BPDW and inescapable truths / kids

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

My W's behavior ebbs and flows, and it's taken me forever to begin to see it clearly - however I am increasingly confident that her "BPD-ish" behavior is, in fact, BPD.

I have yet to serve papers, but I have identified a good atty and I am saving up for the retainer. 

In parallel, I sense that my W is preparing for the discard and is also making preparations - practical or otherwise.

She's said some amazing things in recent days:
- "you want to control how much coffee I drink" (I once suggested that given our financial situation, it might be helpful not to go to Starbucks 3x every day, and spend $200 per month)
- "you don't want me to have any friends" (I once suggested that I'd like to go for more walks with her - and she sees this as competing with the time she spends walking with friends)
- "you are cruel, unfair, and lie about me" (because I noted that it cannot be easy for her to be reminded about her affair partner on social media, where she insists on maintaining contact)

I could go on.

I know that when / if I serve papers, I will be painted 100% black. I think I'm pretty much there already, but she's holding back - likely because her AP tapped out and a lot of her attention has gone to her self-pity/rejection/victim focus, or because she knows that a D will be a financial disaster for her - for all of us - and she hasn't figured out how to blame me for it yet (she quit her job two years ago).  In the meantime, I think she's lining up support with her family by painting me as abusive, etc. 

She has one flying monkey with no self esteem who she relies on for support - she's crafted quite an ugly picture of me and our relationship... she considered this individual to be a complete idiot about 6 months ago, now they are BFFs.

One of the things that weighs on me the most is the kids - my (prospective) atty thinks it should be possible to get 50% custody, or better if I want to be aggressive.  I know in the long term this is the right way to go, but I am reluctant to open up a battle that I cannot afford to fight (atty fees for a longer battle), and how that will impact our 3x kids in the short-medium term (d5, d9, d12).

I am also hoping to avoid turning the holidays into a recurring PTSD event for all involved.

Which brings me to my questions.

My W cheated, this brought everything about our relationship to the forefront. This is not in question. I am finally recognizing / admitting things that I've known for some time - my W cannot be honest with me if she cannot be honest with herself. She is not a safe partner, and I am increasingly concerned about our kids well-being.

I struggle with the ideas of staying to protect the kids (13+ year mission until the youngest is out of the house), vs. leaving to protect the kids (hopefully giving them at least one healthy environment to offset whatever they experience with their mother).

If we D, at some point, everyone, including our kids, is likely to find out what's happened - she will be exposed, and she is loathe to accept blame for anything. What crazymaking should I expect from her to avoid her own culpability in a D? Playing the victim, blaming me for pushing her away, false accusations of abuse, etc. - all predictable. What else should I be prepared to deal with, assuming that she attempts to weaponize the kids?

I know everyone is different, but is it even possible to cohabitate with a BPDW through a divorce? I'm concerned about false DV accusations or similar. I can attempt to setup my own apartment within our house, keep security cams and voice recorders rolling, etc.  What else can I do to try to avoid conflict while going through a huge conflictual process?  Is it even possible? Has anyone here attempted it?  Done it?

I'm half way through Splitting - Wow.  Is there any possible way to soften the landing in this situation?

Thanks for reading.

[EyesUp]

My W's behavior ebbs and flows, and it's taken me forever to begin to see it clearly - however I am increasingly confident that her "BPD-ish" behavior is, in fact, BPD.

I have yet to serve papers, but I have identified a good atty and I am saving up for the retainer. 

In parallel, I sense that my W is preparing for the discard and is also making preparations - practical or otherwise.

She's said some amazing things in recent days:
- "you want to control how much coffee I drink" (I once suggested that given our financial situation, it might be helpful not to go to Starbucks 3x every day, and spend $200 per month)
- "you don't want me to have any friends" (I once suggested that I'd like to go for more walks with her - and she sees this as competing with the time she spends walking with friends)
- "you are cruel, unfair, and lie about me" (because I noted that it cannot be easy for her to be reminded about her affair partner on social media, where she insists on maintaining contact)

I could go on.

I know that when / if I serve papers, I will be painted 100% black. I think I'm pretty much there already, but she's holding back - likely because her AP tapped out and a lot of her attention has gone to her self-pity/rejection/victim focus, or because she knows that a D will be a financial disaster for her - for all of us - and she hasn't figured out how to blame me for it yet (she quit her job two years ago).  In the meantime, I think she's lining up support with her family by painting me as abusive, etc. 

She has one flying monkey with no self esteem who she relies on for support - she's crafted quite an ugly picture of me and our relationship... she considered this individual to be a complete idiot about 6 months ago, now they are BFFs.

One of the things that weighs on me the most is the kids - my (prospective) atty thinks it should be possible to get 50% custody, or better if I want to be aggressive.  I know in the long term this is the right way to go, but I am reluctant to open up a battle that I cannot afford to fight (atty fees for a longer battle), and how that will impact our 3x kids in the short-medium term (d5, d9, d12).

I am also hoping to avoid turning the holidays into a recurring PTSD event for all involved.

Which brings me to my questions.

