the insatiable needs of a BPD mother

[Depression = 72% of members]

Our D25 is currently in distress at Uni.  She's a grad student with - wait for it - what could in all likelihood be a PD roommate.  The room mate recently saw a psychiatrist, and the room mate reports he (psychiatrist) ruled out bipolar.  But the room-mate didn't reveal anything else from the psychiatrist.  D25's distress was acute (I recognize an amygdula in the red zone), so we offered to D25 that we could come support her.  This is a two day 16 hour drive.  She said yes, which in itself is a statement since D25 is very independent. So we are with her now, in a hotel suite, where we can support her, cook for her, and where she can feel safe, away from the roommate.  The roommate has threatened suicide.  D25 is afraid to come out of her bedroom when she is in the house with the room mates.  Trust me when I say that does not at all fit the profile of our confident self-assured, logical daughter.  There are also two other room mates in this arrangement (4 girls living together in a house).  D25 is currently under a Dr's care, taking anxiety meds, and also seeing a psychologist.  The 4 girls have been living together for almost two years.  Everything about the drama described by D25 with the roommate screams of PD, and she ticks every box included in the DSM manual.  But I realize I'm probably overly tuned into BPD, and this is likely confirmation bias.

Meanwhile my BPD mother (85yrs), is back in my hometown.  She lives independently (frail, needy, and exhausting for me).  We have no other family.  She refused assisted living almost two years ago (she qualified for it).  She's got macular degeneration, she's half deaf, heart issues, multiple mini strokes, Parkinson's, she's had two hips replaced, one knee replacement, back surgery, uses a walker, generalized anxiety, probable PTSD, uBPD, and according to my contact at public health, probably pathalogical demand avoidance (hence the refusal for assisted living).  That's a partial laundry list.  I just received a text from mom (out of the blue...the first one I've received since arriving to D25's city), and the text says "am making ginger snaps with great difficulty".

Really?

Two years ago, I think that would have triggered multiple strong negative emotions in me. Today I just laughed.  Needless to say, I'm going to ignore that text.  Is that wrong of me?

Am I a bad person?

Can anyone else relate?  

[Methuen]

Our D25 is currently in distress at Uni.  She's a grad student with - wait for it - what could in all likelihood be a PD roommate.  The room mate recently saw a psychiatrist, and the room mate reports he (psychiatrist) ruled out bipolar.  But the room-mate didn't reveal anything else from the psychiatrist.  D25's distress was acute (I recognize an amygdula in the red zone), so we offered to D25 that we could come support her.  This is a two day 16 hour drive.  She said yes, which in itself is a statement since D25 is very independent. So we are with her now, in a hotel suite, where we can support her, cook for her, and where she can feel safe, away from the roommate.  The roommate has threatened suicide.  D25 is afraid to come out of her bedroom when she is in the house with the room mates.  Trust me when I say that does not at all fit the profile of our confident self-assured, logical daughter.  There are also two other room mates in this arrangement (4 girls living together in a house).  D25 is currently under a Dr's care, taking anxiety meds, and also seeing a psychologist.  The 4 girls have been living together for almost two years.  Everything about the drama described by D25 with the roommate screams of PD, and she ticks every box included in the DSM manual.  But I realize I'm probably overly tuned into BPD, and this is likely confirmation bias.

Meanwhile my BPD mother (85yrs), is back in my hometown.  She lives independently (frail, needy, and exhausting for me).  We have no other family.  She refused assisted living almost two years ago (she qualified for it).  She's got macular degeneration, she's half deaf, heart issues, multiple mini strokes, Parkinson's, she's had two hips replaced, one knee replacement, back surgery, uses a walker, generalized anxiety, probable PTSD, uBPD, and according to my contact at public health, probably pathalogical demand avoidance (hence the refusal for assisted living).  That's a partial laundry list.  I just received a text from mom (out of the blue...the first one I've received since arriving to D25's city), and the text says "am making ginger snaps with great difficulty".

Really?

Two years ago, I think that would have triggered multiple strong negative emotions in me. Today I just laughed.  Needless to say, I'm going to ignore that text.  Is that wrong of me?

Am I a bad person?

Can anyone else relate?  

[Mata]

I can totally relate to that text...you are not a bad person!  Ignore it and focus on D25!   

I hope that D25 can find alternate living arrangements.  That may feel daunting, but I am a strong believer that it is perfectly fine and healthy to avoid chosen relationships with people with a PD.  I feel somewhat stuck with my mom, since I didn't get to pick her.  But, friends, romantic partners, roommates, etc. I see no need to put myself through it. 

Good luck to you and D25! 

[Notwendy]

I hope your D is OK and I agree- she needs a place where she feels safe. Since there are other roomates, I presume they also are concerned about the behaviors of this roomate? I don't know what your D's obligation to the lease is, but I hope she can find a better situation when possible.

