Can this be used as leverage to help get me out?

[siochain]

Hello friends.

I realize I have made many posts, and received a lot of good feedback. I have studied the material on boundaries, and I now know that learning to have and stand by my boundaries will be essential for my life no matter what happens.
It was my lack of boundaries that got me into this marriage to begin with (it was basically a response to FOG, although I didn't recognize this at the time).

A new revelation has come to light, and I'm wondering if this may be something I can use to more easily end the marriage, or if this is better untouched.

It turns out she has profiles up on more than one dating site for marriage-minded people(using her real name no less). Since this fact wouldn't look good to anyone, would it be worth saying something like "so and so saw you on a website, and sent me a screenshot. I'm not even mad at you, but I think it's obvious neither of us are happy and I want us to let each other go in peace. I can't give you what you want, and I hope you find someone that can".

 

[ForeverDad]

Disordered people generally have an exceptionally good ability to sense subtle changes in us and how to sabotage us.

You've been here for less than two weeks and she's been able to sabotage you every step of the way, even going so far as to getting herself hospitalized.  She knows your weaknesses.  With a mentally healthy spouse that would be fine, you'd trust such a spouse to be loyal, trusting, supportive, a positive influence.  But she's not mentally healthy and it's tearing you apart with her active sabotages.

As they say when on airplanes, "In the even of an emergency, put on your own oxygen mask before helping others."  Why don't you put on your emergency mask?  She is in the best possible place where trained experts are there to care for her.

Another analogy...  she's like a person who is screaming "Help!  I'm drowning, save me!  I love you, if you love me you will save me!"  You jump in and pull her out.  But then she jumps in again and you pull her out again.  And again.  Do you see the pattern?  She's always calling for a rescuer, and you keep rescuing.  Is that a functional, healthy relationship?  How do you end that cycle, especially since you're now grasping the concept that this is a trap for you?

[babyducks]

Since this fact wouldn't look good to anyone, would it be worth saying something like "so and so saw you on a website, and sent me a screenshot. I'm not even mad at you, but I think it's obvious neither of us are happy and I want us to let each other go in peace. I can't give you what you want, and I hope you find someone that can".

my two cents siochain?

way too many words.    Waaaay too many.   way too many emotionally laden words.    mad - happy - peace - give you what you want  -   way too loaded.

like liveandlearned said in your other thread where you were talking about your leaving text:

Keeping it brief is often recommended to minimize the target. A smaller bullseye is harder to hit.

one of the best phrases I learned when dealing with my pwBPD is less is more,   the less words I use the greater chance I can get out with out conflict.   be brief.   be firm.   be (mildly) friendly as in cordial. stay within your emotional boundaries.   be informative.   be brief.  don't linger a endless conversation.

"so and so saw you on a website, and sent me a screenshot."

better to leave third parties out of this.   for lots of reasons.    its shaming.  it's trianglation.     

 "I'm not even mad at you, but"

She's responsible for her feelings, you are responsible for your feelings.   you are trying to end emotional intimacies with this woman.    which means Not Sharing Your Feelings with her.

but -   the word "but" negates what immediately comes before or after it depending how the sentence is written.   try to avoid BUT statments.   

 "I think it's obvious neither of us are happy and I want us to let each other go in peace."

less emotionally charged language.    let each other go respectfully.    let each other move on with our lives.   

"I can't give you what you want, and I hope you find someone that can".

don't accept blame.   don't open the door to accusations.    I can almost hear her coming back with "you never even tried to give me what I want"  and off you go to the races again.

"I can't give you what you want, and I hope you find someone that can".

really?  you hope she finds someone else while she is married to you?   

not suggesting you send this but play around with this language and see if you can identify the subtle difference in message/tone.

Siochain wife:   It seems you are active on website so and so and website such and such?   Its been obvious for a while that neither of us is happy in our marriage.   I want us to let each other go.   I will be _____fill in the blank________ moving out,... contacting a lawyer...ending our marriage... starting a trial separation  (state what you will do and then do it).    I want to ____fill in the blank again_________ move on, ... have a cooling off period,... have time to myself.

