Marriage Counseling and a Realization

[Guts42]

My wife is uBPD.  I suspect it.  My therapist suspects it.  Our kids therapist suspects it.
As far as I know, my W has no idea.

We had our first couples therapy session the other day.  I'll admit, when the session started I didn't feel great.  The therapist started with each of us telling her what we think is wrong in the relationship- specifically realting to the '4 pillars.'  My W was all over it.
"He doesn't listen to or respect me!  If he would just listen we wouldn't have any problems."
"... i feel like I'm missing something.  It's like I hear her but I don't understand what she's saying.  I feel like there's something else going on and I don't understand-"
"See!" She cut me off.

As the sessions continued I started to feel better.  The discussion shifted away from blaming me for everything to personality types and communication styles.  We each read two of the four types listed and some descriptions.
I immediately identified with "passive."  I admitted that I let "people" walk over me and I might even subconsciously hold some resentment.

When the therapist asked my W to identify her default comm style she froze.  She reluctantly said "passive but sometimes when I'm hurt I go into passive aggressive."  I held my composure but wanted to burst into laughter.  She read, out loud, the traits of "aggressive."  Some of the examples just happened!  (Blaming, you statements, talking over, etc)
Of course this wasn't the time to debate that so I didn't say anything.

We then talked about how to use an 'assertive communication style when talking about things that bother us.  I LOVED it!  It was refreshing and practical and I felt... hope?  We went over some guidelines and practiced a few things.  She gave us homework and some research to do... I was all for it!  I told her about books I've read about attachment theory (Hold Me Tight for example) and how it made sense... I may have geeked out.  It was just so nice to have a professional give us rules and guidelines for communicating!

... my W was bored out of her skull and it showed.  It was like my enthusiasm was feeding her indifference.  This was over zoom so there was a small thumbnail of us.  I took note of our postures throughout.  By the end I was resting my chin in the v shape of my left thumb and forefinger, taking notes with my right hand.  My W had leaned back and was resting the side of her head in her open palm looking aggressively disengaged... like a student waiting for class to be over.

The call ended.  She turned to me.
"I'll do this for you but just so you know I'm bored and don't want to do this.  I'm not saying it's stupid but my brain just doesn't want to do this.  I don't do well with structure and homework."

And then it hit me...
I'm HOPING she has a personality disorder.
If it is then in some ways her behavior isn't her fault... not an excuse per se but some kind of explanation.
Otherwise she's just a mean and manipulative person... and there's even less hope of this working out.

[Skip]

The biggest reason marriage counseling fails is because the couples are looking to fix the other person or be shown to be right (and the other wrong).

"He doesn't listen to or respect me!  If he would just listen we wouldn't have any problems."

This is a common complaint. Let her air it out for a bit. The T gets it - he will see that she is volatile. Therapy takes time and the beginning sessions are about keeping her engaged, letting the T get a read, etc.

She is probably not going to engage until she feels the T is trying to help her.

The hardest part of this type of therapy for me is accepting the beat down and the reluctance by the other party to listen in the beginning... but its important not to replicate the same dysfunction we have at home in the therapy session. Someone has to give...

Tall order, I know.

[Ventak]

"He doesn't listen to or respect me!  If he would just listen we wouldn't have any problems."

It has taken me 3-4 months of intensive immersion into what went wrong with my marriage to BPDw, to come to an understanding that this was true in our relationship, why it was true, and what I could do about it.  The way my brain works... if someone tells me something needs change, or I learn tools to change.. it will only deliver short term results.  To gain a long term change I have to truly understand what is going on.  I'll try to explain the steps that my journey took, let me know if you think this could be applying to your situation.

I read an article on BPD and fear which showed MRI of people looking at pictures of other humans with very neutral expressions.  On "normal" people, the scan was completely grey.  On BPD diagnosed people, the amygdala was inflamed, meaning they were experiencing intense fear.  They did a similar experiment with people by showing a scene to invoke fear.  After the initial fight/flight response, the "normal people" had their processing part of the brain become "inflamed" while the pwBPD was engaged, but "cool".   So you are most likely dealing with a person who experiences fear where none exists and can not "process" their way out of the fear into a state of rational logic. 

The result of this is for my BPDw is that she would escalate into a realm that to me is not grounded in reality.  But to her, it is completely reality.  My response to data that is clearly incorrect is to fix it, and I would always go down that path... believing that once she saw what was so clear and obvious she would get back to my reality.  This will never happen... But what will happen is that she will, in fact, not be heard.  This will, in fact, invalidate her feelings.  This will, in fact, be disrespectful to her.  I did this over, and over, and over, and over.  Even though I suspect I was correct 98% of the time, that does not change the reality that to her I was disrespectful, to her I was not hearing her, to her I was invalidating.  I believe this is where JADE and SET become tools I can use to create a better environment and dramatically reduce escalations.