 I am glad that you mother's comment about the ginger snaps didn't get you too upset. I think it's quite a moment to realize that something that used to be upsetting doesn't have the same effect. It's not you, it's who she is.

[P.F.Change]

I just received a text from mom (out of the blue...the first one I've received since arriving to D25's city), and the text says "am making ginger snaps with great difficulty".

Haha that is sort of a funny choice of words. My first thought was, "Wow, good for her, persevering through a challenge"  :D And then I thought, good for you not snapping over ginger snaps!

It's not wrong and you're not a bad person for choosing to focus elsewhere right now. Cookies aren't an emergency, and there are other people that could validate the difficulty of baking for her if she really needs that.

I also wouldn't discount your intuition about your daughter's roommate. Sure, confirmation bias is real, but so is your experience. If I were in Japan and heard people speaking Lithuanian in a cafe, I wouldn't know it was Lithuanian and I wouldn't understand anything, because I've never studied Lithuanian or its relatives. The people around me would be unlikely to understand it, either. But if I heard them speaking Irish, I'd know it was Irish, and I'd understand a fair bit, because I've studied a little Irish. I'm not a native speaker, but I have some syntax and vocabulary and experience listening to native speakers. Yet, the people around me in the Japanese cafe would be even less likely to understand or recognize Irish than Lithuanian, since Lithuanian has about 3x as many speakers worldwide. They might have to guess whether it was a Germanic or Gaelic language based on how it sounds. I don't know everything, and there are far more languages I don't know than languages I do know, but I wouldn't doubt what I recognized. Now, if it were Scottish, I might only be able to tell you it's very similar to Irish. I would understand cognates but perhaps not much else. But I'd still know it's in the same language family.

While I agree it's ideal to leave diagnosis to the professionals, you have BPD as a language, you understand the patterns, you've "heard" it used in your daily life. It's reasonable that you could recognize those behaviors, or related cluster B traits, even if other people can't identify it as clearly or make sense of what's being "said." It's ok to trust your intuition on that.

I'm glad you were able to go support your daughter, and I think it's good that you will be able to offer her some tools for coping with her roommate's moods and behaviors. I'm also glad she has some professional support for herself. I hope everything will work out with the least difficulty possible. 

[pursuingJoy]

Methuen, you're a loving daughter and it's ok to ignore your mom's text about ginger snaps.  Meanwhile, you're also a GREAT mom and I love that you were able to be there for your daughter in a time of crisis! Agree with PF Change - your instincts are attuned. We can't diagnose, but we can respond in appropriate and healthy ways. Trust your gut.

Keep us posted on your daughter's situation. Big hugs.

[beatricex]

Is that wrong of you?  no
Are you a bad person?  no

why do we second guess ourselves so much?  So full disclosure, a few days ago I texted then called my Mom and told her "stop Emailing us!"
 
I said "I am on the computer all day for work, I don't want to read 100's of emails from you!"  (she was love bombing me, she is having back surgery in a month and wants to ask me if I'll watch her dog, so sends me no less than 10 emails telling me happy birthday, happy birth month, asking multiple times, did I go out to dinner?  where did I go?  Asking for pictures of my birthday outing)  holy crap, this is a person who never cares unless the convo is about her.  It was too much.

The worst part about it, she did that "Poor you...oh gosh a lot of people feel that way."  and I pretty much jumped down her throat and responded with "I AM TALKING ABOUT ME, NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE"



so, no, ignoring a ginger snap text is not mean.  Neither is what I had to do.  she stopped, I finally have peace

hugs
b

[Methuen]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  The encouragement helps.

I guess it gets tiresome to always have mom phrase things where I am supposed to feel sorry for her, or help her, or rescue her.  Her victim perspective wears on me.  Everything is always phrased in a way to make me feel like I need to help her more.

So D25 is improving every day we are here with her.  There is a tentative plan, and a tentative plan B, but a lot hinges on the decisions of the room mate having the mental breakdown.  Everyone is hoping she chooses to take a leave from school, and go home and get help (which she reportedly acknowledges she needs), but at the end of the day, she can choose to stay (they're in a lease), and no one can "make her" do what she doesn't want to do.  At any rate, we are still in the hotel with D25, and she is coming around. Meds, separation, and our support are helping.  We have offered to help her find a new place to live.  But she doesn't want to desert the other room mates, and she has a 6 week clinical coming up that is out of town, so there will be separation should the ill room mate decide to stay. 

Meanwhile, back home, I sense uBPD mom is feeling neglected since we are out of town withD25.  Will have to deal with that too when we get home in a week.  D25 has told her we have come to help because D25 is overwhelmed with school demands.  Mom is suspicious, and instead of accepting a "need to know" approach, is reportedly feeling left out.  D25 is quite private, and doesn't want her gramma to know all her business.  Sigh.

