How do you handle victimization?

[Ozzie101]

I'm curious how others deal with this. I'm sure my H isn't the only one who has this tendency.

For instance, he's having some troubles with a psychiatrist who is really bad about getting back to him. (This is not the first time or the first P. He keeps running into this problem, which makes me wonder if there's something I don't know and there is actually something he's doing to cause his doctors to run the other way or ghost him entirely.) He wrote me an email discussing that, among other things, and said "I cannot be held responsible if I quit therapy because no medical practitioner can give me any advice as far as what to do at this point." He has a good relationship with his therapist -- the first one he's connected with. But he talks about quitting her, too.

Or, if he's stressed or upset about something, he talks about how his reaction will be a bad one, or it will make him angry and how that won't be his fault. Any reaction on his part will be because of what the other person did.

Someone who works for him was being slow about responding to emails about an important issue (keep in mind, this was New Year's Eve, late afternoon). H got more and more worked up about it, then said, "That's it. I'm quitting my job. It's not my fault. They're making me do this. We can't live on your salary but that's not going to be my problem." Got his phone like he was going to type an email. Last year, I would have flipped out. This time, I just sort of stared at him as he messed around with his phone. He finally put it down and moved on. The guy responded and it was all fine.

To me, this all smells of abdicating responsibility in a big way. Not something I particularly admire or agree with. I believe that, while we can't control the actions of others, we can control our actions and reactions.

Thing is, he's usually very quick to accept responsibility or to admit when he's done wrong and apologize.

I know the BPD mind doesn't necessarily work this way. Lately, I don't really respond at all when he says this stuff -- at least not when he's dysregulating. If he seems baseline and open to serious discussion, I'll tell him what I think and he always says, "I know you're right." Of course, that doesn't stick when he's stressed or bothered.

So, how do others deal with this? And how do you keep it from eating away at you and your respect for your pwBPD?

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[strugglingBF]

This is an interesting questions.  With my GF, she is very quick to accept responsibility for things that are trivial.  Also, things having to do with her professional career.  However, anything that has to do with a relationship that is more personal in nature is someone else's fault.  She has moments where she will talk calmly about our problems and briefly throw in there that she has insecurities or things to work on (VERY briefly) on the tail end of telling me all the things I need to do.  Outside of a personal relationship with her she appears happy-go-lucky and very grounded for the most part.  That is one of the reasons I probably look crazy to other people.  They have no idea what I am dealing with in my relationship behind closed doors.  90% of the time she will not admit having any insecurities or things to work on.  I have to catch her in that 10% mode to make any progress or have any type of open ear.  However, most of the progress that is made during that open-minded time is lost due to the BPD tendencies. 

I will say there are many times I listen to my GF talk about a particular subject and lose a ton of respect for her.  Hard to recount them all, but she takes very close-minded stances on things, puts her foot in her mouth, or takes a stance on something that is so outlandish just to be that person that can make people's jaws drop.  I think she enjoys that to some extent, even if it is something I know she doesn't believe in.  She will tell me about something traumatic that happened to her before we met, tell me that she has trouble talking about it and it is one of the worst experiences of her life.  Then I will catch her talking with a table of women at a bar about the same incident almost boasting about it like, "look at how crazy my life has been".  WTH?

Most of her friends do not stay in close contact with her.  This severely bothers her because she HAS to be liked by everyone.  Her old friends from a previous job will all go do things together and they NEVER invite her.  She will see their pics on Facebook and post things on their pics like, "so glad you guys thought about me for this trip", or something else condescending calling them all out on their Facebook post.  It doesn't work because they still don't invite her to anything.  Maybe occasionally if one of them has a bonfire at their house, but I'm not certain that she doesn't just invite herself.  these people aren't her friends anyway, but she has to be liked.  I have witnessed them putting her down behind her back, and that is when they knew I was in earshot.  I support her because stuff like this hurts her, even thought she blames me for them not calling her or inviting her to anything.  Says that I am controlling and wont let her hang out with them.  Funny, I have never stopped her from doing anything with them. 

