New here - hoping for some perspective

[Vykyng]

Hello all,

The title says it all. I'm hoping to meet some people with shared experiences to help me with good strategies to help my BPD spouse, but also some self-help so I can get out of my own head.

Over a 13+ year marriage with 2 awesome kids the behavior issues with my spouse have simply worsened. I've only been able to label my spouses' problems as related to BPD and to start understanding them after I started attending therapy (ironic!), which brings me here.

I admit that I'm still partially skeptical about 'diagnosing' my spouse with BPD despite what my family, friends and therapist have told me... but I think that is my fears talking. I've experienced many of the classic scenarios and feelings I've read about, and it scares me that I didn't realize the serious issues sooner and subsequently fell into all the traps. I'm worried about our relationship, but recently (and finally!) I'm more worried about the effect this behavior is having on me and my kids.

Hoping for a safe space to talk and feel validated and not so isolated.
V

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

hi Vykyng, and

it is good to have a framework that can help us better understand some of the hurtful and confusing behavior we experience with our loved ones. experts will tell you that a strong support system is critical.

i found this place after my relationship ended, but it was my lifeline.

the good news is that the tools here work with anyone, but there can be a learning curve. the most important thing to me, particularly when it comes to the communication tools, is authenticity and sincerity...using them within the context of your relationship. its not as easy as it sounds at first, and it can be awkward, but you can practice them with anyone.

what are some of the issues youve experienced that have worsened? when did they begin?

[Vykyng]

Hi OR,

Thank you for the reply and the warm welcome!
The biggest issues I am dealing with are related to verbal/emotional abuse, isolation, parental alienation, and gas-lighting.
The verbal and emotional abuse has been ongoing but has intensified over the past 2-3 years. It is cutting and cruel. There's recognition that the words are hurtful, but rather than remorse there is justification that they were deserved. To be clear, my BPD SO has never once apologized to me for things she has said that I have pointed out have been hurtful. More recently as I have pushed back more, she spits back that my being upset at her verbal abuse are just my abnormal emotional issues. The worst part is that she does it in front of our children, even using vulgarity. When I point that out, she again says "then stop being a ______."
The gas-lighting is really concerning because she manipulates the details of events in our lives to suit her mental framework, and continues to recount her versions of these events during fights. She persists in trying to get me to validate her version and thereby admit my fault, and unwittingly I have done so in some cases just to make it stop (I realize how wrong this was to do now). The most recent example was very troubling however, and has opened my eyes wide. We got into a very bad argument over her attempts to alienate me from the children, and when I wouldn't accept that and told her that it was not her right to do so, she flew into a fit of rage put her hands around my neck and pushed me out of the house yelling "I hate you!" Our kids saw the whole thing. I stayed (we can get into that more later), but months later, as recently as this weekend, she recounted that incident as self-defense because she claims I "charged at her" when nothing could be further from the truth. I called her out and told her she was a liar, but this brings me to the next big issue...
The isolation has been very difficult. She gets very anxious and angry at the slightest suggestion that the issues in our marriage have escaped the four walls of our home. Because of this, I've had to pretend things were fine in front of her parents and our friends even in the wake of arguments. My attempts to vent my frustration have caused fights because she reads my private text messages to my family and friends, and then makes me feel guilty for "telling lies" about her to people she has to potentially interact with in the future. This isolation includes from her. She refuses to discuss our relationship issues at all, complaining very loudly that all I want to do is talk about myself, and then shuts the discussion down and walks away. I addition, intimacy has been solely on her schedule and used in a carrot/stick manner to elicit what she wants, but she then blames me for acting in a way that doesn't make her attracted to me. Until she is for whatever reason.
Its all worn me down wondering for too many years what I have been doing wrong, what was wrong with me, and fearing I wasn't a good husband, father, or person. My epiphany on the fact that I'm just a foil for her anxieties and fears about her own insufficiencies has come after I finally read Stop Walking on Eggshells two weeks ago after avoiding it (despite my therapist's recommendation to read it) because I think I was too afraid to see the truth. Now I am at a crossroads... put my foot down and deal with the consequences of that, or retract and avoid the pain and fear of possibly breaking up my family. When people say they have been told the impact of living with a BPD SO is like PTSD, I firmly believe it.
Ultimately, I'm looking for tools to help me cope and also to get this relationship and my BPD SO the help they both need. Either way, I know I need a change in my life.