My W cheated, this brought everything about our relationship to the forefront. This is not in question. I am finally recognizing / admitting things that I've known for some time - my W cannot be honest with me if she cannot be honest with herself. She is not a safe partner, and I am increasingly concerned about our kids well-being.

I struggle with the ideas of staying to protect the kids (13+ year mission until the youngest is out of the house), vs. leaving to protect the kids (hopefully giving them at least one healthy environment to offset whatever they experience with their mother).

If we D, at some point, everyone, including our kids, is likely to find out what's happened - she will be exposed, and she is loathe to accept blame for anything. What crazymaking should I expect from her to avoid her own culpability in a D? Playing the victim, blaming me for pushing her away, false accusations of abuse, etc. - all predictable. What else should I be prepared to deal with, assuming that she attempts to weaponize the kids?

I know everyone is different, but is it even possible to cohabitate with a BPDW through a divorce? I'm concerned about false DV accusations or similar. I can attempt to setup my own apartment within our house, keep security cams and voice recorders rolling, etc.  What else can I do to try to avoid conflict while going through a huge conflictual process?  Is it even possible? Has anyone here attempted it?  Done it?

I'm half way through Splitting - Wow.  Is there any possible way to soften the landing in this situation?

Thanks for reading.

[ForeverDad]

I'm sure you will get quite a variety of responses, so much to share with you.  Please browse the posts here on the Family Law board, you'll gain a general idea of what to prepare for (anything and everything) and more.

I see you've already considered some issues.  We agree that "staying for the kids" is not a solution because it doesn't set a good example for the kids because (1) you can't be there every minute to protect them, (2) you would probably have to appease and be compliant to ridiculous demands, and (3) the children would not have a separate home where they can see the immense difference between functional and dysfunctional parenting.

At a minimum you should seek equal time in a parenting schedule.  My custody evaluator, a child psychologist, recommended a 2-2-3 schedule for children up to at least age 10 or so.  In my case, my ex had Mon-Tue overnights, I had Wed-Thu overnights (so I could monitor their schoolwork as the school week ended) and alternated the Fri-Sat-Sun overnights.  If you can get more sooner, great.

Odds are you may walk into court the first time facing a judge who is used to awarding The Mother temp custody and temp majority time.  It is your task to work with your lawyer to quickly document why you need to be more involved as the "reasonably normal and deeply involved" Father.  I had a half hour hearing and my good but traditional lawyer whispered to me, "Shh, stay quiet, we'll fix it later."  Well, it did get fixed later, only it was nearly two years later when we transitioned into the final divorce decree.   So my advice is to encourage you to make a brief but convincing presentation to the judge as to why you need a temp order that doesn't favor mother.  Remember, your initial hearing may be very brief and judge may not see any need to go beyond the basics.  If you fail at that then try to get a clause added to the temp order (which may continue for a year or two during the divorce process) that the order can be modified if conflict and impasses arise.  Overall, it may take time for the judge and others associated with the court to realize you are the parent with practical solutions, not a controller.

I didn't get joint custody until two years after separation in the final decree.  If you can, try to get some level of authority in the temp order, or at least get a clause to revisit the matter a few months later.  At some point you will need to seek Decision Making authority or Tie Breaker status so you don't have to keep turning to the court to handle predictable obstructions.

By the way, judges seem to prefer you to be humble and follow direction.  I doubt you're a doctor so be aware they won't want you to Play Doctor claiming she has this or that personality disorder.  Yes, you've lived with her for years and know her well, but they'll insist that you don't have the training to speak on mental health matters.  Actually, court generally isn't inclined to learn whether either parent has issues.  They will treat you and your spouse as you both are.  They won't try to fix either of you, beyond requiring you both to attend parenting classes.

So what do courts do?  They pay attention to the documentation over time.  You would do well to do the same.  If you haven't already, start logging the poor parenting behaviors in a journal, calendar or diary.  By recording details it will be acceptable to the court as incidents and not viewed as hearsay like vague claims of "he always..." or "she always..."  Court generally doesn't care to listen to old complaints, anything older than six months before you enter the court system will probably be considered "stale" unless it is presented to establish patterns of behavior.

Probably from the start, at the first hearing in court for the temp order, you will want to encourage in court that your spouse start looking for gainful employment again.  She had an income before and not that long ago.  The kids are old enough for her to make time for an income again.  (Be prepared for her to protest and make excuses.)  However, court may not force her to do that quickly.  When the court considers ordering child support, make sure that the calculations don't record her as zero income.  Try to get the lawyer to agree to list her imputed income, comparable to what she could earn today.

These days alimony, if any and generally after the final decree, is no longer than half the marriage and often just a few years, enough for the financially disadvantaged spouse/parent to get on her feet post-marriage.

I'm concerned about false DV accusations or similar.

There's a saying here, If it has been threatened or even contemplated, it will happen, given enough time.

Some of us managed to reside together during the divorce, having more or less separate domains in the home.  I couldn't, there were threats and I had the police involved and we separated before filing for divorce.  In the final months together I had a couple voice recorders, that was before today's fancy cell phones were developed, I was always fearing one would be full or have dead batteries.  I quietly recorded, avoiding waving it around so I didn't create incidents.  I strongly believed I needed to prove I wasn't the one aggressive or misbehaving.  (Time proved me right.)  I continued using them at exchanges and during any communication.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.