[pursuingJoy]

You're a great mom, Methuen. So glad you can be there for D25. Sounds like there are several viable options for how things might work out.

Meanwhile, back home, I sense uBPD mom is feeling neglected since we are out of town withD25.  Will have to deal with that too when we get home in a week.

Seems people with BPD have a super-sense way of knowing something is up. Do you have a plan for how to respond to her when you get back? Would it help to prepare?

[Sylfine]

Oh Methuen!  What you're doing for your daughter is awesome.  And NO you are not a bad person for reacting that way to your mother's text.  I had a similar situation a few months ago.  When my mother accused me of "stabbing her in the heart", it was all I could do not to laugh.  We reach a point where we realize their issues and reactions are ploys to make us feel a certain way.  When we do, we can laugh at those attempts.  (Feel like Saruman - "you have no power here" - but in a good way).

[Methuen]

Thanks for the encouragement everyone.  It helps me, especially when there are reassurances about my responses to my mom.  Yesterday my uBPD mom sent me an email saying "as usual haven't slept yet".  Sigh.  I've learned to use positive reinforcement.  So I ignore these kinds of emails, and always respond to the positive emails. It just sucks to use a strategy on my mother that gets used on children, or in group settings.  I still feel bad doing it, but I know what would happen if I reinforced that behavior, or JADEd her with the evidence. Sigh.

Seems people with BPD have a super-sense way of knowing something is up. Do you have a plan for how to respond to her when you get back? Would it help to prepare?

Well, yesterday I sent an email to her and cc'd it to S27 (who happens to be in our hometown on a previously planned trip away from his home city before we had to unexpectedly leave to help D25) with an "update" that explained our trip to X city was to visit D25 who was overwhelmed with school stress and accepted our help when we offered to come visit.  I kept it simple.  S27 is completely aware of why we came to see D25, but he was concerned his grandma's suspicions were raised and she was plying him for info, but he told her he was unaware of anything but our visiting with D25.  He was worried that his grandma would eventually find out the truth and he would look really bad because he knew all along and "lied" to her by telling her he didn't know anything.  Honestly, the dance we all do around BPD's is energy sapping.  We assured S27 we would never put him in that position, and I think he knows that, but it's another example of the "fear" we all feel in our relationships with pwBPD.
So PJ, when we get home, H and I will stick to the script of simply giving D25 "a place to live where we could cook and clean and do laundry etc for her so she could focus on catching up on all the school work she was behind in".  There's truth to that, since her anxiety about the probable PD room mate with suicidal threats had kept D25 in her room for a week, unable to function (she lost a best friend to suicide 4 years ago so this was a trigger).

Apart from the email, and sticking to the simple script, I haven't put any more thought into it. But PJ if you or anyone else has suggestions for me, I'm all ears... any and all ideas are valued and appreciated. I'm honestly kinda out of ideas for my own situation.  It's so much easier to help other people!

Sylfine!  Thank you for this!  

And NO you are not a bad person for reacting that way to your mother's text.  I had a similar situation a few months ago.  When my mother accused me of "stabbing her in the heart", it was all I could do not to laugh.  We reach a point where we realize their issues and reactions are ploys to make us feel a certain way.  When we do, we can laugh at those attempts.  (Feel like Saruman - "you have no power here" - but in a good way).

This was like a balm for me.

Meanwhile the saga with the room mate continues.  D25 is with us in the hotel until this weekend, but if the room mate comes back to the house after the Easter weekend even after taking a leave from school (the girls' leases aren't over until summer), then the living arrangement remains difficult and tenuous.  

[zachira]

Admiring and respecting you for how you are dealing with your mother and helping your daughter. You have mentionned how you have used radical acceptance to accept how your mother behaves and can't quite accept her behaviors completely because she is your mother. I think you are onto to why her behaviors hurt so deeply. If she were a partner, friend, you could just go no contact and heal completely. It is a life long sorrow to not get the unconditional love everyone deserves from their mother, and I truly believe there is no such thing as complete acceptance of this life long loss. I find it has helped me to sit with the feelings when I am hurt by how my close family members mistreat me. The hurt feelings eventually go away for the most part if I sit with them long enough. For the most part, you seem to not let what your mother does bother you so intensely as before. I do think that never feeling safe, never knowing what she will do next, is so tiring, and you can't help but wish you did not have to deal with another round, yet you know it is coming. I felt relieved when my mother with BPD passed away, and it freed me to love her for the good things about her, without having to constantly be worried about what unsettling thing she would do next. What you are dealing with is exhausting, and we are here to support you. I am glad your daughter has you to help her, and am wondering if being there for her when your mother could not be there for you, in some ways heals your heart from some of the hurt you have experienced with your mother.