[once removed]

the person you love is always going to be a very difficult person, in the best case scenario.

its important to know that, to go into this choice to stay with eyes wide open.

its likewise important to define what can realistically improve, and what cannot. from there, you can prioritize.

for example, verbal abuse in your relationship may always have some presence. how much that can improve is difficult to say...i think its something we have virtually all experienced, to varying degrees. ive seen enormous improvement in my time here. ive also seen things deteriorate. it ultimately depends upon your limits (informed by your values and your boundaries) and hers. it will be good to get in better touch with those things here.

in terms of prioritizing, it would seem like having this take place in front of the kids would be the priority, the thing you want to work to nip in the bud. physical abuse in front of them is an obvious escalation.

ill be frank. the picture you paint is not one of a partner where it seems like any of this will be easy, but there is hope, and youre just getting started sharing.

Now I am at a crossroads... put my foot down and deal with the consequences of that, or retract and avoid the pain and fear of possibly breaking up my family.

you arent wrong. as i said, it is vital to realistically assess the relationship and its room for improvement, and im a firm believer that one should have deal breakers in a relationship. having said that, i would urge caution in trying to affect too much change too soon, or that the choices are black and white. things didnt get here over night, and neither will they improve over night. improvement, if and when possible, requires a lot of trial and error, a lot of work, and consistency over time, and the truth is, it often gets worse before it gets better, in the process. but theres a key difference between putting your foot down and dealing with the consequences (virtually guaranteed to protract the conflict), and breaking the conflict down (if possible) into bite sized pieces, having a strategy for the best possible outcome.

so we can better understand how to proceed, i would ask:

1. when would you say the major trouble(s) started in your marriage
2. what, if anything, has worked for you in the past
3. can you give us an example (the more recent the better) of a major conflict, and more detail on how you handled it? the more back and forth, he said/she said the better. we can see if theres anything in your approach that could be better received.

[Vykyng]

Thank you again OR, and great points to consider.

its important to know that, to go into this choice to stay with eyes wide open.

its likewise important to define what can realistically improve, and what cannot. from there, you can prioritize.

ill be frank. the picture you paint is not one of a partner where it seems like any of this will be easy, but there is hope, and youre just getting started sharing.

I have yet to face the reality of how hard it will be, and not knowing worries me because my emotions are already raw from so many years of abuse and I wonder if I can find the strength I'll need. She's very smart and spectacular at manipulation... its almost a super-power. I'm also worried about my support structure - after years of isolation I've reached out to friends and family, and they've all told me to cut my losses but it's hard to hear them through the FOG. I worry that they will tire of the endless cycle of my need for support, and I know that is a symptom of the isolation. But it is refreshing to know there is hope.

so we can better understand how to proceed, i would ask:

1. when would you say the major trouble(s) started in your marriage

1. the MAJOR trouble started after the birth of our second child about seven years ago, and has snowballed since. I'm fairly certain my wife had undiagnosed post-partum depression which was could have been exacerbated by the fact that I started a new job around that time which required extensive travel including internationally which took me away from home a lot. In hindsight I believe this stoked unrealistic abandonment issues especially since she was home taking care of our kids, but I'm not an expert and didn't have a clue what was going on in the moment... it just seemed like random aggressive anger and hatred when in my mind I was killing myself working hard to improve life for my family. I would fight back and then apologize and take blame for making her angry over and over until this finally reached a crescendo in the past two years. While I know now that I was not to blame for her anxiety and black & white thinking, I also regret how blind I was to the issues and how I perpetuated them as a result.
That said, the gas-lighting, "situational dyslexia", and remorselessness issues are really troubling and frankly scary and I don't know how to deal with them at all.