I know everyone is different, but is it even possible to cohabitate with a BPDW through a divorce? I'm concerned about false DV accusations or similar. I can attempt to setup my own apartment within our house, keep security cams and voice recorders rolling, etc.  What else can I do to try to avoid conflict while going through a huge conflictual process?  Is it even possible? Has anyone here attempted it?  Done it?

In my GF's case, the answer was a definite "NO!" to cohabitate with her xBPDH.  With very strong boundaries you may manage it; however, it's risky as the processes hits the big rocks.  Continue to research in here and you'll read a lot of stories about the challenges in cohabitating during divorce. 

Divorce is by nature a high-conflict process.  Add in a high-conflict partner, well, it seems to become a higher order of crazy. 
Suggest you also read Bill Eddy's BIFF book as well to help with communications.   

Plan, plan, and plan some more.  Plan privately.  Practice good operations security.  Assume anything you say (and do) can (and will) be used against you.  Hire an effective lawyer that has experience with high-conflict divorces and is known for getting things done.  Good luck, God Bless.  CoMo

[ForeverDad]

Another meaning to cohabitate is not just live in the same residence but have intimacy.  I don't think you were referring to intimacy but as a reminder to any who might be lurking and reading here, any intimacy while pondering or planning separation and divorce is a big red flag.  How so?  Can you guarantee that a pregnancy won't result?

One of the questions posed by court questionnaires is, "Is the spouse pregnant (with the other spouse's child)?"  Clearly, already having children makes a separation/divorce complicated.  You don't want to add the risk of a pregnancy and make everything even more complicated.

[worriedStepmom]

I haven't followed your other threads.  How do your wife's BPD traits manifest?  Is she more of a waif (constant victim who withdraws into herself) or a witch (wants revenge)?  Is she more apt to fight forever just to win, or to fight a little while and then throw in the towel because it's too hard/overwhelming to keep questioning her view of herself?  Is parenting a key part of her vision of herself?

My H has primary custody in part because his ex cannot face the idea of court and folds before a hearing.  Other dads have gone to court and won custody because their exes cannot keep it together.  And a few dads are dealing with severe parental alienation, where mom is trying (sometimes successfully) to poison the kids.  And some have amped that up with allegations of abuse.

(H's ex tried to alienate SD13, but she wasn't very good at it.)

[EyesUp]

Thanks, all.

I am actively documenting everything, I have two VARs plus my phone and I am actively recording although I live in a 2-way consent state. We also have video security with cloud recording that captures some common areas.

W was Section 12'd not long ago, and I am concerned about false DV claims as retaliation, so I am on full alert.

In terms of "cohab" - my prospective atty has advised me not to leave the house. Not only can I not afford to maintain two residences, but I cannot easily question my W's fitness to parent if I willingly leave 3 kids in her care full time.  I presently bear a lot of responsibility - I prep breakfast and get kids ready in the AM and then assist with remote learning (pandemic!) while W goes to the gym and aforementioned starbucks. every. day.  And I bathe the youngest and read to the kids at bedtime. I cherish this time. 

I know there are no good options when dealing with a high conflict divorce other than to prep.  I've read BIFF, etc.

Are there any examples of interventions or enlisting friends and family to soften the process?  I expect that exposing the crazy will only make it worse.

W is both a waif/victim (predominant mode for ~ 20+ years) but more recently a witch (exemplified by her affair and how she continues to characterize it as "empowering" without a hint of remorse).  I have no doubt that she is capable of weaponizing the kids and advancing an alienation campaign.

Her AP seems to have caught her crazy scent and is keeping some distance, so she doesn't have an emotional safety net outside of one incredibly insecure flying monkey who hangs on W's every word, plus her father and sister who are aware of her affair but not entirely aware of the severity of her BP behavior.  I fear that they will offer support - emotional and financial - and that will be W's crutch to paint me black and initiate the D from her side.

Thus far I have not engaged the AP or his wife. The AP is the father of one of D5's school friends and AP's W is in my W's social circle - the moms (she effectively cheated on me, our kids, and all her friends).  I wonder if exposing the affair to the AP's W could be helpful in some way.  In the meantime, I feel like an accomplice to my W's behavior by indirectly accepting the behavior by not calling it out - and by allowing that poor woman to continue to be deceived by my W, who treats her like a friend, and by her husband - who appears to be a Narc.

[ForeverDad]

A truism noted here is that, more often than not, "blood is thicker than water".  So her relatives are more likely to side with their blood-related children or siblings.  Not always, but generally.

Another is that there will almost surely be a difference in responses between your friends and her friends.  That's rather predictable.

As for mutual friends whom you'd like to believe will see how decent and reasonably normal you are, it's a toss up at best, but you can't trust that they'll side with you once the disinformation campaign begins.  And some of them, though they don't necessarily disbelieve you, won't want to deal with the conflict and step back.

A concept you'll have to be more comfortable with is this:  It is what it is.  You can't fix her, granted, but you also can't live her life for her.  She will do or not do what she wants and you'll have little if any impact on that.  What you do have control of is your boundaries, how you respond to her behaviors and actions.

