justification junkie

[Imatter33]

Any tips that anyone has about ways to stop being a justification junkie (with everyone) would be much appreciated.

The instantaneous compulsive dread  to justify my boundary, my reason, my right to  say no, my right to anything without guilt...is ruining my life.

ANXIETY times 1 million every day.

Must unlearn this toxic survival technique from childhood.

[yamada]

Start by stopping...I understand the justification..but stop  and see what happens. I learned to ask people who wanted me to just ify by asking them "do you want to understand or argue" or "you don't have to worry, I am happy with my decision" and finally when I was asked why was I driving one way to a destination instead of the n"better way" I said because it makes me happy.  Sometimes it takes practice..not to do it or to deflect..or even to find the words to shut it down

[Duped_312]

Yamada above me said something really interesting: “when they were asked to justify…”

Bc your original question wasn’t about other people asking you, it was you saying you have this compulsive need to do so. But I love what Yamada said Bc it is true. I think we don’t realize how often people do ask us to provide justifications on a daily basis. Everyone is always asking why did you do that, or why are you going this way, or why did you say it like that, or what’s your problem, or why are you telling me this… I could go on forever. I also can understand justifying a boundary. But as people on this site have told me in my posts, justifying a boundary doesn’t make it a boundary, nor does not justifying a boundary discredit the boundary. The boundary isn’t there for someone else it’s there for you. So that was some good advice there I will include.

Add that to the fact that, if you’re anything like me, I justify things a) to make a different perspective very clear.. which ok that sounds innocent enough,  but also b) to make sure the other person doesn’t get away with feeling nothing about whatever’s going on— typically this was reserved for my BP fiancé and this is the version I let trickle into life outside of him. I justified every effing thing I did or said or every toxic comeback I had or exposure I was making about him or confrontation I was making about his bullsh*t. I justified everything I said ad nauseam. You decided to drive around for hours and leave me here w two babies by myself and then text me 3 hours later “need anything?”, so guess what, you come home and get attitude and I’m somehow the one out of line, why am I being b*tchy?  Um ok Bc you’re a selfish prick. And since you asked. Here’s what I need, I need you to stop being a waste of space while I sit here and apply for loans for you, and do your laundry and cook your dinner and fold your underwear and make sure your stupid wipes are in the bathroom.  And we’d go on.   Bc I was just going to let him do all that and say nothing? And not justify my attitude? Couple that with his incessant complaining and guilting and we were……..  less than ideal from a health standpoint .  It is very toxic and addicting snd becomes really compulsive Bc like you said in your post it’s like a mechanism like a defense thing and a hyper sensitivity coupled with anger and resentment. It’s very hard to deal with. I don’t have BPD but sometimes I am very cognizant of how his behaviors trickled down to me and brought me to his level. How do you just stop that overnight? My relationship did essentially end overnight so I am still adjusting to the “outside” so to speak. The opposite of all that is I go mute. I will literally say nothing. I would sit there for two hours sometimes just staring at a blank th screen while we “talked” about some issue. Having full conversations in my head, but just refusing to speak. So you either got word venom, or muteness.  I’m very damaged.

 The thing is though I don’t WANT to justify necessarily. But like what Yamada said, we are ASKED to justify… like on a daily basis. And that really clicked for me. Bc I think in some cases yes we over explain and over-offer and people are like ok cool story but like can we go to the mall now but other times, it is Bc we are asked and I feel like that is the real trigger.  Why are you wearing that why are you so dressed up why did you cut your hair I liked it the other way why are we going to this store and not that one why did you order salad are you starving yourself …   

I really like the suggestion above to say Bc it makes me happy. I can’t think of too many scenarios it wouldn’t work in. I’m definitely going to try that. And it still would work when people DONT ask for a justification and you just feel compelled to offer it up, Bc you can just substitute your explanation with it. I know I look dressed up sorry but this outfit makes me happy today so let’s go.

What do you think about all that

[beatricex]

Imatter33,
Good question.

I do really think it just happens by dumb luck.

One day (or decade) you are justifying.  Then, after awhile, you feel the need less and less.  Then after awhile you don't think and say "oh that's a pretty red flag...maybe it's attached to a mascot...maybe I should chase it..."  You just see the red flag and go "meh" "red. I always hated that flag color"

Then, after awhile, like years of practicing distancing yourself from toxic relatives, after making conscious efforts to "unlearn" what you've learned (the forks go UP in the dishwasher and the knives go DOWN)...and then after maybe posting to a website called "Voicelessness" for a decade, and after it gets shut down cause of trolls, and then finding another great website (BPD family), and posting to it for like a year or so...

You become aware that the drama is really not that addictive, and you have a pretty good life, and you have a pretty good husband (or family, or dog, or I don't know, view of the street - just find a positive)...what do you need that justification thing for anyway?