2. what, if anything, has worked for you in the past

2. I wish I could put my finger on that because I think it would make life easier! I think validation has worked, but I've taken it too far in the past by apologizing and taking blame instead of just leaving it at "I understand how you feel". It would be very helpful to learn some better dialogue tools where I don't JADE because I have done that over and over and I can definitely say that doesn't work, and when it doesn't I am left feeling unappreciated and disrespected.

3. can you give us an example (the more recent the better) of a major conflict, and more detail on how you handled it? the more back and forth, he said/she said the better. we can see if there's anything in your approach that could be better received.

3. The most recent example started two weeks ago. We sleep in separate rooms for several reasons related to my snoring and her behavior and reactions to having her sleep interrupted because sleep has always been a problem for her as long as I have known her. Consequently we keep our own sleep / wake schedule. It was a schoolday morning for our kids who have to be ready to go at 8:00am, and at 6:30am I noticed she wasn't awake yet and I had to get in the shower. She is usually awake at 6:30, but knowing how much trouble she generally has sleeping and how she flies into a real rage when she's awakened if she is sleeping, I assumed (hoped) she hit the snooze button for a few more minutes and got into the shower without waking her. When I got out at 7:00 I saw she was still asleep, so I went to wake her. Apparently she meant to set two alarms but somehow both of them failed to go off, and she started freaking out about being late because she had an appointment. I should explain that it takes her an extraordinarily long time for her to "get ready" for the day much of which is spent applying her makeup, and also that she has mild rheumatoid arthritis and needs time in the morning to manage her pain issues. I've observed that "being late" is something that really raises her anxiety, so that kicked in. When things still seemed under control, I told her that it sucked that her alarms didn't go off, and that I would do whatever I could to help her catch up as much as possible. As I went to make breakfast for my kids, she started yelling about the fact that I didn't wake her up, and that we had this problem before. We did, about two years ago which was also a big blow-up. Her rage increased, yelling through the house that I had brain damage because I wasn't able to remember my responsibility to wake her up on time if her alarms didn't go off which of course my kids could hear. I responded that I had to get in the shower by 6:30 to be able to help with the kids and keep my work schedule (I'm the only income earner), and I wasn't sure what time I was supposed to wake her so I didn't wake her up before I got in the shower. She started screaming that I was brain damaged and a liar. The yelling continued with her blaming me for arguing at which point I walked away saying "no, you are arguing with yourself". My  daughter asked her what was wrong while she was doing her hair for school, and she shared some choice words about me with her. After about an hour, I tried to reach out to defuse. I sent her a text saying that I recall the previous incident and the promise I made to wake her up on school mornings if she overslept, and that I apologized for not doing that to make sure she was up before I was out of pocket in the shower. I explained that I understood that I let her down for not being there to back her up, and asked for forgiveness. The text response I received back was appalling... stating that it was clear that I did understand that I was supposed to wake her up and why, and again that I was a awful example of a husband and father because I was lying to her and arguing about it in front of the kids. She closed by saying at least our daughter showed concern by asking her what was wrong, "but you and [our son] are "f***ed" (our son is 11 years old). I replied that her response was over the top and not appropriate, and she responded "no its not, you're a f***ing liar". I responded that there is no way a spouse should respond like that when I was truly apologizing, and she said I spent to whole morning lying to her in front of the kids. I responded that yelling at me and calling me names and a disgrace and bad example of a parent was leaving me without anything to say, and she responded "bull*** because now you have all the recollection of your promise and you are not going to manipulate the situation" and said my apology was an admission of lying and to shut up.