[GaGrl]

Zachira, I think you're right about healing through the mother/daughter relationship. My mother was traumatized by her uBPD/NPD stepmother at a young age. She became deliberate in planning how she would and would not "mother" when she had her own family. Essentially, she created herself as a mother, and I so admire that. I don't think she felt free of her SM until death, but I've seen much healing in the past 30 years.

[Methuen]

I think you are onto to why her behaviors hurt so deeply. If she were a partner, friend, you could just go no contact and heal completely. It is a life long sorrow to not get the unconditional love everyone deserves from their mother, and I truly believe there is no such thing as complete acceptance of this life long loss. I find it has helped me to sit with the feelings when I am hurt by how my close family members mistreat me. The hurt feelings eventually go away for the most part if I sit with them long enough. For the most part, you seem to not let what your mother does bother you so intensely as before. I do think that never feeling safe, never knowing what she will do next, is so tiring, and you can't help but wish you did not have to deal with another round, yet you know it is coming. I felt relieved when my mother with BPD passed away, and it freed me to love her for the good things about her, without having to constantly be worried about what unsettling thing she would do next. What you are dealing with is exhausting, and we are here to support you. I am glad your daughter has you to help her, and am wondering if being there for her when your mother could not be there for you, in some ways heals your heart from some of the hurt you have experienced with your mother.

Thank you Zachira. The support on this site is worth a million dollars.  I remember how isolated and alone I felt when I landed here.  I just could not believe there were other people who shared a form of similar experiences, and could understand.  It's worth a million dollars.  For me it is sorrow and disappointment. Occasionally it's also exasperation and despair.  But most of the time it's just the daily wear and tear, to always have to put the energy into "managing" myself, her, and my responses to her, not to mention reasonable "prevention" measures where they make sense. Sorrow says it all.

"Sit with the feelings".  I see this a lot on this site.  I think this means allow ourselves to cry, express ourself to ourself, and move or progress through the emotion.  Don't stuff it.  I used to stuff my frustration and anger, and pretend that I was stuffing my distress, and I fooled myself for a lot of years.  Meanwhile, my relationship with my mother deteriorated, because I was "stuck" and didn't understand  her or the disease.  If "sit with the feelings" means more than that, I'm interested to hear more.

I think two things have helped me heal the most.  The first is probably this site.  The second would be the support of my H.  When I can't handle taking my mom to another appointment (she has a Kzillion of them - they're like her "outings"), he steps up.  When I'm not confident about the wording of an email or text, or a "plan" of any kind, I run it by him.  I asked him to come to T with me, because I thought the education and support from a professional would help give him the knowledge and experience to support me. So yes, being able to support my daughter through these kinds of life experiences feels good, but it isn't the biggest factor in my healing.  #1 would have to be this site.  Other people that "get it".

Meanwhile, the room mate has continued to deteriorate in the two weeks D25 has been with us at the hotel.  As our departure date for the drive back home approached, D25's anxiety came back, even with the meds.  She is fearful of finding the room mate dead.  So the new plan is for H to drive home alone (2 days), and me to stay with D25 up to another 3 weeks, when her final exams will be over, and a 6 week clinical out-of-town will start.  When D25's clinical starts, H will drive back to fetch me.  The girls are hoping the room mate is getting outpatient treatment, but nobody really knows because she's not talking.  She's reportedly on a leave from school.  It must be awful for her.  It's just really hard for everyone.

[Methuen]

Tonight D25, H and I Facetimed with S27 and Grandma (uBPD mom).  She made a big deal of thanking S27 (golden child) for grocery shopping for her once while he was visiting over Easter, and proudly annouched she baked cookoies for him for that.  She also announced she baked cookies for H when he gets back into town.  H then asked her if the person who grocery shops for her all year (i.e. me) gets cookies too.  The silence was deafening.  The rejection never stops hurting.  I do SOO much for her.  BPD is such a wretched disease.  Tonight it hurts again.  Tomorrow I hope will feel better.

So Zachira, when I reflect on this, I guess it does help that I can be there for my daughter in  a way that my mother couldn't be there for me.  It's a relief, knowing that I am different than my mother.

[zachira]

So sad you were treated like that by your mother. It seems one of the biggest challenges of BPD mothers is seeing their daughers as separate people from them. It is like you are invisible to your mother, no matter what you do. A hug and hoping you are feeling better now.

[pursuingJoy]

methuen ugh I'm so sorry. Those hurtful moments crop up out of nowhere sometimes. If we had time to prepare, we could at least steady ourselves.

I wish your mom was able to lift you up and encourage you as you pour into your daughter. I'm so glad you're breaking the cycle and creating a different experience for your daughter and future generations. What a legacy. Keep it up, m. You're doing an incredible job.