'ducks

[mart555]

It will likely turn explosive no matter what so might as well go with the approach that requires the least amount of effort: keep it short.    As the "Stop caretaking the borderline ..." book says: you cannot reason with someone that has BPD or NPD. 

[Snowflake90]

In my opinion, sorry for being repetitive, there's no "right" way to do this. But I think there are wrong ways, like what you're sugesting, coming up with a pretext and whatnot. If I were you and wanted out, I'd just say it in your own words. "This isn't working anymore, I think it's best each of us follow their own paths". The more reasons you give, the more you let her argue and try to prove you wrong. If you're serious about ending, you want it done as fast and easy as possible. If you keep throwing stuff into the pot, she'll fight back. Just be honest about your feelings and again, get rid of the guilt. I sense a lot of guilt in you. You're not responsible for her happiness, only yours. Yet you do think you are and perhaps hate yourself for making her life miserable. Newsflash, her life will be miserable with or without you, since she's mentally ill.
If you're really serious about ending, it's not about feelings anymore, reasons, or whatever. It needs no deep explanations. Just your sincere telling her it's over. No whats, buts, ifs or whatever.
Unless in my case where my ex was so dysregulated that she could kill herself if I just left her. And I have 2 kids too, so it was a bit more complicated. But it was pretty much like that too. I just had to call my in-laws first, so she wouldn't get crazy ideas.
It's painful I know, but surprisingly, you find out you live, and even better, after detaching from a foggy relationship.

[livednlearned]

Its been obvious for a while that neither of us is happy in our marriage.   I want us to let each other go.   I will be _____fill in the blank________ moving out,... contacting a lawyer...ending our marriage... starting a trial separation  (state what you will do and then do it).    I want to ____fill in the blank again_________ move on, ... have a cooling off period,... have time to myself.

This is a nice clean note.

If your boundary is to end the marriage contract this makes for a pretty small target.

Maybe get things set up in advance (accommodation, serving papers, separating finances) so that your next step is already in place. Being five steps ahead can really help us when there are extreme emotions in play.

Also, the truth is her infidelity is a gift to you. It zippered down the guilt you feel leaving someone who isn't well.

For her, it will be a source of shame and she may feel the need to even the score somehow.

Not saying it won't come up at some point, only that it's maybe a bit loaded to start a note with it if the goal is to not activate feelings she is ill-equipped to manage.

You may get more healing mileage, too, if you tell her how you want to communicate next so she knows what the new ground rules are.

She'll want to test this new boundary to see if it can be breached. And sometimes if you go cold turkey in communication, the aggrieved person gets creative (not in a good way) as a way to manage.

You might feel a surprising uptick in strength once you're in separation mode, and less defensive or guilty or obligated. It could be easier to set a more manageable tone to take on a conversation about fault when you are less invested in who is right.

[ForeverDad]

Also, the truth is her infidelity is a gift to you. It {ought to} zipper down the guilt you feel leaving someone who isn't well.

I'll focus on you.  For millennia infidelity has been a basis to end a marriage or relationship.  No guilt there.  The past is the past, don't kick yourself by thinking, "If only I had done something else or something better."  With a mental illness such as hers there is no blame on you for it having failed.  It was doomed from the start, don't you think?  As for how you're feeling torn right now, some have phrased it, "Why are you letting the other 'rent' space in your head for free?"

[siochain]

Thank you all.

Now I'm a bit on the fence. Is making use of the discovery a good idea or not?

a)Just keep it to myself for my own benefit when feelings of guilt bubble up and to protect myself emotionally from her FOG response, and simply say something like " I think we both know this isn't going to work out, and I've reached my own point where I'm ready to end it and we respectfully go our separate ways.".

or

b) It's been brought to my attention that you're looking around for husbands. I think it's obvious that neither of us are happy and this would be a good time to end it and go our separate ways respectfully.