And it becomes less and less of an issue for you.  And it becomes less and less YOU.  Cause you found yourself.  Your real desires.

Justify my boundary?  what?  what did you say?

Lately, I just avoid people that would make me do so.

Hope this helps at least create a visual for you.  I'm a pretty good daydreamer.  Maybe that's the secret?
b

[Methuen]

Hi imatter

I hear you.  It's been a compulsion for me too.  I've spent much of my life explaining.  In a way, it was part of my job description , and  I had a uBPD mother where I fell into the trap of explaining, justifying, and defending before discovering this site, and having to unlearn those strategies and replace them with new ones.

Any tips that anyone has about ways to stop being a justification junkie (with everyone) would be much appreciated.

1) Change of topic?
2) Silence or perplexed look, and "let's talk about something else for now".
3) "Hmmm.  I have to think about that for a while. Let me get back to you" (which you may or may not do in the event they forget about it if it happens to be petty. If it's more serious, it slows things down and gives you time to "think" before responding).  
4) Flip it, and ask a question:  What do you think?  What makes you think so?  Why do you think that?  Get them to do the work explaining.  

I think the first step is awareness "in the moment".  When I started having "awareness" of my JADEing after finding this site, it often came after the event when I was reflecting back on what happened.  It got quite frustrating because I was always realizing after the fact.  

A really good piece of advice I got from my counsellor was to "slow it down".  Instead of reacting (justifying myself or otherwise JADEing), take a deep breath first (think 3-4 seconds breathing in and 3-4 seconds breathing out).  This gets oxygen to the brain for thinking.  Then wait a few more seconds to respond, during which time you can be thinking about what strategy is best to use for the situation ("let me think about that and get back to you", or try changing the topic).  This way, it becomes possible to have awareness "in the moment", instead of beating oneself up afterwards because we fell into the same old trap of justifying.

Be kind with yourself imatter.  It takes a while to change these lifetime habits.  But the first time you respond differently, it might feel a bit foreign, and maybe even a bit uncomfortable, or alternatively, it might feel great and you'll know you can do it again, and again, and again...

Sometimes it's a bit of trial and error to figure out what response can work in different situations.

It's still a work in progress for me, but I think I'm better than I used to be.  You've got this imatter.  

[yamada]

thanks Duped... My husband taught me to not justify..That I could say no without a long winded explanation..So I practiced. "Yes"  "No"  holding my breath waiting for someone to ask me to justify it, my decision and guess what..50% of the time no one did!
 So practice, practice, but start on the easy ones..
Do you want a receipt? ..No thanks...
Do you want a bag  with your groceries? no thanks,
Do you want sugar yes or no thanks...

and after a while, you start thinking  "why do I need to justify my answer they don't care".  
The justification was once a survival tool to survive the BPD toxic people.
Most times people want to understand my reasoning and that's why I ask especially if a dodgy person "do you want to understand or make an argument?  Most people want to understand.
And finally, some of the best answers I give are 'because it makes me happy", or "I like it/dont like it" or because I want to ...and isn't that enough and if isn't...its the other person problem, not yours

[Imatter33]

Hey thank you everyone. I need to revisit answers because I do appreciate all of the good feedback within.

I wanted to explain what I do by giving example.

My MIL states she wants to stop by. Does not ask, but just states it.

Firstly this makes me upset because I don't have good boundaries (in the first place) and when I read  that tiny sentence I was triggered to feel less, by just the wording?

I would have felt  more positively if she had just included a question mark. "Hey sweetie, mind if I stop by?" At least it doesn't assume.  She's also not the type of person to teach anything. I can't say you need to ask differently... Not worth it.

That is neither here nor there. I did not want the visit, even if she had included the question mark.
 So I told her in a text thank you for the offer but I was good and see her tomorrow.
Kind and to the point.

But... then I justified my reasons to my husband in a frantic word mess. And he said, "I don't need all that. No is fine." (usually when it comes to his family and me asserting myself I am afraid he will not see where I am coming from.) And I guess this isn't true all of the time. I am just so scared of  (perceived or actual disapproval)  and I am tired of it!  And I have been justifying within my own FOO for so long I don't even know it happens.

He went back to work.

And my brain beat me up for a long while.

Again like I said I will revisit all the wonderful advice you all have given.

SO to recap,
I sometimes justify to the first party.
I sometimes justify to another party after I don't justify to the first party.

Some of my fellow BPD family members are so eloquent in there writing and explanations. I hope you could follow what I am saying. 