She is to this day, and always has been from my knowledge, very immature and irresponsible.  She would leave her 8 and 6 year old kids home alone and go out after putting them to bed to either drink or hook up with guys.  Come home fall-down drunk.  This was a regular occurrence for her.  She is nowhere near that irresponsible now, but I am fairly certain that had a lasting effect on her kids, most certainly her daughter who was essentially unsupervised during her critical teen years while boys were assaulting her with requests for nudes or requests to sneak out with them (her daughter is gorgeous and gets a lot of attention from bad boys...and she eats it up because she never had an active father in her life).  My GF was (and still is in many ways) extremely selfish and only thinks about what she wants.  Her thought process is literally (she has told me this), why should kids keep me from doing the things I want to do...party, hook up with guys, etc.

Sorry, I get so long winded on all my posts because I have so much I have witnessed and been through.  My GF has a very troubling past.  She has grown up in many ways, but it still creeps in if something comes up that hits one of her touchy spots.  And on a daily basis I do feel like I am dealing with a 12 year old in a 46 year old's body. 

[pursuingJoy]

Ozzie you bring up a really good question. I love that you're measured and fair in your assessment, acknowledging that at times he can be very reasonable and appropriately apologetic.

I'm really challenged by this on various levels. My H often says he can't be held responsible for how he responds to my D16 because everything is her fault and claims that he is helplessly and miserably stuck between me and his mom.

Last year, I would have flipped out. This time, I just sort of stared at him as he messed around with his phone. He finally put it down and moved on. The guy responded and it was all fine.

I love your response to him here.    I've raised 3 kids and it's always fascinated me that when they encountered something big or scary, or they fell, they'd look to see my reaction first. My reaction sometimes dictated how they responded. If I stayed calm, so did they. If I fell over myself upset and crying with them, they knew there was a major problem afoot.

Do you think it's kind of the same for BPD adults? Your husband was upset about not getting a response right away so he verbalizes that to you to gauge how he should feel. By staying calm, you're sending the message that this isn't something to freak out about. Could be plausible?

So, how do others deal with this? And how do you keep it from eating away at you and your respect for your pwBPD?

The respect thing is a huge challenge for me. To be honest and fair, though, I also find myself playing the victim, and that helps me judge him a little less for doing the same. When I feel resentful or powerless to change the situation, I know that is victimhood rearing its ugly head. I work to face it, acknowledge it for what it is, and look for what I can control.

My H has shown interest in the Karpman Triangle so I've considered sharing my own victimhood realizations about myself with him in the hopes that it will shed a little light on unhealthy vs healthy dynamics.

[Ozzie101]

Do you think it's kind of the same for BPD adults? Your husband was upset about not getting a response right away so he verbalizes that to you to gauge how he should feel. By staying calm, you're sending the message that this isn't something to freak out about. Could be plausible?

Oh, I think that's definitely plausible. That's part of why I've worked hard at staying calm in these situations. The more centered I am, the less likely he is to fly off the handle. It's like my calmness keeps him tethered.

That said, it's exhausting to be the centered one. Especially when it's something that I'm worried about, too. His job is super-stressful at the moment and we're both aware that he will be let go sometime in the next 6 months. No fault of his own. It's the nature of his business. But he's been applying for a new one for months now without so much as an interview. The situation does worry me.

Like you, I am trying to be aware of my own victimhood tendencies. I try to look at my feelings and behavior: am I doing what I accuse him of doing? I think I was more guilty of that before. If I start to feel powerless, I remind myself of all the things I can do and that I am capable of doing them. That helps. But then, in any situation, I tend to look at "What role did I play? How could I have been responsible for part of this?" I've been that way for a long time. So, accepting responsibility has never really been a problem for me.

The Karpman Triangle is good. If I see the opportunity, I may talk about it with him -- like you, using myself as the example and see if he sees his own tendencies there. He's usually pretty perceptive and self-aware when he's in a calm place.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey Ozzie-

Oh girl... I’m constantly witnessing the victimizing, or rather villainizing and then escalation drama with my uBPDbf.  It’s his fear of something going terribly wrong and his “helplessness”  around the situation, I think primarily due to something he failed to prepare for.  That’s the key with mine.  Or that something’s going to go wrong because it can?

Example, and maybe you can draw from this...

