Trust vs privacy and bpd

[Wife struggling]

I’d like some opinions on a current situation I have going-

My husband and I have been going through some issues since we had our son 9 months ago. He says I pushed him away when I was going through post partum depression which I have since been treated for. I did start a lot of arguments in that time.

He had a new female coworker in our age group who started during that time and pursued a friendship with her. Over time, he started to develop feelings for her and I could tell by the way he invited her to everything and stopped confiding in me. He says nothing physical has ever happened and that hes attracted her personality and isn’t physically attractive to him. However, because I’ve been so suspicious of this relationship- I’ve searched his phone and found he’s searched how to know if you’re in love with a coworker, how to know if a coworker is attracted to you, and how to not want to cheat in a marriage.

He works with this person in a small office and I don’t suspect that will change. He’s angry that I invaded his privacy and says he isn’t attracted to her anymore. I feel I can’t trust him and feel he should be willing to show me his phone, especially if he plans to continue this friendship. We are separated at this point and trying to work on things related to his bpd.

To be clear- his argument is that he was trying to figure things out in his own and that he didn’t want to tell me because it would upset me and he knew nothing would ever come of this attraction. He feels his phone is his personal space and I should never look and he isn’t willing to budge in this issue.

My argument is that if you are doing something you don’t want me to see, you probably shouldn’t be doing it. He could look at my phone any time and it wouldn’t bother me. How can the trust be rebuilt if he’s going to be so private? Especially when this friendship is going to continue. I don’t want to continue a relationship where he isn’t willing to be completely open.

I realize that there are obviously other issues related to the bpd but I don’t see how we can move forward if we can’t agree on the foundation of this issue. I’m not willing to proceed until we come up with a happy medium but neither of us can see where that is.

The privacy vs trust issue is really a sticking point and I’d like to hear what other people say about this.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

How did he respond to your apology for violating his personal space?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Hey Wife Struggling,

I read all of your posts and I believe it would be helpful for you (and us to get to know you) to read the article below and get your reactions.



 Article to understand what it takes to be in relationship


Can you share some first reactions to the article?  What was new to you?  What have you known for a while?  What did you read that you are struggling with?


In one of your posts...you mentioned keeping boundaries are hard.  Can you share some boundaries you are attempting?

How is your post partum doing now?  It's good you can point to that as the starting point of decline in the relationship.  Describe relationship repair attempts for this and how did they go?

I want to assure you that you have found a group of people that "get it".  We can help you understand and cope with the dynamics at play here.

Best,

FF

[Wife struggling]

FF
thank you for taking the time to see my story. I really struggle with the ability to detach myself from the emotional roller coaster. When he’s good and loving, I see the way it used to be. That lasts for a couple of days and it’s downhill from there. When he goes into what I call his depression, I really let myself get into a negative mood and it’s easy to become defensive. Emotional strength for me is improving now that I have my space but every time we’re together, he knows exactly what buttons to push. As time has gone on, I can tell on his face the minute his mood turns sour. One of the boundaries I’ve set for myself is that I don’t deserve to be treated with unkind words. I have been removing myself and my son when he goes into rage. When he starts saying he wants other women and is alone and has no friends, I try not to engage. This is really hard because those things are hurtful and have affected me. It’s difficult to disentangle and not let the negative words impact the good times.

I am really a take charge type of person when in crisis and the last several months have been constant crisis. I don’t want someone controlling my life in this way. I’m not ready to let go of this marriage because the last 10 years really were amazing. I don’t know what expectations are realistic at this point. Thankfully my son is too young at this point to understand what’s going on but I worry about him as well.

I’m struggling to understand what’s going on with him and where to draw the line with acceptable and unacceptable behavior in someone with bpd. I want to put him in the “normal” category because things always seemed that way before baby. The reality is, this is not normal. I’m feeling like I need to kiss our old relationship good bye in my mind and imagine this one as a new person. I’m grieving the loss of what we had and don’t know if I can accept that this is what life will be.

Is it reasonable that he should have privacy on his phone after the emotional affair?
Is it reasonable that he doesn’t FaceTime our son when he says he’s going to?
Is it reasonable that he makes plans with me and the minute his friends are doing something else, he bails on me to hang with them because he’s worried he might miss out?
Is it reasonable that he acts completely normal and fun around his coworkers and friends but with me the swings are extreme? And when he’s down he can put up such a façade and be perfectly happy and outgoing?

These are things I’m really struggling with and knowing what’s acceptable with someone with bpd. Learning to approach him is also a steep learning curve because I’m a reactor and approach things head on.

Thanks for taking the time.

