3 months on from the split, still unresolved feelings and trauma Part 2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Mod note: This post has been split from and is a continuation of the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337793.msg13062435#msg13062435

why do you/did you think that she suddenly didnt care about you at all?

what do you think was going on under the hood?

Just her attitude during the dinner being so arrogant, it really was repulsive. I hadn't fathomed she could turn on me like this, I seriously never saw this coming. Her reasoning for the breakup wasn't along the lines of "I don't think this is working out, we're arguing and not seeing things the same way", it was more like "this is what's wrong with YOU and why I'm breaking up with YOU". I came away from the experience, shell shocked wondering if she was some sort of psychopath, but upon reviewing things with more perspective, I think it was more of a reactive, self defensive measure, grandstanding to hide her own engulfment/abandonment fears.

My first T I spoke to who had a background of working with BPD clients said the following:

"when people with BPD start to back away, or push you away, even go as far as to break up, this is typically because they have sensed something in you that is alerting them to you wanting to break up with them...

So instead of allowing themselves to get hurt, they will then create this made up reason as to why they have to break up with you. It is not fair for anyone involved. BPD often keeps people from experiencing real love, because to them, there is always a catch. There will always be a reason as to why they cannot truly be committed. Even when it seems as if they are, because they can also become attached very fast, but in the back of their minds, they are just waiting for their significant other to say something or do something that could look like a breakup waiting to happen."

This tallies 100% with how she acted that Halloween, messaging me "all ok?" then promptly going out and sabotaging the relationship.

Same thing happened this time, she texted me 'all ok?' on successive days, I think this was her checking if she was in the clear following her behaviour on the last date. There were a couple of little details indicative of this the morning following the row. I couldn't sleep properly that night, got out of bed to get a sleeping tablet, came back and the conversation went like:

ex - "Why did you get up?"
PB -"To get a sleeping tablet"
ex- "Why?"
PB - "Because I couldn't sleep"
ex- "Why?"
PB "I dunno"

Then while I was upstairs, she looked up at me and smiled, but kept looking at me, as if she was waiting for me to reciprocate (which I did). It all felt like she was checking if I was annoyed at her.

I think she sensed (correctly) that I was wary of her, sensed a breakup eventually coming, things came to a head during dinner and with a few drinks in her, had some sort of a mini borderline rage episode and impulsively dumped me, in an act of reactive anger. When she called me for the FaceTime the night before, I could tell she had been crying. She'd had a bad day at work, but I'm wondering if that in combination with her feeling that I was withdrawing from her that week had her catastrophising about us. I understand that a lot of self-sabotage goes on with BPD.

This on top of her behaviour post-breakup tells me that she was affected by this, perhaps a great deal. The fact that I'd blocked her and still she contacted me anyway just over a month later, late at night, suggests this as well.

when you got the email from her about the ticket, how did you feel?

Furious, and extremely hurt by the 'single track mind' and 'thank god I split up with you' remarks. From my perspective, this girl had cheated on me, ghosted me, blindsided and dumped me in public, and was now hurling abuse at me.

With some distance and perspective though, I can read more between the lines of what was said. It could be read in a very petulant tone, like a child screaming "I HATE YOU!" without literally meaning it, but just communicating their own level of hurt. It nearly reads as if I broke up with her. She did rattle off that entire message within about 5 mins of mine, it clearly wasn't calculated, it was an immediate, emotional response.

Even the 'single track minded' comment has me wondering if she was alluding to the fact that I took her at face value and blocked her, instead of arguing, trying to win her back, that she wasn't expecting it to literally be completely over. My friend who knew all about her thought she did it wanting me to chase her. All this and the type of overcompensatory selfies she was putting up post breakup do make me think she was profoundly affected by this all.

That she's now on Tinder, despite telling me how much she hated it and would never use it again, tells me she's lonely and hurting herself.

[PretentiousBread]

Mod note: This post has been split from and is a continuation of the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337793.msg13062435#msg13062435

why do you/did you think that she suddenly didnt care about you at all?

what do you think was going on under the hood?

Just her attitude during the dinner being so arrogant, it really was repulsive. I hadn't fathomed she could turn on me like this, I seriously never saw this coming. Her reasoning for the breakup wasn't along the lines of "I don't think this is working out, we're arguing and not seeing things the same way", it was more like "this is what's wrong with YOU and why I'm breaking up with YOU". I came away from the experience, shell shocked wondering if she was some sort of psychopath, but upon reviewing things with more perspective, I think it was more of a reactive, self defensive measure, grandstanding to hide her own engulfment/abandonment fears.

My first T I spoke to who had a background of working with BPD clients said the following:

"when people with BPD start to back away, or push you away, even go as far as to break up, this is typically because they have sensed something in you that is alerting them to you wanting to break up with them...

So instead of allowing themselves to get hurt, they will then create this made up reason as to why they have to break up with you. It is not fair for anyone involved. BPD often keeps people from experiencing real love, because to them, there is always a catch. There will always be a reason as to why they cannot truly be committed. Even when it seems as if they are, because they can also become attached very fast, but in the back of their minds, they are just waiting for their significant other to say something or do something that could look like a breakup waiting to happen."

This tallies 100% with how she acted that Halloween, messaging me "all ok?" then promptly going out and sabotaging the relationship.

Same thing happened this time, she texted me 'all ok?' on successive days, I think this was her checking if she was in the clear following her behaviour on the last date. There were a couple of little details indicative of this the morning following the row. I couldn't sleep properly that night, got out of bed to get a sleeping tablet, came back and the conversation went like:

ex - "Why did you get up?"
PB -"To get a sleeping tablet"
ex- "Why?"
PB - "Because I couldn't sleep"
ex- "Why?"
PB "I dunno"

Then while I was upstairs, she looked up at me and smiled, but kept looking at me, as if she was waiting for me to reciprocate (which I did). It all felt like she was checking if I was annoyed at her.