He was selling a valuable asset he purchased three years ago.  When he bought it, I arranged for a very good attorney (free) through a close old high school friend of mine.  Things needed to be buttoned up properly on the front-end.  UBPDbf formed a corporation to hold the asset.  Once the attorney was onboard, I stepped away and they had at it.

Three years pass, he wants to sell the asset.  Good decision and BF’s broker brings the buyer.  Smooth sailing, right?

So BF signs the sales contract (after a bit of back and forth, and asks me every little question).  In the middle of the night, he wakes me in a PANICKED state!  Can he still use the asset until the closing?  I MUST read every word for him RIGHT NOW!  BF cannot sleep.  PLEASE!  OK, I read it and make notes while he goes back to sleep.  I hear him snoring.  As long as BF knows I have his back, he can rest.  I know how he thinks...

A few days later, I tell BF, “please get all your corporate documents together, you’ll need those for the closing.”  He looks at me like I’m speaking in tongues...

He didn’t have the attorney prepare ANY corporate docs...

BF begins to argue with me.  I stopped him and said, “This is not our argument. Do you wish to sell XX?”  His answer is “YES”

I say, “then your corporation needs to give its permission to sell.  Documents need to state that corporation wishes to sell.  Documents need to state what your corporation can and cannot not do according to law.”  Then I stop and look at him...

He KNOWS my background and knows I can do this. I’ve read and interpreted loads of contracts for him.  For free, of course.

Then he begins to plead his case to me.  I say, “yes my love, I’ve got you.”

The docs were the “easy” part.  The hard part was the HATING of the broker, the title company and everyone else who was involved in this transaction as BF felt they were all trying to sabotage the asset, the transaction, the ocean, world peace, etc.  and it didn’t help that the title company DID make a major gaff that made ME angry and question their credibility. 

So instead of BF blowing a gasket and exploding the deal, I told him “watch this”... I said, “you’ve never seen me be a “B on wheels, well you’re gonna see it now” and I got on the phone.  I was tactful and firm.  He sat there in silence and listened to me and their apologies.  I took care of him.  When I hung up, BF said... I HAVE to PAY YOU ! And I said “Thank you, yes you DO!”  And he did.

That didn’t stop his anxiety for the next week until it closed.  But I kept calming him down, telling him that all his ducks were in a row.  The broker has the same goals as BF.  If it didn’t close, BF would get the deposit AND his asset.  A NO LOSE.  Sleep well, my love.

Every picture tells a story, don’t it?  The Stones?  I think so.  It closed, in the nick of time.  But no, nothing is easy.  I think in my case, I now try to figure exactly where the fear lies, and move in to calm that (using rational explanations).  Yes, I play into the Karpman triangle, but this is my life.  I’ve chosen it and I need to settle the fears and angst  of my man in order to settle my own anxiety.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Ozzie101]

Good example, Gems! Thanks! There aren't many areas where I'm more of an expert than H, but he does often look to me for my advice or to tell him what to do. When I can't tell him, he panics even more, or accuses me of not helping because I don't want to be blamed if it goes wrong.

Villianizing really comes into things with us, too. H loves to have someone to blame. Someone to get angry at. Someone to rage about. He wants someone to be punished. The doctor who's not getting back to him? He wants to report him to the medical board. Doesn't do it because he knows it will lead to nothing: "Doctors protect doctors. All they care about is money and protecting each other." Then, because I have doctors in my immediate family, they get dragged into it, too. "If your dad did this, you'd protect him and defend him." Then he's getting angry about something that hasn't even happened.

One of my parents' long-time (40 years) friends is on the personnel committee where H works. If/when H loses his job (as I said, it will happen -- nature of the business), he has already told me he will have a HUGE problem with my parents if they continue to be friends with or in any way associate with this person and her husband.

If it's something he feels remotely insecure about, he'll start catastrophizing big-time.

The lashing out at people, wanting revenge and to hurt people is what really gets me. He never actually does it. But the talk does wear me down. I just don't work that way. The vindictiveness is not attractive or pretty.