what did I do? I said yes, I recalled the promise and if you call that lying then let it be. I'm sorry, but I am really upset by the things you've said to me and if you're going to go there then we can't resolve issues together. That evening, she made dinner for the kids but none for me, shooing me away while the kids ate dinner (all while my daughter asked "why isn't daddy eating dinner with us?" to which she responded "because daddy is being awful"). The next morning I told her that I had real concerns about our relationship and communication, and that I was really reluctant to move ahead with the new house we had been discussing because of how disrespected and emotionally abused I feel, and that I would like to discuss it. I followed up with confirming the difficulty of the discussion and again asking for an adult conversation without arguing. She responded that my emotional problems have been holding her back for years and that it was my responsibility to get them under control and that I could not use the new house as something I could control and that I was hurting my family by causing us to miss out on an opportunity to have the perfect house and that I would not want to try to even recover from that.
I spent the weekend in a pretty upset mood and not wanting to engage with her, and on Sunday she finally complained to me about my "man-child" reaction and having to put up with my being immature because I was upset. This continued into another more minor dispute the other day about my daughter's math homework not being done to the exact method the teacher showed where she yelled at me for being arrogant for thinking I could help her with her 2nd grade math homework which as "clearly over my head", and when I looked at her curiously she stared back at me and said "you're an a*****le" with my son sitting right next to her.
That was it for me. I reached out to my sister to tell her what happened, and she told me what she had told me many times before, but I didn't want to hear. I tried to explain my situation to her, but she got frustrated and we got heated ourselves and out of frustration I ended the call. My sister sent me a barrage of texts telling me how she did understand and why I needed to stop discussion on the house and how some past incidents I had previously told her about were all the reason I needed to end things. I didn't respond. When I got home, my wife confronted me saying that if I needed to text about her I should do it in private... I had my phone on me, so I was confused, but I learned that she had read the texts my sister sent to me by looking through texts to my personal number on iMessage on our home computer. She got upset because I was "telling lies" about her to my sister, and was upset because she now felt uncomfortable welcoming her into our house if she wanted to come to visit... and that I was wrong for sharing issues in our personal lives with people she interacts with. It was all too much for me. I finally said I had enough and that if things didn't change I was willing to walk away. I said that I had the right to speak to my family, that I was not responsible for my sister's words. Further that I was done with being her punching bag for everything she's unhappy with because it was simply toxic for me. I started pulling away.
You might ask how things are now... yesterday she sent me a text asking if we could stop the fighting. I responded "that would be great, but it is not all up to me. I would like to discuss it with you." She was civil all evening and then as I was going to bed she came into my room and asked if I wanted to talk. Okay... I went into her bedroom and we talked.. about everything except what we needed to. And then she grabbed my arm and put it around her and, well...
It's love-bombing. I'm acutely aware of it now and I know that if I fall for it I am setting myself up for the next cycle which will be as bad as ever. HOW DOES THIS END?

Sorry if this is too much (you asked for details), but any insights and guidance, especially on the last question, would be invaluable. As of today, I am dead set on saying that the only way I am moving forward with the house is if she agrees to couple's therapy, but I plan to do it in the spirit of "improving and strengthening our relationship and family on multiple fronts". I'm nervous as to how she will respond, but I know I have to be strong.

[Concern4mywife20]

V - Thank you for sharing the level of detail in your stories.  I can definitely relate to the nonsensical escalation of so many arguments.  My largest mistake is that I have made a habit of suppressing, avoiding and blocking these instances from my memory.  As a result I have lost my sense of self and reality. Most of the work I have been doing in therapy has been on regaining my trust and belief in my own thoughts and perceptions.   

It sounds like you are doing a great job of recalling exactly what has happened step-by-step and are not questioning or blaming yourself in knowing when you haven't done anything wrong to warrant the level of responses you've been receiving.  This has been very helpful for me to read and hear. Thank you again for sharing, and I'm grateful that you've joined this community to better yourself, your life and your family.