I think she sensed (correctly) that I was wary of her, sensed a breakup eventually coming, things came to a head during dinner and with a few drinks in her, had some sort of a mini borderline rage episode and impulsively dumped me, in an act of reactive anger. When she called me for the FaceTime the night before, I could tell she had been crying. She'd had a bad day at work, but I'm wondering if that in combination with her feeling that I was withdrawing from her that week had her catastrophising about us. I understand that a lot of self-sabotage goes on with BPD.

This on top of her behaviour post-breakup tells me that she was affected by this, perhaps a great deal. The fact that I'd blocked her and still she contacted me anyway just over a month later, late at night, suggests this as well.

when you got the email from her about the ticket, how did you feel?

Furious, and extremely hurt by the 'single track mind' and 'thank god I split up with you' remarks. From my perspective, this girl had cheated on me, ghosted me, blindsided and dumped me in public, and was now hurling abuse at me.

With some distance and perspective though, I can read more between the lines of what was said. It could be read in a very petulant tone, like a child screaming "I HATE YOU!" without literally meaning it, but just communicating their own level of hurt. It nearly reads as if I broke up with her. She did rattle off that entire message within about 5 mins of mine, it clearly wasn't calculated, it was an immediate, emotional response.

Even the 'single track minded' comment has me wondering if she was alluding to the fact that I took her at face value and blocked her, instead of arguing, trying to win her back, that she wasn't expecting it to literally be completely over. My friend who knew all about her thought she did it wanting me to chase her. All this and the type of overcompensatory selfies she was putting up post breakup do make me think she was profoundly affected by this all.

That she's now on Tinder, despite telling me how much she hated it and would never use it again, tells me she's lonely and hurting herself.

[once removed]

so you feel that she sensed a breakup was coming and launched a preemptive strike and invented a reason.

but she didnt really want a breakup, it was impulsive and reacting out of anger, and she was hoping/expecting you to chase her, and devastated/angry when you didnt.

does that sound right?

[PretentiousBread]

so you feel that she sensed a breakup was coming and launched a preemptive strike and invented a reason.

but she didnt really want a breakup, it was impulsive and reacting out of anger, and she was hoping/expecting you to chase her, and devastated/angry when you didnt.

does that sound right?

I just don't know, I feel like it's some sort of a combination. None of it was calculated I don't think, so it was a very reactionary thing. She perceived I was withdrawing so began to devalue in self defense. I think the discard was defensive posturing, and that in her mind she hadn't thought it through and wasn't truly done with me.

Certainly my brother and friend told me she definitely would be back, knowing all that they knew about her, and that she just doesn't know what she wants.

What do you think?

Speaking for myself, when I broke up with her the first time, although I was totally pushed into it by her and I believe she had someone else lined up, I made that clear to her that I felt forced and that I didn't really want to, and it was partly pre-emptive, and deep down I hoped she would seek to make amends. I've grown since then and would handle things differently.

[once removed]

She perceived I was withdrawing

is that an accurate perception?

[PretentiousBread]

is that an accurate perception?

Yes, admittedly I was very worried and felt put out by her actions the previous date, but I wasn't going to leave her, I wanted to try and work things through. The 'all ok?' messages  were in response to me simply not having messaged her yet those days (but neither had she).

[PretentiousBread]

Another couple of moments I've just recalled were on the day after the row, she asked me for when I'd like to meet her kids, I said I wasn't fobbing off the answer but that it's genuinely up to her, because that's her decision. She just said ok. I've a feeling with hindsight she was asking it for reassurance as to how serious I was about her. It reminded me of when she suggested becoming FB official after the previous date, I told her that I'm not fussed cos I don't care about that stuff but if it's something that'd make her happy, I'd happily do it for her. That got a similar "hmm alright" reaction, again I think it was a little test of how invested I was in her.

Then back to the following weekend, later in the car she looked at me and said, "you do love me...don't you?" to which I said "I think I have done for a while". Does this not all indicate that she was testing the waters with me after the row, checking my commitment to her (even though she had none to me)? To message me "all ok?" on two successive days seems to indicate a high level of anxiety/worry about me.

[once removed]

I mentioned my sore head with the hangover and how I hoped the restaurant wouldn't be full of noisy kids all around us, to which she said "Really? I don't have any problem with that, in fact I quite like having younger ones around." I'd often notice little moments like that with her and they were becoming more and more common now.

Another couple of moments I've just recalled were on the day after the row, she asked me for when I'd like to meet her kids, I said I wasn't fobbing off the answer but that it's genuinely up to her, because that's her decision. She just said ok. I've a feeling with hindsight she was asking it for reassurance as to how serious I was about her. It reminded me of when she suggested becoming FB official after the previous date, I told her that I'm not fussed cos I don't care about that stuff but if it's something that'd make her happy, I'd happily do it for her. That got a similar "hmm alright" reaction, again I think it was a little test of how invested I was in her.

Then back to the following weekend, later in the car she looked at me and said, "you do love me...don't you?" to which I said "I think I have done for a while". Does this not all indicate that she was testing the waters with me after the row, checking my commitment to her

i think that these are all examples of a woman exploring your level of commitment, or enthusiasm, or long term compatibility, especially the bits about kids. women (speaking generally here) will often do this sort of thing, and making things official is fun, romantic, etc. for single parents, the relationship a potential partner will have with their kid(s) is a huge deal.

so if thats what she was doing, what impression do you think your responses gave?

[PretentiousBread]

i think that these are all examples of a woman exploring your level of commitment, or enthusiasm, or long term compatibility, especially the bits about kids. women (speaking generally here) will often do this sort of thing, and making things official is fun, romantic, etc. for single parents, the relationship a potential partner will have with their kid(s) is a huge deal.

so if thats what she was doing, what impression do you think your responses gave?

So on our first date of the 2nd r/s I'd shown a genuine great interest in her kids, especially after seeing her FB and getting more of a feel for her home life. She really lit up and said at that time how cool it was that I was so interested in them, she seemed really happy at this. But I was balancing this against respecting her space as a mother, and was wary of a time in the 1st r/s when I told her I was looking forward to meeting her kids, to which she was like "whoa, slow down" (that was on our last date which didn't seem so great). I can't remember exactly what was said that lead to me saying this, but I remember saying that I just didn't want to step on her toes cos her kids are her domain to which she was like "awwww" and seemed to appreciate that?

