A raft in the middle of the ocean

[alterK]

Third or fourth attempt at having a serious talk with my W since I started reading the books and participating in this forum. We’ve been married 13 years, more or less estranged the past 3. It’s the 3rd marriage for me, 4th for her, so obviously neither of us is God’s gift to conjugal relations. We’re still living together, sleeping apart, still talking about non-controversial subjects, having reasonably friendly sex, but keeping much of our lives separate and giving each other little emotional support.

We both have anger underneath the surface, and have made little or no progress solving mutual problems. She frequently tells me she isn’t feeling good, has headaches and other physical symptoms. My attempts to offer sympathy or comfort don’t seem to cut any ice, and I no longer ask for comfort from her. We’re both retired. She has few outside activities and is jealous of mine.

Yesterday I told her it feels like we are adrift on a raft in the middle of the ocean, with no land in sight. I said we could argue forever about how we got on the raft. Did we fall off a ship? Did it sink? Whose fault was it? And that would do absolutely nothing to change the fact that we were here right now, drifting on raft, in the middle of the ocean.

I said I thought we had three choices: We can stay on the raft and continue drifting, counting it a good day when there are no big waves or storms. How long can we survive this way? Not indefinitely. Second, we can each put on life vests and swim off in whatever direction we choose and hope for the best. Third, we could agree that we wanted to try to find land together, try to agree in what direction that might be, and start paddling together. It might not turn out to be the right direction, but at least we’d be making an effort. I told her I would prefer the third choice, and asked her what hers would be.

To my surprise, she responded positively to the raft story. Agreed that was how she felt. Then she went on to list her grievances, 10-15 minutes, all the times she believes I mistreated her in the past, her standard response when we begin this kind of conversation.

This time I was very careful. I’ve heard the list often and had rehearsed the conversation in my mind. I listened patiently and did my best to look attentive and concerned. I am not trying to sound sarcastic, but anyone who’s been here knows it isn’t easy not to get provoked. There are always one or two new items. The pain they have caused—always my fault—is described in detail.

I kept myself from responding to any of her complaints, even when I knew it was a verifiable certainty something she described wasn’t what had actually happened. Instead I heard her out, acknowledged her distress, and brought her back to the raft story, the appropriateness of which I reminded her that we’d agreed upon. I kept nudging her, as gently as I was able, into to the present. I know this is tough for her, because past sadness, and hurtful memories—many dating from long before we ever knew each other—are very much alive for her. It’s almost as if her basic image of herself is of The Person Who’s Been Mistreated, and to give up that idea would be to give up a part of herself.

I repeated that we couldn’t change the past. All we could control was the present and the future. I asked her whether in her heart she wanted to stay with me or separate. I reassured her that I did want to stay together and that I still loved her, but that I'd accept her decision if she said she wanted to leave.

She kept giving answers that sounded evasive, but I eventually realized that she truly was unable to decide. And it seemed to me a major reason for her indecision was a kind of hopelessness, and that this in turn was due to very limited problem solving skills when it came to this intimate relationship. Unhappy as it was, she still felt safer and more in control this way, drifting, than she might if we started paddling.

Don’t get me wrong. My W is an intelligent person with good verbal skills, and when she is in a work-type situation I have seen her deal with complex problems in a way I admired, and which earned her the admiration of others. Yet in our marriage her problem solving skills and imagination seem to desert her, and I think this has to do with being overwhelmed by deep and complicated fear. BTW, although we have had some nasty verbal arguments, we have never escalated to physical, neither threats nor acting out.

My therapist had advised me that what I needed to do was to try to reassure my W and try to make her feel safe (if possible) and not complicate things by attempting to problem solve. But I decided that I had to move the conversation in a more specific direction, because my W truly couldn't imagine how to go forward, or was too afraid, and the only way to give her any hope would be if I did the work.

I suggested that we decide on a time to talk next week about one of our main bones of contention, our dog. No need to go into detail here about that one. Then I suggested that we both start writing lists of things we thought needed to be changed in order to improve our marriage. I emphasized that this should be in the present and future tense. No past complaints. I said we could hear each other’s lists and then see whether we could negotiate, maybe not to a point of perfect agreement, but at least to something we could both live with. To my surprise, she agreed calmly to my suggestions. Even wrote them down.

So, what’s my point in telling this long story? First, I guess, is to share some—very limited—success. Un-manly as it may be, I read the books and Followed The Directions, and…it kinda worked. (For the moment, at least. Who knows what tomorrow will bring?)

Second, I’d welcome suggestions, if anyone cares to make them, for where to go next. I think I can anticipate many of the items that will be on my W’s list, and I need to be able to respond in a way that’s as straightforward and non-threatening as possible, even to things I don’t agree with.

Then I need to write my own list so that it includes what’s important, without making it something that she’ll react to as a criticism or threat. Huh? How do you do that? What kinds of things can you say to a uBPD person to ask for, suggest, offer change, without getting her hackles up? I myself haven’t been super-successful, but I suspect this is an area that many here have struggled with, and perhaps have learned more from their mistakes than I have.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

generally speaking, people with bpd traits do not have the skills to do the sort of thing youre talking about...to see the situation in entirety, to see whats necessary to resolve the conflict, to decide if its possible, to follow through on it if it is, to consistently and mindfully participate in building trust. its...a lot of hard work, for anyone, really, and that much more when youre working through resentment. so im not surprised to see that shes undecided, or that she can situation as you do, but has a hard time knowing what to do with it.

its why we are the emotional leaders. we wont necessarily have an equal partner in that regard, but we may, ideally, have a loved one who will follow our lead.

i think you have a solid perspective here, and approach. it had to have taken a lot of hard work to get there.

so, what do you think her list will look like? what will yours?