One other thing that helped give me empathy.  In playing or watching sports I get triggered when something isn't "fair".  Once that happens I become extremely emotional, and all I want is for someone to agree that the unfairness occurred.  If I get that validation, I calm down.  If I get an argument on why it was valid by someone I can become enraged and lash out at them.  I try to understand that this is what my BPDw goes through frequently, sometimes with zero justification.  But that doesn't change her perspective.

I don't think I'm defending my BPDw's actions, but I do think I understand them better and can make changes in my communication that could dramatically improve our relationship and rebuild trust that has eroded over the years.

Please let me know if any of this resonates with you.

[Notwendy]

Smart T to stay with subjects that are less accusation and more reflective. Don't be surprised if the T works on you, and avoids labelling your wife. As much as you want the BPD label on her, it may not lead to any good in this context, and your wife is likely to shut down and refuse T altogether. However, if the session focuses on her airing her complaints about you, and the T working on your "passivity" your wife may eventually be responsive to some suggestions - not blame or labels, but gentle suggestions- maybe, but that is better than nothing.

A T can also help as a moderator when things get heated, and provide some tools to reduce drama. It may be that you get more out of this than your wife, but any skills you can learn can reduce the drama in your interactions- not just with your wife but in other relationships as well.

The fact that your wife said she is willing to do it for you is actually a better outcome than if she felt targeted and refused.

Skip makes an important point. Going into MT expecting the other person to be labeled and change is not likely to bring as much success as going into it looking at your part in the issues and how to change that for the better.

[Guts42]

Absolutely, my focus is working on my communication style/ability.  I tend to just let my W rage and verbally assault me until she gets tired!

I had a fleeting thought when I noticed my W's disengaged posture... "If nothing else these skills will help me in another relationship."

The particular T has worked with W before.  My W fired her after she was called out on some self fulfilling prophecy behaviors... so I was surprised my W was okay seeing her for us.  However, the appointment was made about a month ago during my "you can go but you better not!" episode and I suspect my W was wanting to have a therapist validate her position that I shouldn't go (she'd tried two other Ts but they said I should go).

I think my passivity is totally something to work on and I'm happy to do it!  I too am hesitant to have someone label my W.  If it were something she'd come to herself then she may be open to talking about.

[ForeverDad]

Mentioning a suspected PD doesn't go over well, it can be counterproductive.  Even courts don't want us to relive our childhoods and try to Play doctor.

In the final months before my separation and divorce I did attempt to seek marital counseling, did my research based on the person having a degree.

I tried to do it perfectly the first (and only) time trying joint counseling.  I thought being female and having a degree would make a difference for my ex.  It didn't.  Ex refused, even said she'd sue.   But then-stbEx said she'd attend session to "help" ForeverDad in counseling.  Good thing the director said No to that.  But after 3 sessions all that got done was FOO questions about my history and absolutely no suggestions about how to deal with my increasingly high conflict spouse.  Looking back, I can't believe I went 3 times with no helpful suggestions whatsoever.

I didn't even learn about Personality Disorders until 3 months before our abrupt separation, I had called the local university hospital seeking a home visit and the man on the phone said, "Sorry, no can do, you live just outside the county limits, but sounds like a Personality Dysfunction."  My subsequent internet searches opened my eyes wide.  And this was months after I'd been to a lettered therapist for three visits and all the T wanted to do was delve endlessly into my FOO background, not one suggestion about my ex's extreme behaviors in 3 sessions.

Wow, re-reading that post I now realize I had found a therapist (inner issues) and not a counselor (dealing with the situation).

Understand that some of these resources can have the perspective that a couple should keep trying no matter what and it will all work out.  That's excellent under normal circumstances with reasonably normal spouses but when you're dealing with an acting out disorder and the other spouse is refusing to apply good counsel... well, it could be sabotaging you, though intended well.  After all, even the oldest book around recognizes there is divorce.  A wise person will accept that some relationships just can't be fixed if both aren't working to make it successful.

Remember, if your spouse doesn't cooperate, you can end the attempt at marriage counseling as failed.

[BrokenHubby]

This. This is spot on Ventak.

If only I had come to these boards sooner I would have been able to change me and maybe, just maybe that would have been enough to take the heats out of things so they could get better.

I think this is part of the reason why they get so angry, the rages, why that hate is so deep. Doesn't make it right, but it does help explain things. If only will be something I'll be saying for a while yet...