After our 1st date getting back together, when we were talking about what we were up to since the breakup, I'd told her that I deleted every trace of her off my phone to try to move on, but that the one thing I couldn't bring myself to was a little video she sent me of her and her kids playing in the park, cos it felt weird when they'd nothing to do with the breakup. She sent me a pic of her daughter that night and I said what a little angel she was.

At some point during the 2nd r/s she asked me what way I'd like to meet her kids, and I suggested doing something fun outdoors, so they've space and freedom and don't feel pressured, and she agreed that was a good idea and she'd been thinking something similar.

Given that we were only back together officially all of 1-2 weeks, I felt all my responses were appropriate to what she was asking me. About being FB official, I actually would've liked that, but I figured that'd come in time and that I didn't want to rush headlong into it or come across too full on myself. I thought my response was well measured, I said I'd be the first person to want to show off this gorgeous girl as my g/f on FB, but that the social media stuff is not important to me, the actual relationship was, but that if it would be something that would make her happy that I'd gladly do it. I actually thought this was a nice touch showing her my priorities are her and the relationship, not the social validation.

I should add that I was playing it all cooler than what I felt, was still following the Corey Wayne's advice, and when she sent me what basically amounted to a breakup text in the 1st r/s she complained that I was moving things on too fast. At one point on a phone call she said "do you think we're moving too fast?" to which I said "frankly, no?" (we were only meeting once a week, but were in constant contact) and she said "yeah, me neither", which I now know was probably more like "I think we are".

So it was confusing for me, wanting to show high interest, but not smother her, show interest in her kids but not overstep the boundaries.

[once removed]

About being FB official, I actually would've liked that, but I figured that'd come in time and that I didn't want to rush headlong into it or come across too full on myself.

we had another member here whos ex really wanted him to read about the five love languages, particularly hers. he encouraged her to instead tell him about her, and communicate, and that he didnt need to read some book to learn about her. he meant well. she felt shut down and discouraged.

im hardly suggesting that you not jumping on board with making it "facebook official" led to a breakup, or that any one incident did. relationship breakdowns are about a progression of events between/by two people, some big, some small, and often hard to see.

After our 1st date getting back together, when we were talking about what we were up to since the breakup,

there was a situation with another girl during the time apart, do i have that right? at what point did you tell her about that, and how did she respond?

I should add that I was playing it all cooler than what I felt, was still following the Corey Wayne's advice

im familiar with Corey Wayne  . he can teach you not to over pursue and not to chase, which is good advice for any man (i was the king of that stuff!) but he wont really teach you the skills to connect on an emotional level, and to build the foundations for a long term relationship. most of it is pickup artist tricks and push/pull games that cover for an attachment style rather than manage/work within it.

At one point on a phone call she said "do you think we're moving too fast?" to which I said "frankly, no?" (we were only meeting once a week, but were in constant contact) and she said "yeah, me neither", which I now know was probably more like "I think we are".

did you ask her if she thought you were moving too fast, and why?

[PretentiousBread]

there was a situation with another girl during the time apart, do i have that right? at what point did you tell her about that, and how did she respond?

Yes, that was the day after our first date getting back together, we were watching TV and she asked me if I saw anyone or went on dates with anyone during the time we were apart (about 2.5 months), I told her I went on one date:

upwBPDex: "Was she smart?"
Me: "Yeah, actually she was REALLY smart"
upwBPDex: "...you weren't meant to say that. Did she try to see you again?"
Me: "No, but I didn't really either. She was really nice and we got on well but there wasn't a real spark, not like there was between you and I"

It was funny because I was watching the TV talking about it all nonchalantly and she was sitting beside me, turned towards me looking at me during this, and I could feel her eyes burn a hole through the side of my head during this questioning. She later admitted that when she heard I'd been on a date that it "really didn't feel good".

Thing is, my stomach also would absolutely turn at the thought of her with another guy, so I didn't ask if she'd been with anyone (I'm assuming she had), I literally didn't want to know.

im familiar with Corey Wayne  . he can teach you not to over pursue and not to chase, which is good advice for any man (i was the king of that stuff!) but he wont really teach you the skills to connect on an emotional level, and to build the foundations for a long term relationship. most of it is pickup artist tricks and push/pull games that cover for an attachment style rather than manage/work within it.

I now strongly believe this heavily contributed to the breakup. On his advice, I was less responsive ("all ok?") kept texting to a strict minimum, though I had said to her on several occasions that maybe we text too much and that it creates problems, she would agree but then we'd just go back to texting all the time (during the first r/s). Again, I at this stage was under the impression that I bored her and turned her off by being too keen the first time round. Yet with hindsight, I can think of about a half dozen occasions in the 1st r/s where my natural sensitivity and consideration was what put out a fire with her, that if I'd been doing the Corey Wayne thing back then, that it might've imploded much sooner

One of Corey Wayne's justifications for these 'gaming' tactics (it's not really game though by traditional standards) is that it 'weeds out' insecure women so that you save yourself the trouble later on. But her insecurity and shy vulnerability was part of what I found endearing and actually attractive about her, that she didn't seem sure of herself, that she questioned herself at times.

I also tried to get her to open up to me in our final FaceTime based on Corey Wayne's teachings, and that truly went down like a lead balloon. It's true that without such a definite 'strategy' as his, that I'd have sensed it wasn't the time to try and speak to her as she seemed very down, but I also think she was very down about us and it might've ended up being a break up phone call either way. I was hoping to clear the air to make us both feel better (for the date the following night) I was being as positive as possible yet just had this wall of negativity reflected back at me, it was communicating to me that we were on very different pages here (just a couple of days after her "all ok?" messages). I told her I'd be devastated if we didn't work out, wouldn't she be? To which she said "I do want it to work out, but I feel like it shouldn't be so hard". Impossible.

Again, I try not to blame myself and do well to remind myself of how unjustified it was to have treated me how she then did for the crime of trying to talk to her when she'd had a bad day. When I try and imagine another more normal girl reacting this way, it seems absurd.