The same goes for 'her' friends, think twice before reaching out to them, ponder what consequences might result.  Frankly, her friend who is AP's spouse does deserve to know, if she doesn't know already, but how?

Let me add that in my own life I eventually reached the point where I had to call it like it was.  I had tried to manage the discord which kept increasing over the years but toward the end I Accepted the end was looming.  I sensed she would be making allegations* and so I started searching for some way to prove I wasn't the one misbehaving.  I bought a couple voice recorders as my insurance, no video on cell phones in those days.  In recent years I've described it this way, considering that some members live in 2-party states... "I'm quietly** recording myself to document I'm not being aggressive, misbehaving or abusive, if someone nearby happens to be raging or yelling nearby, oops, so be it."

* If it has been threatened or contemplated, then it will happen, given enough time.

** It is non-productive to wave a recorder or cell phone in front of the other's face, very likely it can create, trigger or worsen an incident.

[EyesUp]

Frankly, her friend who is AP's spouse does deserve to know, if she doesn't know already, but how?

Thanks, FD.

Dealing with the double-headed monster that is PD + infidelity, I've also been reading about affair recovery.  There are many advocates for informing the other betrayed spouse - if not as a moral obligation then as a force function to resolve the conflict in one's own marriage (or whatever remains after the discovery).

I find the betrayal nearly intolerable.  I'm increasingly aware of my own "fixer" mindset, however I clearly see that this episode is beyond my abilities to change in any way.  It had to get to this point for me to see that I've been compensating for my W in so many ways.  I'm studying detachment, and thinking about the weeks and months and years of practice ahead to potentially make a change in myself.  It's daunting.

I don't believe in short cuts - my interest in informing the AP's W is as much about forcing a reckoning, come what may - in the service of truth and integrity.  That said, unintended consequences are a concern - particularly for our kids.  So I've held off.

I fully expect that informing the AP's W would accomplish the following:
- Cause the AP to fully disown my W
- Potentially cause my W to see her AP clearly (a player who used her for sex without regard for his own family, etc.)
- Potentially cause my W to paint me black and expedite whatever comes next - but in the light of the truth of her actions rather than some false narrative

From my POV, the AP's W's marriage is already wrecked, she may not know it - she deserves her own agency and the right to make a choice instead of living in an illusion.

In the meantime, my W would like to host a wine night at our house and of course AP's W would be included in the group.  I find this intolerable, and unconscionable.  So I have established a boundary that my W sees as selfish and controlling - so be it.  Let there be consequences for her poor choices.

Again, I'm not in a rush - I've been sitting on this since mid-August.  Ultimately, I need to be true to my values.  I'm struggling between honoring my vows - in sickness and health - vs. honoring my integrity and my kids. 

[ForeverDad]

Historically, infidelity has long been considered a valid basis for divorce.  So don't guilt yourself too much about that clause "in sickness and in health".  Your spouse is an adult, it was largely her choice, her decision.

As for yourself, recovery is a process, not an event.

[Turkish]

I agreed to let the mother of our children live with us until she could move out comfortably, securing what they used to call Section 8 (affordable housing) in the USA. 4 months of emotional hell.

Like you, I took the most care of the kids while she "phoned it in" as a mom with her AP. I did call her out once when she returned at 5AM. I slept on the trundle next to our then almost 4 son and D1 in the crib. 

Overall, as much as it affected me emotionally, I let het have her fun and detached emotionally; living together, ships passing by night, so to speak.

We negotiated a joint legal and physical custody split, singed a few months after she moved out.  We had a few strong discussions, but no fights. I tried to be like Spock.

The kids wanted to be with me.  Mommy moving out was shocking. She introduced them to their new step dad within weeks. S4 was angry. But we got through it.  The goal for me was that court signed order which was completed a few months later. Protecting us all. 

Play the long game for you and your kids.  I used her fantasy with her AP to our advantage to secure our safety.

[EyesUp]

Turkish, wow.

I want to subscribe to your newsletter.

I'm playing the long game here, but I admit it didn't occur to me to allow the affair to continue, not that the affair or my W's behaviors were ever in my control in the first place.

Now that the affair is over, my W is back to her exceeding anxious and depressed self. In 25 years, I still haven't figured out her cycle or triggers, or anything I can do other than avoid her and manage myself.

My IC had a few incisive comments this week.  My W has attempted to blame shift by citing some things I've done in the past - when she was 8.5 months pregnant with our 2nd child, I didn't tell her when I was unexpectedly laid off at work.  With the 1st child she had high blood pressure and was induced early.  Combined with anxiety, I didn't want to cause extra stress. So I launched a full scale job search from the library and landed two offers in < 1 week - but not before W called the office (which never happens) and found out I wasn't there (they broke protocol and discussed employment status) and freaked out.  To this day, she insists that I lied to her.  Granted, it was a lie of omission rather than commission (i.e., her affair), but she still holds it out as an example of why I may not be trustworthy - even though my motive was to protect her.  My IC notes that I was being a caretaker and that this sort of well-intentioned behavior often backfires.  Point taken.