[formflier]

What did you think of the article?

What questions does he ask of you?  (the is it reasonable questions)

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

My kids are grown now but the baby years were really difficult in terms of my marriage. I loved the baby time with the little ones but things were very difficult for me in the relationship.

I spent a long time trying to figure out what was going wrong for us. As far as my H was concerned, it wasn't him, it was all me. I tended to believe him, because I was the one who grew up in a very dysfunctional family. His looked fine- on the surface and he didn't assume he had any part in our issues. So I began to look into my own family background with a seriously BPD mother. While my H and she are different, we seemed to repeat some similar patterns that I observed between my parents and it was puzzling until I learned that we can repeat patterns between generations. So while ours was "mild" in comparison to my parents' situation, it wasn't mild to me.

One thing I came across that helped was the Karpman drama triangle and how someone can take "victim" perspective. I learned over time that things I said or did were interpreted by my H as me doing something terrible to him. I had a lot of nausea during pregnancy and due to that was less interested in intimacy. I assumed my H could see that someone throwing up isn't "in the mood" but in his mind, I was "rejecting" him on purpose and purposely witholding affection. So his response was to reject me back. To me this seemed to come out of the blue as I had no idea why he did that and he didn't tell me, so I reacted by getting upset and things continued to get worse.

I could not understand why sometimes he would get angry at me, or worse, do the silent treatment for days. I never intentionally tried to be hurtful and was certainly willing to discuss things but he wasn't. I can see now that it was some kind of interpretation of something I said or did as "rejecting or insulting" him when it had nothing to do with him. Of course having an infant and small children changes the dynamics- as a parent we are less available as the baby care takes so much time. We asume the other parent understands this, but they may also be thinking something different.

I noticed your H said you "pushed him away" when you were depressed. You didn't push him away. You were dealing with depression- but this is how he saw it.

You ask about your boundaries- is it reasonable to ask to be spoken nicely to? Is it reasonable to expect your H to be faithful to you? These are boundaries- our boundaries reflect our values. If these are the values you based your marriage on, then of course, they are reasonable. We can also expect to be with people who respect our boundaries. But what I found is that, when someone is feeling like a victim, being hurt and hurting back- as per the Karpman triangle - they truly believe their behavior is justified in the moment. But we don't have to believe that.

You seem to be more certain that you can uphold your boundaries than I was. Growing up- this kind of pattern seemed "normal" to me. I was expected to accomodate my BPD mother's moods and wishes, allow her to be verbally and emotionally abusive. While I knew her behavior wasn't "normal" because it was so extreme, I still didn't know I could stand up for myself in other relationships and I was so afraid of disapproval of others. Before anything could change - I had to work on this for myself.

There were some things that helped, in addition to counseling and 12 step co-dependency groups for me. For one, I learned that two people can see the same thing and perceive it differently. Maybe I am preoccupied with something. To my H, that might look like I am ignoring him on purpose. It's not true but if he thinks it's true, he would react to that. For one, I had to hold on to my own truth about my motives, who I am - regardless of what someone else is thinking. I can't change someone's thinking. So I stopped JADEing, trying to explain myself. I also had to learn to not take things that were said in the moment personally. Yes, they are hurtful, and one doesn't have to tolerate being spoken to that way- but saying something mean doesn't make it true.

I don't tolerate abusive statements or the silent treatment- from anyone. If this happens, I will stop talking, leave the room.

I am going to address some of your questions:

I’m struggling to understand what’s going on with him and where to draw the line with acceptable and unacceptable behavior in someone with bpd.

You draw the line with the behavior, not the diagnosis. I don't know if my H meets any diagnosis. My BPDmother does. I do know that I had to allow her to treat me poorly growing up and this then led to allowing this in relationships. The solution is for me to not tolerate it, not have this depend on the other person.


I want to put him in the “normal” category because things always seemed that way before baby. The reality is, this is not normal. I’m feeling like I need to kiss our old relationship good bye in my mind and imagine this one as a new person. I’m grieving the loss of what we had and don’t know if I can accept that this is what life will be.

I agree that the grief is a part of this. You do have the right and the choice to decide if you can accept this or not. This is an individual decision that everyone makes according to their own circumstances.

Is it reasonable that he should have privacy on his phone after the emotional affair?

Again, this is about your boundaries and your responses. We can't really control another person. You can have the password on his phone but he could buy another disposable phone. People will do what they do. On your part, you need to decide if you can tolerate this or not. I know this is a tough one to deal with, but you really can't control if he's speaking to this person or not.

Is it reasonable that he doesn’t FaceTime our son when he says he’s going to?