So is your impression that she felt I was insufficiently 'into' her basically, that the FB official suggestion, triangulation and so on were attempts to illicit the displays from me that she needed of my devotion to her? Ironic if so as this is the very thing I thought had put her off the first time round. I guess it is possible that the 1st relationship triggered engulfment and 2nd r/s abandonment.

It just seems absurd to me that she would think I wasn't committed, with the caveat that it's true I was only committed insofar as my watchful eye on her wonky behaviour was continuing to give me the green light on her. I was in love with her, I fantasised about her, I told her there wasn't a day after we first broke up that I didn't think about her. My friend's opinion was that she knew she had me by the balls after she cheated and I didn't automatically break up. For that to be the case she surely would have no doubts of my devotion to her. Then again, she did say that she thought I never liked her, as in actively disliked her, before we got together because of how I came across. I do seem to flit between being stoic as f**k and a total open book. My outward affect is extremely 'chill', doesn't give much away.

did you ask her if she thought you were moving too fast, and why?

No, we were having a really deep long phone call, felt like I was opening her up and she seemed enthralled, fully engaged. Obviously if I was getting all intense but was picking up on vibes that she was uncomfortable I'd have backed off, but then when she said "me neither" after I said I didn't feel like we were going too fast, I figured she had asked it in a "I don't want this to stop, but are we going too fast? Yet it feels so right!" sort of way? As I recall, we got disconnected, I sent her a message about how much we seem to connect and she replied "Come here to me you sexy thing!", then I fell asleep and she was the one trying to call again. Interestingly I've just remembered, the morning after this she texted apologising for how she got on last night. Again, I just saw it as shyness, it didn't bother me but with hindsight you could say it was concerning that she would feel so embarrassed about being in her 'true self' around me when I thought this was what being in a relationship was about, acceptance of each other's true selves. Again, I know now that as with almost everything, this isn't so easy for pwBPD.

But I need to say, she was the one with the intimacy/trust issues (self admitted), not me, so it's not like I was rushing things by any normal standard. By comparison, I went with a girl for just one night last month, a literal one night stand, and during it and the day after, we probably got more intimate than I ever did with the upwBPDex, in the space of a day. I'm extremely mindful of smothering someone.

[once removed]

So is your impression that she felt I was insufficiently 'into' her basically

not exactly.

this was a three month relationship (correct me if im wrong). most relationships do not survive ninety days.

a relationship is also a series of interactions that test the relationship on large and small levels. i think this relationship involved a series of incidents/tests/not being on the same page that didnt indicate long term compatibility, both from your perspective and from hers.

for (one) example, multiple breakups/makeups damage a relationship over time. one breakup in a three month relationship wouldnt doom it, but odds wouldnt be great. people with bpd traits have inherent trust issues, so finding out that you saw someone else would feel like a big betrayal. and with an insecure person, that can either drive them to pursue you, or push them away, or both.

i think that it was a series of straws that broke the camels back, and that she was telling you the issue from her perspective when she said:

"I do want it to work out, but I feel like it shouldn't be so hard".

the crime of trying to talk to her when she'd had a bad day

i think it was bad timing, not the be all end all. i think that it set things in motion, while the seeds had been planted. i dont think shed completely made her mind up to break up with you when it happened, but i think she was leaning toward it. i think things had come to a head. i think in that moment, you didnt tell her what she wanted to hear.

her insecurity and shy vulnerability was part of what I found endearing and actually attractive about her, that she didn't seem sure of herself, that she questioned herself at times.

this is my history as well. question: do you think that on some level you saw yourself in that, or that it helped you to feel more confident with her, or both?

[PretentiousBread]

not exactly.

this was a three month relationship (correct me if im wrong). most relationships do not survive ninety days.

a relationship is also a series of interactions that test the relationship on large and small levels. i think this relationship involved a series of incidents/tests/not being on the same page that didnt indicate long term compatibility, both from your perspective and from hers.

for (one) example, multiple breakups/makeups damage a relationship over time. one breakup in a three month relationship wouldnt doom it, but odds wouldnt be great. people with bpd traits have inherent trust issues, so finding out that you saw someone else would feel like a big betrayal. and with an insecure person, that can either drive them to pursue you, or push them away, or both.

i think that it was a series of straws that broke the camels back, and that she was telling you the issue from her perspective when she said:

i think it was bad timing, not the be all end all. i think that it set things in motion, while the seeds had been planted. i dont think shed completely made her mind up to break up with you when it happened, but i think she was leaning toward it. i think things had come to a head. i think in that moment, you didnt tell her what she wanted to hear.

this is my history as well. question: do you think that on some level you saw yourself in that, or that it helped you to feel more confident with her, or both?

Things were only so hard because she would instigate problems and then hold me accountable for them, she'd pay lip service to the idea of her own accountability and say she was sorry but then act in the opposite way i.e. apologising for cheating, doesn't want to lose me, would understand if I never want to speak to her again etc - then pushes me away because I blanked her for a split second in the corridor, and plays hardball with me. Or saying the breakup was her fault, then going out of her way to triangulate another man into the mix and then dismissing the damaged trust her cheating caused as "something that happened 6 months ago", again, like it was my problem. Then the moment she couldn't be bothered with it anymore she would give it the "should it be so hard?" line, completely snookering you and tanking the relationship. I did everything I could to make it work, she did everything she could to destroy it.

And to think she is sitting there blaming ME, hating me, "thank God I split up with you", it beggars belief - how can someone possibly have done all that they've done; cheated on you, pushed you away, ghosted you, then dumped you in the nastiest way, only to then completely disregard all of their own toxic behaviour and hold YOU up as the villain? I had assumed while we were going out that the good faith I'd shown in forgiving her and giving her another chance was tacitly acknowledged, only to see it was taken for granted and not factored whatsoever into her treatment of me. How on earth could she be so blind to the effect that her actions are bound to have on someone?