Which one is better? Would bringing the new finding up likely tame her a bit or likely make her response worse?

[livednlearned]

It's not about whether to bring it up or not ... it's more a matter of how you do (and the intention).

"You're shopping around for husbands and everyone knows" makes it seem like she did a bad thing and now the marriage is over.

"Neither of us is happy. We both know. Here's what I'm doing next" is more about what you've described to us here -- you aren't happy, she isn't happy, neither of you is committed to changing the dynamic (actions v words), contempt and resentment is building and leading to the breakdown of the relationship.

She will likely kitchen sink you with all the reasons why you should stay.

If, when you are out, there is a shift in your strength, and you can manage to be gentle, that would be the time to let her know what you know. "You aren't happy. I'm not happy. We've both talked about divorce. You want to meet someone else and I'm ok with that. It tells me that this is over for both of us, and I think it'll be easier and cleaner for you to meet someone if you're free and clear to date."

Does that make sense?

[siochain]

Hmmm...trying to internalize it all.

So if I went to a hotel or a friend's place, if I could be gentle, I should bring it up?

Because, if I don't mention any specific change in information/circumstance, part of me thinks it would hit harder, as in "you were able to sit at dinner civilly yesterday, and suddenly you're leaving".

The other part of me feels if I do bring up the websites, it gives more for her to go crazy over. "were you stalking me? how did you find out. who told you? who knows? " or thinking" if i look bad now I have nothing to lose and might as well act up"

I'm just so confused.

[siochain]

Also, a couple of people have used the word infidelity. I don't think there's been any. Looking on a site isn't good, but no reason to think she met anybody or even corresponded with anyone. Maybe it was more of "let me see how I feel considering other people since he's probably leaving"

[DefiantRaspberry]

Because, if I don't mention any specific change in information/circumstance, part of me thinks it would hit harder, as in "you were able to sit at dinner civilly yesterday, and suddenly you're leaving".

It doesn't matter. You weren't ready then, at dinner yesterday, but you're ready now. Try and get rid of that guilt.

[formflier]

Hey...something to consider.

Find out whether or not your state allows you to file for "fault" divorce.  I think all states allow no fault divorce now and several states prohibit even claiming "fault".

If you are in a state where fault can be claimed.  Consider using all the evidence you have to use this option.


Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

It kinda seemed like the only thing preventing you from ending this marriage was ... you  

Your guilt about leaving.

Now you have information that lessens that guilt.

From what you've shared here, this information has given you some wind in your sails.

So now you have your clarity.

The next step is a bit about your specific dynamics. She is going to swing into emotion mind and all that goes with it. You two are susceptible to circular conversations (boundaries are in training phase) and you get easily knee-capped by guilt.

It might be better to start with a non-negotiable boundary (babyduck's clean note) and see what happens. If your threshold for guilt breaks and you need this information to help move things along, don't beat yourself up. It was a rocky sea and you needed a paddle.

However, given the way guilt impacts you, and the way BPD scripts tend to go, this might be a good back pocket approach. It's there if you need it, but not the upfront reason for ending things.

So if I went to a hotel or a friend's place, if I could be gentle, I should bring it up?

I think the suggestion is more about not putting yourself in position where you will get circular.

You need to be able to lay down boundaries that you can enforce. "My mind is made up. If you'd still like to meet, let's agree to _______. What I want to avoid is _________. For me, this meeting is strictly to _______."

if I don't mention any specific change in information/circumstance, part of me thinks it would hit harder, as in "you were able to sit at dinner civilly yesterday, and suddenly you're leaving".

This isn't really about her now.

Plan A: clean note.
Plan B: let the sails out a bit, see what comes back. Back pocket info if necessary.
Plan C: back pocket info, no contact, see what comes back.

[siochain]

It seems so much easier when it's theoretical and I'm typing on here.

Tonight I came home, said hi and sat down. Inside, I was done. We sat down and had dinner, then I needed some air and wanted to walk. She came with me and we walked almost in silence.