Again, you decide what is reasonable and what is not. He is going to do what he is going to do. If he's not a reliable parent- then that is something to consider for you.

Is it reasonable that he makes plans with me and the minute his friends are doing something else, he bails on me to hang with them because he’s worried he might miss out?

Same as before. If he breaks plans with you, you can decide to not make plans with him.

Is it reasonable that he acts completely normal and fun around his coworkers and friends but with me the swings are extreme? And when he’s down he can put up such a façade and be perfectly happy and outgoing?


 Why the facade? I think it's due to low self esteem and a poor sense of self. In my BPD mother's case it's also a manipulation. For me personally, I don't like the facade. I prefer a real person. Your H is a real person. Sadly he probably feels he needs to put on the facade to get love and attention, but that's not the same as being loved for who he is. This "emotional affair" you mention. It may appear she's getting the good side of your H. Consider this- she's getting the fake side. Right now they are probably in some form of mutual idealization. He's loving the attention - but that's like a steady diet of junk food.

My own story is that I kept trying to make things better until I just couldn't any more and I emotionally withdrew, not on purpose - it was too much for me to manage. I focused on the children. My H realized at some point he was invested in the marriage and began to make efforts, but the patterns continued, and then I decided to make personal changes in my own enabling behavior- as that was contributing to the issues. I also learned to accept that in ways we are different people and perceive things differently. However, we both are aligned with certain values.

We did not deal with infidelity though. I don't know where that would have led to. My pep talk to you is to hold on to your boundaries and your values. Don't excuse abusive or hurtful behavior. Ultimately you both have choices when it comes to the relationship. Either your H is in it or he's not. You do have the right to decide what you want to do about it. We don't tell posters to stay or to leave as everyone's situation is unique and each person has to make the best decision about that for themselves.

[formflier]

One thing I would ask Notwendy to consider and share her point of view is if there is a line between "working on herself" and "showing leadership" or perhaps "being a good example"?


I ask this because one of the observations I've made is that pwBPD usually react badly to attempts to "control" or "teach" them things.  (perhaps we all do).

Yet I have noticed that people that "work on themselves" and in doing so "provide leadership/good example" tend to have their relationships improve.  

For a long time this didn't seem fair to me (and I still struggle with it sometimes).


Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I am not sure I would call it leadership but it did involve a focus on me- not the other person. One of the things my 12 step sponsor had me do was not use the word "you". It is akward at first but rather than say " you need to do this, or stop this" it was " I am not able to deal with this right now" and then remove myself from the conversation.

Another one was to learn to "stay calm" in the storm. First of course it was established that I was not in any physical danger, that's a different situation. It also didn't mean tolerating behaviors. It meant that if the other person was angry, making accusations, I would be able to keep control of myself, even if this meant I needed to take a moment to myself. It mean being less emotionally reactive and not adding fuel to the situation.

Emotional regulation is an issue for both partners. While one partner might be processing their emotions outward- projecting, raging, being angry, often it is the other partner managing their emotions by appeasing. This doesn't seem to make sense as it appears we are managing the other person's feelings but what it actually is - managing our own discomfort with their upset by trying to appease them, walk on eggshells.

Perhaps the "leadership" comes from holding the boundary- not enabling another person to be less than they can be. Sure, we all get upset and say and do things in the moment, but I don't think some people aim to be abusive- they may be acting out in the moment, but it isn't what they truly want to do.When we hold the boundary we in a sense teach others how to treat us. Now, some people are truly abusive and aim to do harm, that is something we have to distinguish. 

Yes, it does seem unfair to have to do this kind of work when the other person doesn't seem to be doing their part. I felt that way too. However, this is a little like the Red Hen story in that, if you bake the bread, you get to keep the bread. The skills I learned- these are mine and they help in other relationships as well- difficult co workers, a teen age child who is acting upset, a difficult boss and so on. Being a people please and having fuzzy boundaries didn't help in these situations either.

We can not change another person, but there are certain dynamics between people that we get a sense of familiarity in, and when when we change our behavior, the dynamics change and it feels uncomfortable. The other person then has to adapt. This might fit into the leadership idea- if you change and the other person is committed to the relationship, then they may change their behaviors in a new pattern. Of course if they are not, they might choose to leave. That's a risk for any change.

Dr. Phil had a great line in one of his shows to a family with dysfunction. " You are all lost in the woods and looking at a dysfunctional person to lead you out". The whole family was reacting to this person's moods and feelings on a moment to moment basis. In this case, it might be better to change the focus. You lead yourself out of dysfunction ( not necessarily the relationship) and the other person might decide to follow.