I know you said before what if it's not about who's at fault etc. but the reality is that during the relationship IT IS about this, because when a party is at fault the onus is on them to rectify it, if they don't, the other feels aggrieved and that's when problems develop instead of being resolved. You can analyse it in the aftermath and be philosophical about it and say regardless of blame you were incompatible because of this, but a person taking ownership for their own actions is critical in a relationship, always has to be give and take, and not doing so is violating a basic expectation of what a relationship is.

I'm the first person to hold up my hands and apologise if I think I've done anything wrong at all, and I seek to make up for it (for minor things). All it'd have taken on her part to make me feel secure in the relationship was a statement that she'd wronged me and wanted to make it up to me, literally that's it. So having to even ask for this to begin with was frustrating enough, never mind feeling that it ran the risk of her ending the relationship over such a tentative plea for the most basic showing of empathy you could ask a person, and that indeed I was absolutely scolded for it. Ironically, she once said the best way to ask someone's forgiveness is to say "what can I do to make this right?", and she never gave me anything like that.

Regarding seeing myself in her, yes, we said that of each other, in fact unusually for her she said that of me first (although I'd been thinking it about her very soon after meeting her). I think like any relationship, you tentatively reveal your true self to your partner and it's their reactions to this that is maybe the most important barometer to how you feel about whether the relationship will go anywhere. Your true self needs to be accepted or else you're an actor in your own relationship.

I had it figured out very early on that we would relate to each other a lot, and discovering this more and more during the first 6 weeks or so was really amazing. She told me before that her favourite single moment of the relationship was actually something that I said to her. We were sitting by the lake alone, we kissed, then I told her "there's a child like innocence about us". This is why it all hurts so much, I couldn't jeopardise, much less throw such a thing away, yet she did just that. How could she feel this way and then act that way?

[PretentiousBread]

Another thing to say, 2010's line on BPD (she at the very least had many strong BPD traits) is that it's a repetitious compulsive attachment disorder, that ultimately you didn't do anything wrong and you weren't to blame, that it was going to happen to anyone in your position sooner or later and that you were a trigger to their disorder.

Your position seems to be implying that there was some sort of equal responsibility in this breakup, that there were mutual incompatibilities, (she cheated and I was a human being) but is this meant with the handicap in place that she's BPD and allowing for this? Or just that genuinely I'm as responsible for the breakup as what she was? Because after reading all this I'm feeling very hurt at the idea that I deserved any of this treatment or that she was in any way justified in how she acted.

[once removed]

after reading all this I'm feeling very hurt

i understand.

im about 8 years now out of my breakup. i think the hardest parts of my recovery were when people suggested to me that i had anything to do with my ex dumping me after 3 years together. it would send me into a complete tailspin. i would spend hours crying my eyes out. in anger. frustration. sadness. desperation. my ex was a pill from the beginning, likely cheated on me multiple times, and left me for another guy. i sacrificed a lot for her. ive been through it too.

learning about BPD, when i was experiencing incredible raw pain was a godsend. it was a relief from very deep wounds of rejection.

it didnt fully explain what happened to me and what i was suffering from, and in fact, clinging to that idea prolonged my pain. looking back, those moments of anger, frustration, sadness, desperation, were the pain of detaching from the wounds that kept me in bondage, for the gain of, ultimately, freedom.

it may be too soon to navigate. i know it would have been for me.

youre trying to understand, as i gather, where it all went wrong. what happened. when it happened. why it happened. what was going on in her head.

and im here to tell you that youll get there, but not without facing some uncomfortable things that will hurt. really, truly, getting to the bottom of it, rather than explanations that soothe your pain, is your way out of it.

im pushing you a bit. do you want to trust me, or would you prefer to dial things back a bit? either is okay.

[PretentiousBread]

It’s just this is a pretty big departure from the 2010 school of thought and of ‘radical acceptance’, which basically tells you to ‘forgive them for they know not what they do’ sort of thing. And it depersonalises the horrible treatment you’re given in the devalue-discard, tells you to let go of the hurtful reasons given for the breakup, that they shouldn’t be taken to heart.

One of the toughest things to deal with since it has been living with her judgement of me in my psyche, that I’m a ‘negative’ person and that she saw something in me that was worth rejecting me as a partner, and that the heinous way she discarded me must have been justified in some manner or else she wouldn’t have done it. All the reasons given for the breakup were negative judgements of me as a human being.

I’ve spent the past 4 months working my way out of that train of thought, clawing back my self respect and seeing  I was treated absolutely horribly by a very selfish and toxic girl. But what you’re asking now is calling all this into doubt. I can accept that certain behaviours/reactions of my own negatively affected her perception of me, but not that these perceptions were accurate, except for minor imperfections that we unfortunately as humans and not Gods tend to have some of.

2010’s position is that they seek reactions in you which affirm their doubts and give them errors in judgement over who you are I.e. they set you up for failure, they want a persecutor etc, and I have to say that maps on 100% with what I experienced with her. The devaluation of me was actually a force in motion, a process of problem finding and making, she would actively seek out and create differences between us it as opposed to merely observing them. I could see this clear as day, it wasn’t natural, I cannot accept that this was remotely a fair evaluation of me. It was a relationship sabotage on her part, and I’m not saying this subjectively, even one of our colleagues told me she is insecure and sabotages. The fact that the reasons for the initial breakup and final breakup are completely different just backs this up, she’ll give whatever reason fits in the moment as an excuse for why we need to break up.