[yamada]

Ok...maybe next time ask him if he wants to know why and if he doesn't...no problem..I so understand the urge to justify,,,

[bethanny]

2 Recovery Techniques to Manipulation Traps (such as questioning or shaming or intimidation or obligation, etc.) are Negative Question and Negative Answer.  Whereby you either redefine your choice calmly and ask the one asking for their justification what their issue is and put them on their hind foot, not attacking their judgment but not endorsing it, either. Live and let live opinion-wise. Or you simply assert that is what you are going to do, even if they spun their observation about you negatively.  Just agree that yes, that is your choice.  Period. Sometimes they feign confusion in terms of what you have decided to induce you to reconsider and change your decision. It is not apologizing for yourself, simply admitting you want to do what you are going to do and standing by it. 

Love this advice:  "The word no can be a complete sentence!"

Boundaries are so hard for me. Mine are often either way too soft or way too hard.  I need to keep practicing making them a comfortable weight and size!

[pursuingJoy]

Imatter, I can relate to your example. My BPD MIL would announce that I was taking her to Target

Not justifying feels weird and counterintuitive and it comes with practice. Our decisions were questioned, and so we were conditioned, and now we're trying to undo it. Look how brave we are! 

What a great thread. Thanks to all who have shared your thoughts. I really needed to hear this today.

 

[Harri]

Hello!

Boy can i relate!  I used to and sometimes still do act as judge jury and executioner at my own trial... and i discovered the battle maybe triggered by another person but that battle is all me. 

I have found over the years that separating out my triggers and taking responsibility for my own reactions is what has helped me to work through all this 'stuff' that adds stress and upset to my life. 

What i said above is not to suggest that triggers are just in our head (though they sort of are) and are to be ignored in favor of others (cuz that would be what we grew up with right?).  Rather, you/we/I?  need to first focus within, realize we are in trigger territory and only we have the ability to get us through that.  The focus, I believe, ultimately needs to be on us to enable the potential for change and healing.

So what if, instead of focusing all of the time and energy on how the other person triggered us or how the other person is rude, etc, acknowledge it (in our own head), and then focus on how we respond.     Look at your reaction and see if you can tie it to childhood (usually the answer is yes) and then ask is that affecting my response now?  If it is, then turn the focus on you.  Stay away from inflammatory words like manipulation.  Manipulation was a huge trigger for me and still can be so I am super cautious about using it.  I am not saying that as a kindness to the other person.  Rather it is a kindness for myself and a step towards healing from the childhood history and changing my almost automatic response.  Trying to respond rather than react when we are emotionally triggered is a huge struggle but one, I think, vital to real healing.  The trigger may always be with us but it does not have to rule us or drive our behaviors.

What does that mean?  For me, that meant fighting to stay in the moment and not being dragged back in time emotionally to when I was reacting in ways to survive as you said Imatter.  Come up with a focal point, whatever your goal is in terms of lessening this trigger so you can respond rather than react.  Assume no ill intent (for most people) and respond in more neutral ways.  Keep in mind that while you may not like the way you feel when triggered, the fact that you are triggered and how you behave in that context is not always related to the person involved.  They may or may not be trying to manipulate you.  Regardless, the point is to get a handle on your own emotional reaction IMO.  Even if their behavior is not kind, or has some negative connotation, if the point is for you to get control of your reaction, focus on you, use more neutral words and allow yourself the emotional space to process and choose your response.

On the relationship boards, we have a saying:  Before things can get better, you have to stop making things worse.  The context of that statement is different over here on PSI but I think it applies and I have used it to work my way through conflict with others but always my internal conflict between the past and the present.  For me, when I was triggered, focusing on the fact that I was triggered and looking at the behavior of the other person had very limited value to me.  Focusing on me and my goal was instrumental in changing me and my own crappy thought patterns and reactions.

I am not saying you have crappy thought patterns though.  I did, y'all may not so your mileage may vary.

I feel like I have left huge gaping holes in my response here so if you want Imatter, we can break this down a bit more.  What I am saying may not apply, or it might.  It is hard to tell here.  I do think the focus needs to be more on you though, and you have been doing that very well.   

Keep up the digging and searching Imatter!  Still love your name btw. 

[zachira]

The best advice my therapist ever gave me was to focus on how I was feeling inside when triggered by another person. It has helped me to limit more the endless focus on the person who is acting badly, and to focus on my feelings until the uncomfortable ones are replaced by more peaceful feelings.
A big challenge is when we are still in contact with the person or persons who treat us badly, usually because this person or persons are family members. It is hard to heal when we are still in contact with them, and for many different reasons, total no contact is not always an option at the time.
Imatter33 you are not alone in trying to stop being a justification junkie. Maybe a kinder way to put it is, you want to stop trying to understand and find ways to answer back to people's malicious behaviors when it does not serve you or help them to be better people and instead focus more on your well being with responses that do not get you more emotionally upset. Most of us who are mistreated by family members are empaths, and we want to understand and be kind to others. This empathy serves us well when we are dealing with people who can appreciate our empathy, and can be a time consuming emotional trap with unsafe people.

[Methuen]

My MIL states she wants to stop by. Does not ask, but just states it.