Sorry for the tangent, I do appreciate your example and hope I have the strength to get through the coming weeks and months.

I don't think I have the ability to actually kick her out without a restraining order and we're not quite at that point. And the kids do love her - until this year, she was the primary care provider - most doctor appointments, etc etc.  Since the pandemic kicked in and I've been grounded and WFH, the balance of attention has shifted to me, but not enough to shift the kids' perception and she hasn't exactly abandoned them, even if her affair with our youngest daughter's friend's father suggests a massive gap in concern for our kids' wellbeing.

That's one of the things I struggle with - If she was a hypergamist who had an affair with someone in another town, who she could possibly have a continuing relationship with - I might be able to wrap my head around the whole thing.  But she picked a younger married guy who makes a fraction of my income - he is unavoidable in our community, and always will be - it's a small town.  Sooner or later this will come out.  So stupid, and avoidable.

The point is:  She's not moving in with him. He's married and apparently wants to stay that way.  This would be much easier if one of us had someplace to go.

I struggle with the idea of leaving so that the kids can have the stability of staying in the house with her 50% of the time, vs. staying in this intolerable situation a bit longer - with as much detachment as possible - to try to get a better place for all of us (there I go - trying to fix it again).  I do worry that she will suffer some sort of mental break and/or fully paint me black in the process. 

Everywhere is risk and uncertainty.  I know this much: she is not safe.

[Enabler]

Hey Eyesup,

Reading your post I got a massive shiver up my spine. The commonalities between your situation and mine are huge (albeit at different stages... I'm 4yrs on from you), even down to the number, age and sex of your children.

You sound way way way way more up the curve than me with respects to understanding your current position, understanding your options and knowing about BPD /BPD traits. I personally knew nothing about BPD or personality disorders in general till a year after my world blew up. This gave me plenty of time to make an utter mess of the situation. I really can't highlight enough what a great position this puts you in to make some super super positive choices.

The affair and OM - Be careful, there is a way this needs to be dealt with, like cutting off the head of a snake, and there's the softly softly no shame way that it appears that it's being handled at the moment. Not all affairs are the same, but from what I have read there are some commonalities. Without certain things being genuinely accepted by all parties it's likely to arise again and again. Over time the narrative will change and responsibility of the affair will be yours... that said, that seems like less of an issue since you have made the choice to divorce, however, if you were to change your mind in the coming months I suggest you're cognisant of dealing with this properly. I agree with your assessment with regards to what would happen if you tell the OM's wife unilaterally. There are 2 paths; you and your W attempt to reconcile in which case all parties must be informed and lights shone wherever there is darkness. There must be accountability by all parties and each party must be given suitable opportunity to place appropriate boundaries i.e. his W around herself and OM and W around their marriage. Similarly for you and your W. You and your W choose not to reconcile it becomes a choice of your conscience, but there will be consequences for you.

Living with your partner - In my experience this would be a period where you have seen the light, you have a lot of clarity and a lot of the compunction to get involved in the day to day scraps is lifted. It's a period where you can actually make great changes to the way you interact with your wife... But... she'll probably not like it. You might stop questioning the social life, the walks with friends and might stop asking for her to walk with you instead preferring to go on your own or better still go with the kids. If your W is anything like mine she could be inclined to take this "cake" and "eat it" and get fat on her social life, and maybe slip back into the affair or another one with another man. You on the other hand will be rotating... rotating away from focusing energy on your W and instead focusing attention and energy on your children. The coming years are going to be tough whatever happens and the stronger the bonds between you and them and the more they see you as an example to follow the stronger your position will be and the more likely the children will be to come out of the situation less damaged (damaged is somewhat inevitable). Use the time to You are going to need thick skin and likely have a lot of accusations thrown at you, many of which you will be tempted to retort with a reminder of the affair... this won't get you anywhere. I have mixed feelings about whether or not it was a good thing for me to stay here for the last 4 years (W bailed out in June and moved to a rental property). One thing I do know is that it's harder to ask for something from someone who doesn't want to give it to you than stand still and hold onto something you've already got. Don't leave and expect reasonable behaviour, kindness and definitely not generosity.  As much as the guilt of the affair will be washed away by a lovely blame shift, and shame she has over an entitled divorced claim or witholding access to children will soon morph into a justified and fortified narrative.

I wonder whether or not you have to tread more carefully with a BPD waif since the character traits attract considerably more sympathy and support than I'd imagine a queen or witch might (sorry to use these types but I think YOU know what I mean). Queen/Witch variants have a tendency to be less likeable and garner less support/affirmation as they have obvious rough edges like a barking dogs vs dog with an injured leg. It's more obvious to the average Joe how they themselves might have contributed to marital discourse. I suspect you will find that if your W lurks in the right places she will find a lot of support and you could well find yourself alone being seen as the person kicking the injured leg dog.

You're already very clued up... make great purposeful choices and look down the road for likely consequences of those decisions. Rotate to focus on the people and things that are important to you and try and work to preserve those things. I'd say you have time, but set yourself milestones else you could find yourself in the same position 4 years + down the track.

New-Life

[EyesUp]

@NewLife,

Thanks for your considerate response and advice.