Are you asking me to take these horrible things at face value and accept any of the following:

I’m a negative person
She has to watch what she says around me
I’m single track minded
I’m inconsiderate of how a person is feeling
Me saying she was acting passive aggressively when putting her handbag between us was ‘a red flag’
I was very demanding for asking her understanding of the affect her cheating had on me, for ‘something that happened 6 months ago’
It was inappropriate to have an open discussion about anything serious so early in the relationship
I am controlling
She can’t be herself around me
We’re too different

[PretentiousBread]

To answer your post more directly, and I wish to reiterate how grateful I am for you helping me through this (I should be paying you for this), you're correct that I just want to know what really went on, the truth (even if painful), what she was genuinely thinking during that week and the day of the breakup, how she likely felt after, what you make of her contacting me a month later about the ticket etc. And I really want to know how she feels about me. Am I understanding correctly that her feelings per se were intact but that they had become bad feelings, and that she rationalised her thought process to the conclusion of dumping me based on things she saw as incompatibility? Yet I know with BPD the strength of the attachment is almost totally feeling based. James F. Masterson:

"In the case of the borderline, relationships, dominated by the need to defend against the fear of the abandonment depression, will be unreliable, vulnerable to frustrations, and heavily dependent on the mood or feeling of the moment. The borderline lover will have trouble sustaining relationships because the loved one will be seen as two entities, one rewarding and satisfying, the other withholding and frustrating.
There may be no continuity in the way the borderline views his partner. It shifts moment to moment and is either totally good or totally bad. In any event, the lover is never perceived as a complex, richly ambiguous person embodying faults and virtues simultaneously. Consequently, the borderline becomes a kind of "fair weather" lover whose emotional investment in the partner will wane in times of disagreement or when tempers flare."

I've a horrible feeling that you've got it all worked out and I've a lot of pain ahead of me. I have to say that as painful as your last post was to read, I do see what you mean about the pain being because of the detaching from the wound. It's a blow to one's ego and feelings, but it also ripped a little bit of my attachment to her off, as I'm now contemplating thoughts too painful to bear before.

[once removed]

in response to your first post:

PB, youre a very interesting guy. a man that feels and thinks on a deep level. a man with a strong sense of right and wrong, justice and unfairness. a man with a lot of love to give. these are likely things that your ex found very attractive, and past partners did too; rightfully so, its the stuff of a good man.

at the same time, you are very sensitive to perceived rejection and criticism, and quick to lash out defensively when you feel threatened by either. this is a wound that existed before her. it is a wound that likely drew you to her, and her to you. it is a wound that played a role in your relationship, colors how you see the way it played out and ended, colors the way you see yourself in relation to her and others, and it is a big part of why youre struggling now.

you have spent a lot of these four months trying to soothe a deep rejection/ego wound with comforting theories and painting her black. i can understand why - i did those things too.

im trying to break through that and reach you, as others did for me. if it hurts, i encourage you to reflect, not react. the most challenging aspects of recovery are manifestations of our deepest wounds and fears. but they can be conquered, and the reward is great.

2010’s position

this was 2010s last post here:

Many BPD partners are also suffering from immaturity. They also have developmental deficits in their thinking, and they project these onto the unknowing Borderline in order to cast off their own shame and utilize the defects of the Borderline as their combination mirroring agent and marketeer for their false self.

When the false self fails from imperfect mirroring; a huge narcissistic injury ensues.

There is no devaluation and discard from the Borderline. There is only a detachment and protection from the failure to become the perfect mirroring agent to a person who NEEDS perfect mirroring.

This isn't a discard and devaluation- this is an extreme valuation that once temporarily soothed the developmental deficit and need for value. Sometimes, for both parties. One person is doing the necessary stepping back to detach and protect, and yes it involves hurt and mistrust.

Considering yourself to be above average in attractiveness, a "catch" and a somatic is something that pivots on reactions from mirrors. Using a person to act as a mirror objectifies that person until they become exhausted with feelings of bondage and slavery.

The subsequent retreat from this is not a devaluation, but rather a self fulfilling prophecy, that comes from selling themselves out to be used and the failure of individuation. Never to have the safety and security of being loved for who they are because they haven't found themselves in development. It is a repetition compulsion.

Borderlines often pick partners who do this because it proves their self-defeating actions.

this was her third most recent post:

SHE became a mirror of YOUR false self, the person YOU wanted to believe she is.

In the beginning SHE validated YOUR "false self" and she successfully hid reality from you.

When YOUR mask starts to crack HER mirror also starts to crack, exposing parts of YOUR TRUE self that YOU are desperately trying to hide.

When YOUR mask finally shatters it is JUST BEGINNING

YOUR mirror has gone dark and all YOU see is the darkness within YOURSELF.

You no longer see only YOUR good side but also YOUR dark side ... .SHE IS no longer a source of validation, a mirror for the good.

SHE has become an exceptionally painful reminder of what YOU are trying to hide from.

2010, like the rest of us, was a member who went through it - not an expert on BPD, but someone who learned from the experts (james masterson especially) and applied what she learned as she learned (and evolved over time), who spoke at great length about the role we play, the wounds within us, the valuable lessons we can learn, and the ways that they can free us from our wounds. it was a powerful message (if overly pathological at times) that connected because members could see themselves in it and it rang true, even when what it revealed was painful. she is also a self professed narcissist, who operated on the notion that most if not all of us have a certain level of pathological narcissism. if you are going to graduate from the 2010 school of thought, you cant ignore those lessons.

you can, if you prefer, put them off to the side for now. it took me a few years, and a few more tries at love, failure, and reopened wounds; i joined the school of human nature.

PS. Radical Acceptance is not about forgiving our exes. it is the philosophy of "it is what it is".

in response to your second post:

you are also often relatively quick to bounce back from a blow, put your head down, and focus; that will serve you. there are reasons that this breakup is different, and sticks with you. digging into that will ultimately, increasingly, render rejection a very weak force against you and the wholeness, peace, wisdom, resilience, and increased capacity for love you gain.

I've a horrible feeling that you've got it all worked out

i dont. i have ideas and interpretations based on what you have told me, from trying to put myself in both your shoes and hers, and from what i have learned here about how relationships evolve and breakdown. ultimately, you are in a far better position than anyone to work it all out, you were there, it happened to you. we, as objective outsiders with your best interests at heart, can help you to do that.