The result of this is for my BPDw is that she would escalate into a realm that to me is not grounded in reality.  But to her, it is completely reality.  My response to data that is clearly incorrect is to fix it, and I would always go down that path... believing that once she saw what was so clear and obvious she would get back to my reality.  This will never happen... But what will happen is that she will, in fact, not be heard.  This will, in fact, invalidate her feelings.  This will, in fact, be disrespectful to her.  I did this over, and over, and over, and over.  Even though I suspect I was correct 98% of the time, that does not change the reality that to her I was disrespectful, to her I was not hearing her, to her I was invalidating.  I believe this is where JADE and SET become tools I can use to create a better environment and dramatically reduce escalations.

One other thing that helped give me empathy.  In playing or watching sports I get triggered when something isn't "fair".  Once that happens I become extremely emotional, and all I want is for someone to agree that the unfairness occurred.  If I get that validation, I calm down.  If I get an argument on why it was valid by someone I can become enraged and lash out at them.  I try to understand that this is what my BPDw goes through frequently, sometimes with zero justification.  But that doesn't change her perspective.

Guts42: All the best with T, but as others have noted working on what you can change is so important, I think when she see's the signs of that then T may be more effective but as so many posts on this site state you have to be the change first, even though it doesn't feel right or may even slow down or stop a long term marriage from going under. Feel for you as I am in a similar situation.

[worriedStepmom]

What are your goals for the therapy?  Are you trying to improve the marriage, or just yourself?

Are you still planning to pursue divorce, or are you hopeful that this might make divorce a moot point?

[Guts42]

What are your goals for the therapy?  Are you trying to improve the marriage, or just yourself?
Are you still planning to pursue divorce, or are you hopeful that this might make divorce a moot point?

My primary goal is to sort out where my head is and gain some clarity of the situation.  I'm not sure if that's possible...
Hoping that by being honest with myself and in therapy, genuinely utilizing and practicing the skills the therapist is trying to instill in us I'll get some sort of better view of what's going on here.  For example if I'm utilizing all the prescribed approaches and she's still manipulative and mean...

It's too early to tell but W did verbally slap me the day after therapy:
I've been fighting a sinus/lung infection for a few weeks now and my doc put me on a heavier antibiotic.
The stuff works but it tends to drain my energy.  As a result my W has actually been stepping up her interaction with the kiddos... which she mainly attributes to her recent start on Adderall.
I thanked her for keeping the kids entertained so I could recover...
"Of course... it's been nice without YOU TRYING TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME!  WE HAVE THIS FIGHT ALL THE TIME!  You don't let me do ANYTHING AROUND HERE!  So it's been really F#CKING NICE that you haven't been in my way."
I must have looked shocked... because she then half heartedly back tracked...
"Oh well that came out meaner than I meant... well it's all true but I could've said that nicer... how did the therapist tell us to say it..."  She managed a very sarcastic "I feel this way" statement and then dropped it.

Am I naïve..?  Other than that incident, for the most part she's actually been great... someone please tell me I'm being gullible for thinking this Adderall might actually work..?  (I know... different thread!)  My friends keep telling me she hasn't and won't change... it's just so hard to see that right now.  I know, I've been here before... this is just another calm before another storm.

I'm keeping divorce in my back pocket.  I've reached out to a few local attorney's to at least do a consult- working on schedules now.

[mart555]

My primary goal is to sort out where my head is and gain some clarity of the situation.  I'm not sure if that's possible...
Hoping that by being honest with myself and in therapy, genuinely utilizing and practicing the skills the therapist is trying to instill in us I'll get some sort of better view of what's going on here.  For example if I'm utilizing all the prescribed approaches and she's still manipulative and mean...

I highly recommend this book:  https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/1442238321

[Skip]

If Adderall is working that is a good sign.

A lot of disoreders look like BPD. Did you read this?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-borderline-personality-disorder

Why does your wife prescribed Adderall?  ADHD?

... for the most part she's actually been great... someone please tell me I'm being gullible for thinking this Adderall might actually work..?  (I know... different thread!)  My friends keep telling me she hasn't and won't change... it's just so hard to see that right now.  I know, I've been here before... this is just another calm before another storm.

pwBPD traits are at their worst when they are stressed. They are not difficult all the time.

I'm keeping divorce in my back pocket.  I've reached out to a few local attorney's to at least do a consult- working on schedules now.

While I think it is wise to know your legal position just in case, if you both go to therapy with a "I outta here if she/he doesn't get better" then chances are low there will be success.  You both have to want it to work.