New to this board

[Carguy]

Hey guys! This is the first time I posted on this board. For quite a while I have been on the betterment board.

A brief rundown of my history with my ex BPD:

I met her 15 years ago after my separation from my ex-wife. We dated for a couple of months and left on good terms. Through the years we would run into each other from time to time and remained friends. Four years ago we ran into each other and started dating again. At first it was wonderful but the last two to three years have been a struggle with each cycle getting worse. We have recycled several times. I'm not even sure how many times. Last November after being pushed away again she told me to go live my life so I went on a few dates with another girl. She was very angry when she ran into us together at Thanksgiving. Since then she has been very cold to me with the occasional 180 and being nice. She even apologize to me in February when I told her I was going no contact. She reversed a few days later.

In March I had her remove all her possessions from my property and since then she has been completely cold. When I would go shopping in Walmart where she works she would ignore me and look away and if I said anything to her she would become angry at me.

On the advice of my therapist I am now shopping elsewhere and staying away from anywhere that I might run into her while I work on myself and heal.

One question I have for this group. In February she did a 180 right before Valentine's Day and I bought her flowers and she was so excited she kept giving me hugs like she could get enough and it meant a lot to her. She 180 days later. After I had her remove her stuff from my property in March and she became so cold, in April she sent my teenage son a friend request on Facebook. I know they had a close relationship but I found that a little odd.

A couple of times she's done a few thing that I seemed out of character almost like she is trying to stay in my view.

A few weeks ago when my ex-wife was leaving Walmart she said bye to my ex-wife (my ex-wife and I are good friends) and my ex ignored her. She said bye again and my ex still didn't say anything. The third time she actually called out my ex-wife's name. I find that very strange. For the four years that we were together she never built a connection to my ex-wife. She was always kind of cold and would keep distance from my ex-wife and look away or look down. My ex-wife would be the one that would have to start any conversation. It made my ex-wife uncomfortable.

A therapist I talk to online that specializes in BPD and NPD says that she is trying to have a connection to me. She is also still friends with some of my family on Facebook and wishes them happy birthdays and likes their stuff at times. A few of them she only met once.

Have any of you experienced things like this where your ex BPD is very cold and angry towards you but still tries to maintain some sort of connection to you? With these strange little things does that sound like she might eventually attempt to recycle?

I know right now I still need to keep a distance and remain N/C because I know I'm not  strong enough or recovered enough and that I could possibly get sucked back in.

[Rev]

Have any of you experienced things like this where your ex BPD is very cold and angry towards you but still tries to maintain some sort of connection to you? With these strange little things does that sound like she might eventually attempt to recycle?

I know right now I still need to keep a distance and remain N/C because I know I'm not  strong enough or recovered enough and that I could possibly get sucked back in.

Hello there,

The short answer to your question is - yes!

The attempts became more feeble as time went on - and the more distance I got from them, the more her disorder became clear to me.

So for me, time - coupled with some pretty intense therapy/mentorship - was a real ally.

Stay strong.

Rev

[Carguy]

Thanks Rev!

To me they may not be direct attempts to maintain a connection but they are quite out of character for her and surprising to me when they happened. That's when I start questioning.

I asked the therapist that I speak to online about this and she explained that their biggest fear is abandonment so they would rather have a messed up, dysfunctional connection then no connection at all.

To me it seems like these attempts don't happen often, maybe once a month to once every couple of months, but until a month ago she would see me more frequently in Walmart. She has not seen me at all since the end of May. It was mentioned on the other board and makes me wonder if by staying away from her and her not seeing me might cause the attempts to become more frequent and desperate.

Right now there is still a huge part of me that misses her and Longs for her but the logical part of my mind knows that I need to stay away and heal myself. I have been learning a lot through therapy and reading and I have came a long ways. I still have a long ways to go but I'm making progress.

My therapist and I discussed what I would do if she did come back into my life down the road. I have seen her buying books and going to retreats and doing a lot of things trying to figure out what is wrong with herself. She hasn't been diagnosed but my therapist told me to read up on BPD and all the reading I've done over the last several months fit her to a tee. I asked my therapist if she came back around how would I encourage her to seek help before we could become friends. He told me to ask her directly who her therapist is and how I get clearance to talk to the therapist. He said if she is working on her disorder she will likely tell me but if she gets defensive or something then she is likely still deep in her disorder.

[Rev]

I asked my therapist if she came back around how would I encourage her to seek help before we could become friends. He told me to ask her directly who her therapist is and how I get clearance to talk to the therapist. He said if she is working on her disorder she will likely tell me but if she gets defensive or something then she is likely still deep in her disorder.

I think that your T is right on the money. A thing for us to remember that personality disorders are not conditions - like say dyslexia - I have dyslexia - it will never really improve - I need to learn how to deal with it - which makes it manageable but not treatable. 

With a disorder, someone needs to move from management to actual treatment. Otherwise what happens is it comes back with a vengeance.  So back to dyslexia - it wont get better, but it wont get worse either. It is what it is. A disorder can deepen. It's on a spectrum that moves.   It is predicated on protecting a core wound and because it causes an empathy gap, the behavior change you are witnessing sounds to me as something known as mirroring - literally observing you and mirroring back to you what she thinks will work to connect. A personality disorder is characterized be an inability to really connect with one's self internally.  Really understand what one believes for oneself, why they believe it, and... how their life reflects those beliefs over the long haul.