I do see what you mean about the pain being because of the detaching from the wound. It's a blow to one's ego and feelings, but it also ripped a little bit of my attachment to her off

detaching from the wounds, over time, is what brings clarity to "what happened". its a process - the five stages of detachment. some never get past the first, they just let time dull the pain and bring the baggage into the next relationship. life and love can be so much more rewarding.

my ex grew very distant from me right before we broke up, seemingly over night - from my perspective, everything was going really well and we were on an upswing. it was a very amicable breakup, too. when i signaled that i accepted it (i removed my relationship status on facebook), she turned really vindictive, and out came the guy shed been lining up, where she started publicly flirting with him, using elements of our relationship (things we loved) to appeal to him. everything hadnt been going really well...not for at least a year. i had emotionally abandoned the relationship and neglected her because i couldnt cope with the relationship, and because i didnt have the strength to end it, and neither did she. we both took the cowards way out. yes we were on an upswing, because the person doing the breakup, while they have grieved it to an extent, may still have doubts and second thoughts, but it was too little, too late. people very gently tried to point this out to me (in fact they warned me at the time). it would send me into a tailspin and cause me to ruminate for hours and hours on end and then i would beg those same people to reassure me and tell me what i wanted to hear. i needed to believe that BPD explained everything, that there was nothing i could have done, and i was also afraid that if she had any legitimate reason to break up with me (which would not at all excuse how she went about it) that it meant she wouldnt return to me.

today, that, and the rest of the breakdown of the relationship is very easy to see and theres no pain associated, no more than say, looking back at a middle school or high school relationship. the only difference is that i can continue to learn lessons from it to this day. recovery, real recovery, requires work, vulnerability, and a certain amount of faith in the process. today i see that we were just two wounded people who came together, loved each other to the best of our ability, said and did some dysfunctional things and caused each other a lot of pain, also did a lot of things right, but in the end, couldnt make it work and werent meant to be - that last idea, that sometimes two people can love each other very much and still not make it work, that relationships and good things end, was once a source of great pain to me; its still sad, but something i learned to cope with and accept. and yes, my ex has significant BPD traits that made her a very difficult partner (i imagine they still do), and knowing that partly informs my understanding of how my relationship transpired. so too does examining my own traits - of codependency, of narcissism, my emotional immaturity, my insecure attachment style, my own fear of abandonment and rejection, my need to be mirrored, feel superior, and believe that my ex was incapable of leaving, in order to stave off those fears. mostly though, those are all just particular pieces of human nature.

(I should be paying you for this)

pay it forward. help others in their recovery - it will feel good and make you a part of something bigger than yourself, but it will also give you insight into your own. join the threads that explore our relationships on deeper and more challenging levels. this place was not only the most important thing to my recovery, but it also teaches me skills for life. the more you put into it, the more youll gain. its why im still here.

I'm now contemplating thoughts too painful to bear before.

dont over do it - really. if any part of this is too much, say the word, know your limits. when we break a leg, we need crutches. we want to lose them as soon as possible, but it would be foolish to immediately start walking or running.

at the same time, trust the process. you will survive - you already have.

[PretentiousBread]

The pain I'm sitting in right at this moment is something I've been desperately avoiding. I've kept notes of all the things that excuse me or prop up my ego, and would refer to them any time that empty void feeling was taking hold.

I can't refute what you've observed. I am admittedly sensitive, and for as long as I can remember have struggled to take any sort of joke that's at my expense. A little backstory as to the crux of why I've been so deeply affected by her breaking up with me:

I was in an extremely safe, but boring and relationship for most of my 20's, I ended it when I could no longer continue to sleep walk through life. I came out of it extremely out of shape, overweight, living back with my parents and still in the job that I hated. I started to lose weight, and slowly became preoccupied, then obsessed with my appearance and desirability to the opposite sex. It was extremely validating, and very life changing witnessing the difference in people's treatment of me when I looked so presentable. I got back into drumming, joined a band, found a new social circle, really reinvented myself, was becoming the outward appearance of the person I wanted to be.

But I was extremely insecure about my appearance, I would use Tinder as a gauge of my attractiveness and used it purely for the validation, with pretty much zero intent of meeting anyone on it. I was just enjoying the novelty of the validation my new appearance was constantly giving me.

However, I felt that my core values, depth, integrity etc. were things that if I were to meet someone, would attract them if only they were physically attracted to me in the first place.

The new image I'd cultivated for myself was just an image, and avatar of who I am. Underneath was a very shy, reserved and insecure man who looked the part but didn't know how to act it.

My ex's interest and pursuit of me was the ultimate validation of who I was/who I was pretending to be - she was the most attractive woman in the company, yet she was fixated by me, saying she was always aware of my presence in the office, always sensing where I was, and as she got to know me when things were going well, she seemed to be falling in love with the real me underneath the exterior. I told her that line about my appearance only feeling like an avatar of me, that was when she told me that she always felt she was different, and that I was only the second person she'd admitted that to, after the father of her children.

I'll never forget the rush of excitement I felt when she expressed an interest in joining my band, rumours had been circulating that she liked me, I sensed it too but when it became obvious to me, I felt like finally I was being appreciated by someone who I was equally in admiration of. The day we made it official and slept together for the first time, I was completely full of confidence, felt at ease with who I was; I had a beautiful girlfriend who understood me and shared my values and interests. She essentially was a panacea for all my feelings of inadequacy and insecurity about my value to others.

To have this ripped away in the fashion it was, is why I've been so decimated by it. My self esteem hinged directly on her valuation of me, so long as this gorgeous, wonderful and like-minded girl wanted ME, then I felt good about myself.

I've not at all felt right as a person since this breakup, I think it goes beyond the ordinary breakup heartache, as it's so intrinsically linked to my ego. I used to go to the gym 4x per week, be really dedicated with my diet etc. now my raison d'etre seems to be missing - the purpose of all this effort was to feel attractive, and therefore validated for who I was, yet the ultimate source of that validation has gone and rejected who I am. I'm left with a deep lack of meaning in my life, 33, no kids, very few friends as my depression has made me mostly withdrawn.

I started a new job yesterday, potential to meet lots of people, yet my mind and heart is stuck on this girl, I sit through training with a sinking feeling inside, and I feel like no amount of praise or adulation from ANYONE other than her will correct for this awful feeling. The ego preservation to date has been a coping mechanism to obtain some sort of a relief from this. Yet I sat in traffic on the way home after reading your post, no music or radio or podcasts to distract me, just alone with my thoughts and a feeling like no other, like there's a black hole in my gut.

