and credentials that had pictures. D18 ended up telling mom anyway and the fallout was far less than expected. I'm not suggesting this for you but wanted to share what I chose and the risk that I was willing to take. My ex is one that is extremely afraid of court and has little to no financial means to hire a lawyer so the risk was somewhat low.

[mart555]

She wasn't willing to go without that assurance and I assured D that I would take full responsibility of the idea if ever confronted by mom.

Excellent move.  It is super important that your kids know that they can count on you.  I can't wait for my kids to be 18, then their mom won't be able to do anything.

[40days_in_desert]

I couldn't be more proud of my oldest daughter. Starting at around age 12 she would confront her mother and try and call her out on her behavior. Of course this didn't produce good results. Especially since half the time she was trying to defend me when engaging with her mother.
When she was 15 we started talking about not engaging this way with her mom and establishing healthy boundaries. She caught on pretty quick and over the next year or so she changed the way she interacted with mom. This made it easier, along with my assurance to shoulder any fallout from her mother, to take the step at 16 to see a T.
I wish you the best with your journey in helping your children cope with what they're going through.