So the therapists strategy will cut to the core wound. It will tell you the truth - I would suggest that you listen to her on a gut level - watch her eyes more than listen to the words - for example.

Let me know how it goes.

Rev

[getout2020]

Have any of you experienced things like this where your ex BPD is very cold and angry towards you but still tries to maintain some sort of connection to you? With these strange little things does that sound like she might eventually attempt to recycle?

I know right now I still need to keep a distance and remain N/C because I know I'm not  strong enough or recovered enough and that I could possibly get sucked back in.

Hey Carguy,

My recent ex has a practice I call "pinging." It's like she sends out these signals through backchannels to summon my response - only to use any response I might make against me. We just broke up around New Year's, but lived together in a business/hostel we had built together for another two months as I tried to salvage that project before I finally realized the abuse had just changed form and was, in fact, getting worse.

We had been together four years and were engaged, but when we broke up - within seven days - she had a new boyfriend (despite us still living and working together.) This was all made very obvious to me and was quite deliberate, of course. I'm also learning it's quite common.

Anyway, since I left El Salvador and was forced to return to the US (March 1), she has several times tried to follow my childhood friends on different social media; people she never met and never knew, but who have rallied around me since our breakup. They invariably tell me and then I faithfully reach out to her to see if her resentment since I "abandoned" her has abated and maybe we can talk about our shared business and better navigate the post-breakup environment.

But it's always a lie. She gaslights me (all of these signals are not signals), accuses me of "being obsessed" and "crazy," and flips the script into her victimhood. She does this about once a month now. Tries to follow my family members on their protected accounts - it gets back to me - I check in, she attacks. It's clearly some kind of game and I'm the perfect, codependent sucker, I guess. I keep falling for it. She wants my headspace and I keep giving it to her.

Most recently, this week I was summarily excluded from a business owner's group in our little town in El Salvador (I'm thousands of miles away and still trying to find a way to get something out of the business because I invested everything I had in it.) I know she must've said something to the admin. There's no reason they'd exclude me independently.

So I fished around (again, I'm a sucker) and saw this big, public post on Facebook about how she was "done blaming people" for "toxic relationships," was overjoyed and finally happy with her new boyfriend (the same guy and her new rescuer who she met 7 days after we broke up) and how she could finally share pictures of herself in a bikini (the implication clearly being that I had conspired to bodyshame her or otherwise undermined her self-image.) We are both mutually blocked on pretty much everything, so that she made this intentionally public seems pretty clear that it was an attempt to rattle my cage. And that it was timed with my exclusion from a business owner's group seemed too much to be a coincidence. She knows me. She knows what pushes my buttons (at this point, the business is all I are about. I've made that pretty clear for six months.) But then I feel like I'm reading too much into things. That I'm the crazy one. And she got me again.

Anyway, I don't know if there's a more accurate/preferred clinical term (she also isn't diagnosed; she thinks suggestions of therapy are "abusive") than "pinging," but my ex definitely does this, too. In my experience, it is (as your therapist says) an attempt to stay connected - if only to measure how much *you* are still connected to them.

If you feel you aren't ready and need to keep distance, you know yourself best. But your observations certainly are relatable. The phenomenon you're describing is definitely a thing - at least in my experience. And not a good one.

Solidarity.

[Carguy]

Rev,

from what this online therapist tells me, you are correct. The way she explains it on her videos is that it's all on a Spectrum. Without treatment they can move further and further into malignancy. From what she has described and what I have witnessed I believe mine is in the beginning stages of the queen. The way she describes it is the more into malignancy they moved the more you will see traits of all 10 personality disorders. I believe I have witnessed almost all of them at one point or another. Some only once or twice and others on a regular basis. The ones I have noticed the most are paranoia and narcissism. From what this therapist says, the further into malignancy they move the less likely they will seek treatment or progress in treatment. The therapist also says that the more malignant ones are not suicidal or self harming because of the narcissism. She has no suicidal ideation or self harming thoughts.

I truly hope she gets the help she needs and down the road if he reaches out to me and is willing I will support her in her helping herself. Until then I need to do me.

Getout,

I like that term "pinging." That is actually a very good description. From what you described, that seems to be what is happening here. She ignores me in public but I have caught her looking at me a few times. And the times that she tried to friend my son on facebook, done obvioud things out of character to make it seem like she was trying to stay in my field of view, or even recently trying to say bye to my ex whom she's never had a connection to really makes me feel like this is exactly what she's doing.

One time when she was working in the at Wal-Mart pharmacy I seen her looking at me so I looked her right in the eyes and she held the stare for a few seconds until I gave a little wave and then she looked away.

After she sent my son a friend request on Facebook I went through the self checkout and She was running it. I told her that if she ever got to a point she would like to talk I would like that and before I even got that sentence out she told me three times quickly and in an annoyed manner "No I'm good!"