I've dabbled with drugs, Phenibut, amphetamine - anything to take away this feeling, only for it to then magnify on a comedown or withdrawal. Life is utter torture for me now, and deluding myself with comforting thoughts of my importance to her has been pretty much the only way I can tolerate existence from moment to moment. If I go too long without a reassuring thought, the emptiness is felt again, the pointlessness of things. Recently I started on Sertraline which seems to block certain feelings from fully enveloping me, and gives me slightly more detachment. If anything I'm seeing my own pain more clearly now, yet the psychological damage remains, and I've no idea how to fix it.

I hear everything you're saying, I just don't want to believe that there's a drawn out process to recovery from this relationship. I wanted a magic bullet bit of information from all this that would make me feel a lot better about myself. I'm caught between wanting to detach yet finding the pain of doing so to be so debilitating that you'd be crazy to be doing this if it isn't strictly necessary.

[ColdKnight]

Just finished reading your entire thread. So many similarities to my situation right down to the Corey Wayne advice and your last post. It’s late and I need to get some sleep but would like to hear more and share some of my story if you are interested. For me knowing I am not alone and hearing other peoples stories really helps.

EDIT:
Just to add some perspective. On my second go round I was 99 % sure, (100% now) she was
upwBPD and I still couldn’t make it work. I had a year to research and had so much conflicting information in my head that none of it mattered.
She’s been gone since July 24th

[once removed]

the ultimate source of that validation has gone and rejected who I am

it feels that way, doesnt it?

that this person got so close to us, saw our deepest flaws and insecurities, seemed to love us for them, and then said "no thanks".

and it feels like the ultimate confirmation of the preexisting fear that something deep down within us is unloveable, or broken, or bad (tragically, the lesson often taken is that one has to try even harder to hide that thing).

its nonsense, of course.

rejection is a part of life. bugs and animals do it to each other all the time. imagine if you will, the male bird that performs a mating dance (id be in big trouble if humans had to do such a thing) for a female bird, gets rejected, and then she mates with another bird right in front of him. ouch. but it doesnt mean theres something inherently wrong with the male bird. its nature.

One of Corey Wayne's justifications for these 'gaming' tactics (it's not really game though by traditional standards) is that it 'weeds out' insecure women so that you save yourself the trouble later on.
...
she was the one with the intimacy/trust issues (self admitted), not me

if youre using gaming tactics, and hot and cold strategies, i might reexamine that last bit.

to fear rejection is to fear vulnerability. the ability to be vulnerable is how we establish intimacy. to fear rejection is to fear intimacy. it didnt make sense to me for the longest time, because a person can also fear what they long for the most, in the same way a person with crippling social anxiety often most desperately wants friends.

the best strategy when it comes to "mating" with an emotionally healthy other, is authenticity. its our authentic self, that is ultimately the best, most attractive version of our self.

people with a deep fear of rejection are ultimately hiding who they really are, with any myriad of ways. for example, one way might be to find fault in others, something to preemptively reject them for. another way might be to be the person they think another person wants them to be. there are lots of ways, but ultimately, the self they present isnt authentic. the real, best version of themselves is hidden.

what does all of this have to do with you and your ex?

people with bpd traits also fear rejection and intimacy. paradoxically, they also crave love and intimacy and acceptance, deeply.

something happens when two people with these deep fears and dreams meet. a powerful bond is formed, and it can feel like coming home, like youve met your soulmate. its called intensity. intensity, that instant chemistry, is often mistaken for intimacy. as a result, that bond is tested. theres a whole lot of sharing from both parties. theres a lot of acceptance and validation.

but intimacy is something that, along with trust, is built slowly and over time. intensity is a fantasy. it wears off. and that bond is still subject to the laws of gravity, the things that make or break all relationships.

she didnt reject who you are any more than she made you who you are.  

dude, you want some reassurance? the fact that you can see this stuff, sit with it, face it, in spite of the pain, tells me that you are going to be just fine. its going to take some work. its going to take some learning and unlearning. the thing about this is once you see it, you cant unsee it. the old ways, that in some cases have worked before, will only bring diminishing returns. but im confident that if you dig in, you will find freedom, authenticity, and love. thats really what recovery is: learning to self differentiate, learning to be ourselves. learning to see ourselves more objectively. learning to see others more objectively. learning to make better choices. people will still reject you. its a part of life. its just a part youll face with a great deal more resiliency.

The pain I'm sitting in right at this moment is something I've been desperately avoiding.

2010 and Susan Anderson refer to this as abandonment depression (it may be a number of things). we first experience abandonment depression as toddlers, when we individuate from our primary caretakers, and discover that we are a separate entity. as a result, we are ultimately able to become whole individuals.

thats a fancy of saying that putting off the pain prolongs it, the way out is through, and wholeness is on the other side.

psychology aside, my heart goes out to you. theres a lot there that i can relate to. im a highly sensitive person and objectively far too introspective. ive struggled with weight, and with confidence, and with drug abuse. i had what they call the "nice guy issues" in high school. a friend finally told me what girls are most attracted to is confidence. started getting girlfriends. i always took breakups badly...really badly. im not one who calls these relationships a "gift". theres nothing about it that feels like a gift, and if it were, we should all do it over again and again. but in a lot of ways, emerging from that breakup saved me, and its one of my proudest accomplishments even today. it will be for you too.

and by the way, i worry about it too, believe me, but life is not over in your early 30s, and there are still lots of hot, smart, fun, passionate, good women out there.

I was in an extremely safe, but boring and relationship for most of my 20's,

i would really encourage you to explore this at greater length here.

started a new job yesterday

how is it going?

I've dabbled with drugs

you want some advice? drop the drugs. go to your nearest herb store and get you some SAM-E (dont get it at walmart). its a natural antidepressant. it will give you a sense of well being, and it will make all of this feel so much smaller in your head. it was a total godsend for me.

after that? go find the therapist you met with that told you that this is about you, and start talking.

[once removed]

how you holding up PB?

[once removed]

how are you doing? any update?