[alterK]

Thanks for the kind words, once removed. Sadly, I fear you’re right to say “we are the emotional leaders. we wont necessarily have an equal partner in that regard, but we may, ideally, have a loved one who will follow our lead.”

You ask about her list and mine. I’ll try to answer without getting involved in dismal detail. Many of these items will likely be on both lists.

First, the dog, a pit bull/lab rescue we’ve had less than a year, still a little wild. Questions about care, responsibility, how to train him. She says I should “re-home” him because he’s too much trouble. I want to say, “I haven’t yet done that with you!” but have so far restrained myself.

How to keep the house. She has ongoing resentment. I feel nagged. To her I’m a slob who won’t keep things clean or orderly and neglects jobs and maintenance that needs to be done. To me she’s a neat freak who’ll only do what she considers women’s work (basically, cleaning—she never cooks, gardens, etc.), resents even that, and leaves everything else (from changing light bulbs to major repairs) to me.

Family. I have 2 sons in their 40’s, both in stable marriages, one with teenage step-children, the other with a 3 year-old. She has 2 daughters in their 30’s, the older one still hasn’t settled on a stable job or partner, the younger one is mentally ill, living alone, unable to work. No grandchildren, unlikely to have any. Thus, another source of resentment for her, which she expresses by saying I don’t understand the stress she’s dealing with, and how chaotic it is when my kids visit. Whoops. I’m complaining. Will stop.

Guests in the house. I can’t remember the last time she invited anyone except her daughters, and she doesn’t like my having friends here. Thinks they’re an imposition, even forgets when I’ve discussed a visit with her ahead of time and gotten her agreement.

My outside commitments. I play in 3 ensembles that rehearse weekly, fall through spring. Do volunteer work that occasionally takes me out of town. She, having little productive work to do, is jealous, but hasn’t made any effort to improve her situation.

She wants privacy, which boils down to wanting me to agree she can close the door to the nicest part of the house.

She’s stressed about money. This is complicated. Our finances are mainly separate and I contribute a lot more than she does to mutual expenses like heating oil and electricity. But still her stress is my fault. She may want something having to do with this.

Here are a couple of items I’d add to my own list:

Going out and doing things together. The pandemic, of course, makes this much more difficult, but it’s not impossible. Aside from same day surgeries when you have to have someone drive you, it’s been probably 2 years since we went anywhere for fun.

Touching, other than just for sex. Things like hugs and sitting close together.

Big one: her hair-trigger anger. I’ve worked on my responses, internally and externally. Still, it often makes discussing simple matters very difficult. Don’t know what can be done about that, except to keep working on my strategies and hope it may diminish if other things improve.

Sorry if it sounds like I’m whining. It’s hard to be dispassionate about these things.

[once removed]

many, if not most of these things, are (not to minimize them) garden variety marital conflict/disagreement.

granted, they add up to a lot more than that, and are indicative of, if not how conflict is approached/resolved, the fact that it mostly isnt. all of it just builds resentment.

so its probably not as easy as "find a middle ground" for any given issue, because there really needs to be trust in order to establish what that might be. it sounds a bit like one party wins when the other gives up, but that resentment doesnt go away.

it is possible that unilaterally giving some of these things up (let her close the door to the nicest part of the house, or lead and pick up the slack in terms of keeping the house) would demonstrate good faith and build trust, as part of a broader effort.

Touching, other than just for sex. Things like hugs and sitting close together.

this might be a part of that broader effort.

im guessing that sex still exists. that definitely counts for something (and i cant understate that; it would suggest there is still agreement, more or less, on a pretty key thing). but if affection doesnt much exist, it suggests there isnt necessarily intimacy. there may not be intimacy because there isnt trust and theres resentment. its kind of a chicken and the egg thing, and men and women tend to have very different ideas from each other on this stuff.

is there romance? i assume youve tried initiating the touching(?). is she, historically, an affectionate (touchy) person or not?

[alterK]

Thanks for the reply, Once. I’ve decided to go as easy as possible on her. Modified my list—no need to bore you with all the details—and presented her with things I thought it would be relatively easy to answer. Then I listened to her points, most of which were familiar, but she did offer them in a calm way, and that was an achievement I gave her credit for.

I was 90% successful in keeping us confined to present and future tenses. She wanted to start us replying to one another but I got her to agree that we should wait to do that, so that we could think everything over and not react too emotionally. Maybe this will work.

Truth is, I haven’t a lot of hope. I try to remind myself that we got along pretty decently for 12-13 years, and that it’s only been for the past 3+ that things have been quite so bad. I’m 100% convinced that it was my daughter-in-law’s pregnancy that put my W past her ability to cope. I can’t change that, eh? Son and family live abroad, still, I see them several times a year. So there are things she has a very hard time dealing with that I won’t change. Having a plan myself has helped me be more patient, so I intend to keep trying.