Oh man, this describes my mom too.  She doesn't consider the other person, just states what she's going to do because it's good for her.  Sometimes she doesn't state it first.  Just shows up.  Pre-pandemic, she was showing up unannounced almost every day.  Zero boundaries or consideration for others.

Perhaps the trick is to break the pattern of her "telling" you when she is coming, because for you, this probably feels like a form of control (which it is since she isn't asking you but telling you).

Since your MIL is "stating" it, could you reply...?  "Oh! You just caught me as I was heading out the door, so it'll have to be some other time.  I'm running late, so I've gotta go now. Could we talk about this later and set up a mutually convenient time for you to come over? " Then because we don't want to be untruthful, or lie, grab your umbrella or your keys, and do an errand.  The way I see it, this reply communicates to her that now isn't a good time, and it sets a boundary which also provides a solution - to set up a mutually convenient time.  

If she says "but it'll only take a minute..."

You (repeat) "gotta go!  I'm running late!  Bye for now!"  No explanations.  No justifications.

 

My BPD MIL would announce that I was taking her to Target

This made me laugh.  H and I get an almost daily dose of what he or I need to do for my uBPD mom.  She doesn't know any other way.  Just a real lack of social skills, and consideration for others.  She seems to have "0" awareness...

So here's the thing imatter.  I used to do everything mom told me she needed, because I wanted her approval, and her love.  Short version: I was a doormat, and as she aged and her health deteriorated, she used her needs to control me and my life.  It didn't matter how much I did or how well I did it, it was never ever going to be enough.  And the more time I spent helping her and trying harder, the more our relationship deteriorated.  Things got way out of control, she was really mean and abusive, and I hit my bottom.  That's when I realized she was never going to change, and the only way I was going to get my life back was to stop reacting to her, and change me and how I responded, because that was the only thing I could control.

So this from Harri really spoke to me:
"the point is for you to get control of your reaction, focus on you, use more neutral words and allow yourself the emotional space to process and choose your response...Focusing on me and my goal was instrumental in changing me and my own crappy thought patterns and reactions." yes yes yes

Before I joined this forum and started my "recovery journey" towards better thought patterns and reactions surrounding my mother, I was stuck in every leg-hold trap my mother had learned to use on me.  And I was miserable.  Amongst other things, my mom used to say things I referred to later (to my H) as "barbs" to suck me in to her negativity, her drama, her need for conflict.  Like you, I too felt the need to "justify".  I was a master JADEer.  My current situation with my mom is a bit different than yours - my mom is 85 and anybody who looks at her or spends 10 min talking to her could tell she shouldn't be living on her own. She's a huge risk to herself for a laundry list of reasons.  She was assessed for assisted living and it was offered to her, but she refused to go on the waiting list.  I never dared to try to talk her into it,  although I was present when the offer was made.  That was about 1 1/2 yrs ago.  Last week, we were having a decent conversation on the telephone, and out of the blue she says "I have something to tell you. In a suddenly angry vicious voice, "the turn" happened, and then this:  "Jane's daughter (Jane is mom's best friend) told her mom she shouldn't be living alone anymore and wants to put her in a home!". Her voice and tone and words put me into instant panic-reaction mode.  I was reeling - racing brain, frozen muscles, not breathing -just frozen.  The vengeance of the remark was shocking, and it felt like an attack.  Like a deer in the headlights, I said nothing, because in the moment, I couldn't think.  I was telling myself to breathe, and slow down, and wait until I could think. When she got no reaction, and there was only silence on my end of the phone, she really didn't know what to do with that.  She said "anyways, that's enough" and ended the conversation, and I said "goodnight, have a good sleep" and we hung up the phone.  My point here, is to support you in your choice to stop justifying yourself all the time to everyone.  You don't have to do that.  In fact, when we do that to some people including high conflict personalities, it just escalates their bad feelings and the conflict.  Sometimes just "no" or "no thanks" or "now's not a good time", and maybe a change of topic is good enough.  Or "Now isn't a good time because I'm just on my way out, but let's set up a time that works for both of us later" (and then follow it up by actually setting up a mutually agreeable time).  Or sometimes, like in my example, the simplicity of "silence" may work.  Anything to break the pattern.  Once at a particularly difficult time where I was feeling both physically and emotionally unsafe, I had an escape plan (running shoes at the front door), and when she showed up at the back door angry, I quickly slipped into my shoes and quietly went out the front door and disappeared into the bushes (this was a few years ago when she was more mobile).  She never found out.  But the pattern I worked to change, was to not be available for her rages, her abuse, or to have her needs met 24/7.  It's been a process with lots of ups and downs, but mom seems to have received the message that I am not her servant anymore, nor am I available 24/7.  She still gets plenty of support from H and I (a lot more than our friends with aging parents).  You've got this imatter.  We're totally here for you.  

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