 When I had her remove her stuff from my property,  there were also a couple of kitties that I kept for her that one of my mama kitties had. I asked her about them and she said she had nowhere for them so I would have to keep them. I was never quite clear on if she thought I should keep them until she could take them or if I should take ownership of them again. After telling her that in the self-checkout another time she was counting people as they came in and when I left I told her if she ever wanted her kitties, let me know. She got angry and told me "I told you I didn't want them!" I just told her "Okay, okay" and left. Since then I have stayed out of Walmart and completely away from her. I was just trying to reach out with an olive branch. It has not served well so I think the best thing is to stay away for now.

 Her reaching out to my ex-wife was only two weeks ago. When things like that happen I get the feeling that she is feeling things out with me. "Pinging" like you said. When I respond by trying to reach out to her, I think it gives her the satisfaction of knowing that she still has me under her thumb. It makes me wonder if my staying away and her not seeing me let alone getting some sort of response won't drive her to try harder or for attempts to get more obvious.

[Carguy]

Rev,

I had another thought on what you said. You mentioned her observing me and mirroring what she thinks will work to keep a connection. A thought I had is in the past, every time we split up, I was the one always reaching out. She rarely reached out. It makes me wonder if she feels like her rejecting me will drive me to keep reaching out. Thus keeping a connection and in her mind, control over me (since I'm the one pursuing). After all, it has been that way in the past.

[Rev]

Rev,

I had another thought on what you said. You mentioned her observing me and mirroring what she thinks will work to keep a connection. A thought I had is in the past, every time we split up, I was the one always reaching out. She rarely reached out. It makes me wonder if she feels like her rejecting me will drive me to keep reaching out. Thus keeping a connection and in her mind, control over me (since I'm the one pursuing). After all, it has been that way in the past.

Totally plausible ... silent treatment, for example, is very effective. Horses use shunning to change behavior, for example. But the minute the rejection sends you in a different way, watch and see if she doesn't change.

Dealing with this takes time, because there are not a lot of genuine emotions discharged by a person with a disorder. They are far more in the realm of immediate reactions.  If I were to ask you if your gf existed in a world of feelings based facts, how does that resonate with you?

Rev

[Carguy]

It's funny that you mention silent treatment and changing behaviour. For years now when we had issues she would give me the silent treatment. I would always be the one having to reach out so we could resume communication. She would tell me often that she wasn't going to put up with the behaviour.

In a way I kind of did see it change for a brief period. Back in February she did that 180 when I told her for the first time and I was going no contact. She apologized and told me she realized she wasn't having empathy with the things I was saying and told me I could send her that open-hearted text that I had asked if I could send a few weeks earlier (She never responded to it until this point.)  She said she was proud that I was working on myself and she said she was proud of us for working on ourselves and all sorts of positive things. That was the first time I had heard her apologize in probably 2 years or so. It was pointed out that the reason I got a different response is because I did things different.

That actually resonates with me quite a bit. I have read that borderlines believe emotion is fact and they feel emotions so much more intensely than others. I know that she is a very emotional person and feels things very deeply. She has even told me that. I have seen those 'emotion truths' with her.

[Rev]

That actually resonates with me quite a bit. I have read that borderlines believe emotion is fact and they feel emotions so much more intensely than others. I know that she is a very emotional person and feels things very deeply. She has even told me that. I have seen those 'emotion truths' with her.

Some personality disorders - depending on why they are disordered and where they are on the spectrum can lead to delusion.  This we can think is their fantasy in them and all we need to do is to "speak rationally and bring them back to reality" but this is faulty thinking.

Think about the word - disorder - it's like a virus in a computer program that continually produces faulty results based on the data.  More data will not correct the virus.  So the question becomes - what is disordered in a person with BPD?

It is this:  Thoughts and emotions (which when they come together produce feelings and ultimately produce actions - even the decision to do "nothing" about a feeling is still an action) are not orderly.  Thoughts give their emotions their context and and emotions give thoughts their relevance.   In other words - when I have an emotion, I need to think about what it is trying to tell me, which is not always self evident. That can take time, an patience - something called "regulation" - just like a thermostat regulates the temperature.   Emotions - well they tell us we need to care about stuff. We are after all not Mr. Spock or Androids. Without emotion there is no capacity for empathy.  

So that is why people with BPD call "feel bigger" - although I don't like that term - because frankly - I feel big too - I just don't pop off just because I feel a lot.

Hope this adds to your clarity. I appreciate the chance to exchange with you because I am at the stage where I am really making sense of what happened in my own relationship - which was rather abusive and dysfunctional.

Have a great day.

Rev

[Carguy]

Thanks Rev! I truly appreciate you sharing your knowledge and views on this! It has helped a lot! The more I learn and understand, the more it helps me.

 I too am starting to understand things more with her and I and our relationship.

 I have seen some delusional thinking from her at times. There were times the disorder was very apparent.

At times when her emotions became dysregulated I could sooth her to a point and help bring her back down. Other times I could not. I learned however that even though I could sometimes bring her back down, I could not fix her. Sadly she might be this way the rest of her life.

For now I have to stay completely away and work on myself and my healing. I have to wonder if there will be more surprising actions from her and what the next one will be though.