She tried a couple of times to cuddle up to me and request my hand to hold, then pouted when she sensed I didn't want to.

The shaking came back, as it does when I'm around her sometimes. I put on a comedy to try to make it go away. I tried to laugh at the jokes so I could just get through till bedtime.

It didn't work.we sat there in silence and I didn't know what to say.

Finally, in the bedroom, she started to talk . I did not engage and just let her. There was no circular conversation this time.

I played a game in my mind where I would see how long it would take between pauses for her to start up again. I lay down, looked at the ceiling, closed my eyes, sat up , lay back down, and barely said anything at all.

She started out doing an upper hand impression. How she wants to be happy and chooses to and I can join her in that or choose to make myself miserable.

She tried to say that maybe I need medication too if I can't pull myself out of this since she didnt "do anything " and we were fine yesterday and now I'm doing this to myself again.

She said I'm not in any danger so I shouldn't still feel like this. That she isn't threatening me or "doing anything " and more about choosing happiness and then the FOG started.

How she's not going to the hospital again and how she won't be able to sleep now and how exhausted she is from not getting to sleep on time etc etc. That's when I said NO MORE OF THAT. NO MORE BLAME.

She justified just a bit and then stopped because I stayed silent after that.

Then she started about doesn't she get a goodnight kiss. Then she put up her hands and said I don't want you feeling pressured to. Then pouted about it and started saying how i always gave her a goodnight kiss why would I think tonight is different.

She started sobbing and saying all she wanted was a kiss from her husband and how any normal situation this would be default regardless of what was going on.

Finally I said goodnight and she pouted .

I dont know how I'm ever going to be able to pull this off, short of just escaping and then calling and doing it over the phone.

I've been in all sorts of difficult situations, including confrontations. This situation for some reason has been my kryptonite.

I just want to run away. I don't know why I feel so scared.

[babyducks]

siochain,

as I am reading along with livednlearned I am nodding my head in agreement.

I like what she did to clean up my suggested note.   

and I really like how she explained the thinking behind it.

I dont know how I'm ever going to be able to pull this off, short of just escaping and then calling and doing it over the phone.

I've been in all sorts of difficult situations, including confrontations. This situation for some reason has been my kryptonite.

I just want to run away. I don't know why I feel so scared.

my guess, and its only a guess, is that in some way this reminds you of a situation where you were powerless.  a situation where you had no control over what was happening to you.     it might not physically resemble the previous situation but emotionally it feels the same to you.      that's actually pretty common for many of us here.    the situation with our pwBPD triggers memories and patterns of something that happened in our past.     it's okay to put that aside for now while you deal with the immediate stuff.

you don't actually need leverage to get out.   you are in control of when you get out and how you go.    you can do this.     you don't need to worry about the perfect set of words, or crafting just the right message, or saying it in the exact right way so that she understands.     

what do you think about having a goal of delivering a message that goes as far as it can to making you feel safe, and adds no trauma to your situation?

how would that look to you?     the message that livednlearned edited for us:

its been obvious for a while that neither of us is happy in our marriage.   I want us to let each other go.   I will be _____fill in the blank________ moving out,... contacting a lawyer...ending our marriage... starting a trial separation  (state what you will do and then do it).    I want to ____fill in the blank again_________ move on, ... have a cooling off period,... have time to myself.

does that feel safe to you?    could you deliver that?   what would you need for that to feel comfortable for you?

'ducks

[siochain]

I think I could say it over the phone from a safe place.

I keep thinking that a written message might trigger her feeling the need to find me so she could have her say.

[babyducks]

I think I could say it over the phone from a safe place.

do you have a safe place lined up?   

[siochain]

Yes there's somewhere I can stay that a friend agreed to let me rent monthly for as long as I need to.  I've been coming here and sitting alone at  peace unbeknownst to her.

Another friend with a van said he'd come by and help me move everything of mine, which isn't that much.

There are 2 days a week she works away from home starting early.