The situation here has escalated. Tonight I discovered that my wife is/has connected with a new partner online. They possibly met today.  It's clear that she's become obsessed with outside validation and sex.

I have not confronted her - I'm lining up plans.  I hope to have a loan by next week to put down a retainer for an atty and get the D papers in process.  I need practical legal advice to protect the kids - and myself - from the monster in my house.

Not sure what to do with our MC session on Friday, and timing relative to the holidays could not be worse - but this cannot go on.

[ForeverDad]

You cannot live her life for her.  If you extracted promises from her to change, abandon her affair partner, or whatever... it won't change her life and perceptions, at least not for long.

Technically, from a legal standpoint, she's not a 'monster'.  Yes, she betrayed you and your marriage but she's still a person and still a mother.  As I mentioned above, court will just see two spouses/parents whose relationship has unraveled.  Sure, the state's laws might view affairs as fault, but in advance you can't know precisely how much the court might rule in your favor on that even if you have definitive proof.

You already had indications of an affair, with this extra information stay calm.  I'd suggest you don't raise this issue at MC, you don't know what actions, reactions and overreactions your spouse may take afterward.  I wouldn't be surprised if she would choose to seek some way to frame you or insinuate you are more black than her, alleging you're behaving worse than her.  You can have one last MC session where you reveal what you know but do that once you have your loan, lawyer and ready to file immediately after.

Should you cancel your MC appointment and continue it another day?  Or can you keep yourself under control at future appointments and not spill the beans prematurely?  We understand you may be outraged and feel so betrayed but have a perspective of playing the long game... optimal choices for separation, divorce process, and the years post-divorce.

[EyesUp]

@FD, yes, I know you're right.

And not to be too defensive, but when a 46yo mother of 3 repeatedly lies, and put her fragile ego ahead of the wellbeing of her children, well, maybe that's a kind of monster.

I know I need to focus on me and stop trying to control her.  However I do wonder if I should reach out to her IC or to her family in concert with next steps.

You are correct that she will paint me black(er), so some preemptive communication might be in my own best interest.

[Enabler]

Eyesup,

Sorry to hear my crystal ball told some truth. It sucks massively for you and will suck massively for the kids for all the reasons it sucks for you.

So, the mistakes I made... thinking that if I tell her what I knew she would stop it. The problem with telling your W what you know is that she then learns how to hide things. For some reason I always think of a line from a recent song "Shame never made someone less gay". Shame will not make your W stop. She's managed to work her way round a lot of guilt and shame obstacles to get to this point. I was advised to read a good book called "Love must be tough" by Dobson. It's a Christian book but I think it's application is great regardless of it's religious tilt.

I would suggest that you get your ducks in a row before mentioning anything to her. Go to marriage counselling and participate until such time you are ready.

One thing that is not on your list, and that's the kids. What's the realistic chance of you getting the access you want? At the moment you are doing a lot of the care for them... but what if your wife decides she wants the kids, just because. What kind of evidence do you have to support and reinforce 50/50 or more parenting time? Do you know where you stand legally on that in your location? Like I said, it's easier to hold onto something than ask for it back once you've left. It's often assumed that the parenting status will remain the same and not considered as needing protection and planning. Your timing and action needs to consider the kids as well. If it's decided that you need to do some work on that I suggest you bide your time until that's very much in place.

One last point... PAUSE... It's often very easy in this situation to assume that information that floats past you is clear cut and "understandable". I don't know whether the information you have seen is detailed or cryptic but I know from experience I have jumped to conclusions and later found out the truth was slightly more complex and less sinister.
"I need to see you"... "okay tomorrow at 10 in the usual place" could mean many things, and could mean that she needs to tie up some loose ends with OM.
"I need to see you for sex"... "okay tomorrow at 10 at the motel" is more specific.
Be careful of jumping to conclusions... and reacting to those conclusions.

NL

[EyesUp]

I am keeping two journals:  one is a factual list/log of basic activity, e.g, "breakfast for kids" - the second is also factual, but describes conversations and interactions and events.  Been keeping both daily since August, but the event journal actually goes back to 2011 in bits and pieces.

Yesterday's info suggests that my wife met someone yesterday and had some sexual contact, not clear if there was actual intercourse but one of her follow up messages went into a lot of detail about preferences, and specific acts she'd like to do...

Cherry on this PLEASE READ sandwich?  She sent me a txt suggesting we have sex later today... 

I'm not going to be cuck'd for multiple reasons, time to set some boundaries!

[ForeverDad]

During my divorce hearings we didn't do much testimony at all.  However post-divorce was different.  Our last hearing/trial was in late 2013.  During that hearing I 'refreshed' my memory with details from my log, a weekly calendar book, and I was able to give dates, times, places, and other details.  Her lawyer never asked for it to be shared or browsed with my ex or the court, my lawyer assured me that my journals remained private.

Courts usually focus attention on only the 6 months prior to the beginning of the court case.  Anything older is largely ignored as "stale" unless... you are documenting a pattern of poor behaviors.  So you can do both.

Good that you are documenting details, courts largely ignore vague claims such as "he always..." or "she always..."  Your log or diary is private, you don't have to share it with her or others.  However, if you are testifying and need to refer to it to refresh your memory, that's okay, no one can demand to search it.