I've been working on seeing through the fear to what's really bothering him. The other night, I knew it was because he was terrified about what will happen if he doesn't find another job before he loses this one.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Ozzie-

There really DOES seem to be a “stream of consciousness” to the rage flow.  I.e.  if your H loses his job your parents will need to end their long-term friendship with the person on the company’s board.  Or all doctors in your family are “BAD” because your H’s doctor did not call him back. 

Perhaps this boils down to the BPD feeling that if there is one tiny flaw in the pwBPD, this means the pwBPD is ALL BAD.  A horrible, terrible, worthless being.  Pure and simple.  I cannot count the number of times I’ve told BPBbf this is NOT the case.  A mistake is human and does NOT impact my love for him.  If we have a disagreement, our relationship does NOT END.  He finally, finally understands this last concept.

Ozzie -  before your H takes it from 1 to 1000, say when you see his motor revving up, can you say “honey, I am here beside you.  Let’s look at the worst short-term outcome.  Let’s plan for that, but KNOW we will land on our feet because we are capable.  I have every confidence.  We’re in this together.” 

Begin with the simplist terms, Ozzie.  I believe that H’s fear with each rage and catastrophic “image” is really about not being “good enough”.  They just don’t know how to say that.  Or don’t want to.  Or can’t.

My BF is a very “proud” man.  And only very recently, when I was discussing some therapy I was doing around my own self-loathing did he disclose to me that he screams self-hatred at himself in his car.  I NEVER, and I mean NEVER would have guessed that he felt that.  We bawled our eyes out.

The thing is, Ozzie... I have a few BPD traits and I know pretty much when they came on and exactly what caused them.  I figured this out a little over a year ago when I had a truly terrifying “holy sh$t” moment.   And when I became “acquainted” with my anger.  I understand EXACTLY the feelings that drive him.  I do NOT have any fear of abandonment.  I am petrified of engulfment, of being cornered, choked out, and suffocated.  I actually need way MORE space than my BF does, but he gets that and leaves me to it.  I hurt his feelings probably more than he hurts mine now.  I have to be careful... especially since I found my angry voice. 

I was trying so hard to understand the man I loved that I found out who *I* was... at 61 years old.  And I had had a long-term marriage (later learned he was NPD/BPD), raised three stepkids, had tons of friends, held long-term successful jobs, artist, volunteered, you name it.  And then I basically collapsed when this relationship blew apart my soul.

Why am I writing this?

I guess to tell you that your H is NOT more of an “expert” than you are, Ozzie.  Certainly NOT in the stuff of life that matters.  Please know that.  Always know that, my friend.  The steps you're taking to love this man are priceless.

Hugs to you.

Gemsforeyes 

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, Gems!

Definitely a stream of consciousness. It's tiring trying to keep up with it. Really, it's like emotional/verbal diarrhea (apologies for the imagery). I can sense the panic. The nice thing about learning about BPD is that I now understand a lot better what's going on.

One gem he threw out at me once: That if he lost his job and I divorced him, he'd make sure I had to pay child support. For SS9. Whom I've never adopted and, therefore, have no legal or financial responsibilities toward. I just ignored that, knowing it was coming from panic and fear on his part. And, in this instance, fear of not being able to provide for his child. So, he tried to toss the responsibility onto me. I get it. But it doesn't endear him to me either.

I think deep underneath, he's very much afraid that I'll walk away and leave him if he can no longer provide for me the way he has. Just as his discomfort with my therapist is fear that she'll convince me (or I'll convince myself) to leave.

Of course, I wouldn't do that, as I've told him many times. Marriage is a partnership. You don't walk away over something like a lost job. I believe when there's something that scares you, you should come up with a plan for "Ok, if this happens, what will we do?" Makes the unknown less scary.

When I sense he's headed on the path, maybe I can try doing that then. I have tried it before but maybe I was too late into the dysregulation. When he's upset, he'll deny what's really bothering him, only to come out with it later. Or we have this discussion in a calm time and I can remind him of it early in a slip-up.

The tragic thing is, the only thing that could really "drive me away" is him. Not that that wouldn't be my responsibility. It would be my choice and I'd have to own it.

Your insight is keen and valuable, Gems. And, it sounds, hard-earned. I, too, feel like through all of this, I'm learning more about myself -- my own flaws and strengths. Thank you.