[Enabler]

She sent me a txt suggesting we have sex later today... 

Alas the don't have the chunder emoji on here. Yuck

Keeping a diary for me is 2 fold. Firstly it's a good record of evidence for the court although as ForeverDad mentioned it seems to be less considered than we'd like. That said, in a court setting the person who can walk into the court with a file with labelled tabs and have a very clear very consistent knowledge of his/her position and history (even if it's not called upon) is going to have an advantage to the person who has an inconsistent chaotic knowledge which isn't documented. Secondly a diary is great for your sanity. I found that details over the years get messed around with by my W. I find myself referencing the diary weekly if not daily to fact check something that happened or who did what. In a world where you start to lose trust in your own sanity it can be great for grounding yourself.

Additional to my last point, my recommendation is that you don't obsess about the affair or the sex hookups, it can dominate your head space. You know what you know now and more than once could be twice or a thousand times, it doesn't make it better or worse in my opinion. That would be the optimal approach... BUT... I can totally empathise if you can't help yourself and appreciate you just want to know. A diary can help you with this, see patterns of behaviour and minimise the time you spend trying to join the dots together. It can help reduce cognitive biases and help you see information for what it is. It's not going to stop it from happening and is unlikely to be very useful other than for your peace of mind and comfort you have a grip on reality. Be sure to put your own behaviour in there as well.

NL

[EyesUp]

Thanks, both.

The immediate problem is withholding affection and having her go off the rails immediately before the holiday - and before I have a legal plan and safety plan in place.

I feel like I've gone from misery to actual danger. My wife is hooking up with strangers during a pandemic.

Not sure if this is compulsive affirmation seeking behavior or manic or just BPD'ing, but it is new for my wife. I think it's triggered by two things: The first is that I have recently set some boundaries, which she perceives as control/rejection ("why are you being such a jerk" when I took our daughter out for pizza without her explicit approval), and second, it's become clear that her original AP has ghosted her and so he's off the pedestal and she's very unsettled by it. If I had to guess, it's almost like she needs to hookup with someone to get back at the AP, who she assumes has moved on to someone new - so she will prove that she can move on as well. I'm merely collateral damage, or possibly she feels empowered by continuing to disrespect me as well.

Of course no regard for personal safety, our the kids.

If I confront her, I expect the worst - explosion.  Initially, I hoped that her new toy would keep her busy so I could get my plans in order. 

Working fast, but all the perfect things are simply not going to happen. 

I hate this pattern of continuing to wait, wait, wait for calmer weather, and it's particularly disappointing that some high risk interactions will occur during the holidays.

Last but not least - her mother is our single guest for thanksgiving.  Her mother is one of her major triggers ("nothing is ever good enough") and it's challenging to support my wife under "normal" conditions - so chances are very good that something is going to blow up in the coming days.

[Enabler]

What does an explosion look like?

You have MC tonight don't you? Do you have any plans for this?

NL

[EyesUp]

What does an explosion look like?

You have MC tonight don't you? Do you have any plans for this?

NL

Explosion looks like a suicide threat and/or physical threat, followed by 911 call.  

I regret that I did not ride through the whole process the first time this happened when our last MC called 911 mid-session. I wish my wife had the full psych eval at that time, however she was released on the advice of her psyd and IC, against the advice of the MC.

Our current MC is not aware of this history, but has started to note signs of my wife's behavior.

For yesterday's session, I avoided any direct confrontation and we slipped by - next session is in two weeks due to the holiday.  

My sense is that if I confront my wife, it will quickly devolve - days before Thanksgiving.  

I'm also cognizant of protecting my own interests, the kids, and detaching.  

In the meantime, she is likely having sex soon, if not already, with someone she met on Ashley Madison less than one week ago. She was messaging late last night.

Her behavior will probably be helpful - to me - in an eventual custody discussion. I'm documenting whatever I can.  In the meantime, this is a new low for emotional state.

I know it's against my best interest, but i am tempted to let my wife know I know... something. To try to give her support, and avoid STDs, covid, etc.  I could say that if it comes to light that she's seeing someone, I'll need her to quarantine out of the house for two weeks - but enforcing this position would be difficult, and she returned with a negative test in a day or two, then what?

Suggestions welcome.

[GaGrl]

You have the Covid-19 quarantine situation to deal with. But you also have her pressure for intimacy with no assurance she has been having safe sex with her affair partners. While you would like to believe this, you can't.

My H's first marriage to a uBPD/NPD woman was one of blatant and constant infidelities. She tried to be discreet at first but have up any pretense by the time the children were teens. We deal now with an STD that she gave him, with occasional flares.

I could write a book about the damage to H and the children.

[ForeverDad]

You need to keep in close contact with your supporters, local such as your personal counselor, your family and your trusted friends (not even mutual friends who may end up siding with your stbEx) and of course the peer support such as found here.

Surely we've all Been there, Done that.  This interim period is so very distressing.  We desperate want/need to do something, anything.  The prevailing wisdom is not to lose sight of the overall situation.  In my case I was wanting to see my preschooler son who, as it turned out, I didn't see for over 3 months.  I almost sabotaged myself...

My story was that I had two temp orders, one for the separation and her emergency filing and another for the divorce.  After the first was dismissed I didn't see my son for over 3 months.  She wouldn't even allow my calls to go through.  (And I was paying for our phones.)

My story, I didn't know it would be 3 months away from my son.  There were days I wanted to go knock on her door anyway.  Fortunately I didn't, police refused to enable a peace visit but did admit they'd come rushing if she called them.  I didn't want to risk arrest or jail so somehow I kept my distance until the court issued another temp order.

Also, when we did get our divorce hearing the magistrate asked her directly if she had withheld our preschooler.  He wasn't phased by her confirmation.  All he said was, "I'll fix that."  He issued an almost identical temp order as we had before.  No consequences for her, no make-up time for me.  For me it was my very life and parenting, for him it was another day at the office and another case before him.

In summary, you can't fix your spouse.  She is apparently well on her way along her chosen path.  Do you really believe your intervention or advice will be received appreciatively?  And if you do try to "help" by sharing your advance strategies it most likely would end up only sabotaging yourself.  And courts don't care how much you want to "help".  They treat each spouse as they are.

One truism I've learned here...  The person who is misbehaving seldom gets much in the way of consequences and the person who is behaving well seldom gets much in the way of credit.

[Enabler]

Great words of wisdom from ForeverDad there. Keeping cool and focused is very much the name of the game. Being able to look ahead and plan for potential curve balls is going to greatly help you here.

At the moment your temptation is to confront. You seem to have pretty good awareness of what the likely outcomes are, would you be able to note down here what the likely positive and negative outcomes will be... some of them will have clear positive short term outcomes but maybe longer term negative ones e.g.:

Positive
- She stops asking for sex and I will be able to protect myself from STD's
- I don't have to lie anymore
- She feels guilty and I hurt her as much as she hurts me

Negative
- She threatens suicide and or is violent
- She pushes for an aggressive divorce
- She leaves with children

My sense is that you will see that the short term gains from announcing anything will be tempered with long term big losses on your list. Maybe it would be helpful to bare this in mind when you're next in that situation.

This is going to sound like I'm pushing you one way then the other... but at the same time as I'm suggesting restraint, you staying "fawn" is also not a solution. Staying still purposefully is one thing, frozen with fear is another.

You're doing well, you're being considered, well done.

NL

[EyesUp]

Riding on the razor's edge today.

On one hand, my wife acknowledged that she's been obsessed with her former AP and that she needs to quit social media, or at least block him, for her own sanity. 

The discussion went "I will quit all social media, or at least move the apps to folders that are less accessible.  I still need to see updates from my gym."

So I took my shot and suggested that she delete Kik, too, and after some false starts she agreed and went through the whole process of killing the account.

Now I know that she will figure out how to reconnect, but it will take her at least some time.

In parallel I spoke with some emergency psych services, including an advocate who was present during the last 911 call. 

Presently giving my wife a lot of space.

After school, our kindergartner had a note that said that the ham in the lunch pack was moldy - not my wife's fault, it was in a store-bought / pre-made / sealed container - expiration date weeks away.  Still, my wife had a mini-tantrum "I'm a bad parent, too" and marched away "I'll be back to serve everyone later".

My 5yo daughter didn't miss a beat and made a card that said "you're a great parent".

It's going to be wall to wall eggshells tonight.

Maybe I'm kidding myself, I just don't want the kids to have PTSD around Thanksgiving for the rest of their lives...

[EyesUp]

current mood:

[Enabler]

Hope you navigate this period with wisdom Eyesup.

Thinking of you

NL

[worriedStepmom]

Maybe I'm kidding myself, I just don't want the kids to have PTSD around Thanksgiving for the rest of their lives...

This is the good thing about divorce - you will have an opportunity to create a home for your children that will be free of drama.  Your wife will cause drama around a holiday or event, if not now then someday.  That's just who she is.  It may cause the kids some shock.  But, over time, they'll see that with you everything is calm and okay.  They'll get over it - they will heal.

[Enabler]

I can second this point about differentiation after only 6 months. My sense is that when you are in the same house and together children see you as "parents", as a unit. When you separate they are able to differentiate between each of you and you are also able to act without the influences of being triggered by your wife, and subsequent spill over onto parenting.

My home is much much much calmer and casual where people have more time to do things because things are planned and structured and we all take responsibility for things. Arguments are shorter, tend to be fully resolved and discipline is purposeful and understood by all parties. Behaviour is better and sibling tensions have diminished considerably. I don't believe this to be the case at my STBexW's house, in fact I know it isn't the case as I'm still asked to mop up the fallout from the chaos occasionally.

I would like to say, this doesn't "just happen", it takes purpose and planning, commitment and dedication to learn a new way of parenting on your own., and new way of parenting along side someone who doesn't want to or can't parent that way. In many respects you're adopting not only the role of being an awesome Dad, but you're also adopting the role of being an awesome Mum as well. It's not to say that you're trying to replace their mother, but if one of their parents is very unreliable, the other has to be VERY reliable.

NL