Emotional Manipulation and Effective Boundary Setting

[AvaGrace]

Hello! 

I got married a little over a year ago to the kindest, funniest, most resilient woman after a very brief period of dating.  I am a mental health therapist and noticed that my wife had high borderline traits, but assumed the symptoms were a manifestation of complex childhood trauma.  After many fights and an incident of physical aggression towards me, my wife was officially diagnosed with BPD during an Intensive Outpatient Hospital Stay. 

I love her dearly but realize that I am unable to set boundaries around my time, the way we communicate...She discourages me from reaching out to friends, has tantrums when I leave for work or come home late, critiques me frequently, and I am now seeing how much this is affecting my ability to practice therapy with my own patients. 

I have stopped talking to most of my friends and just need to let someone else know and hear what other people do to set effective boundaries without risking a suicidal or self harm gesture (I know it is her choice, but it is not a great experience for me either.)

Any other mental health professionals with spouses who are Borderline? 

Ava

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

Not a mental health professional, but I’ve noticed the tendency for an escalation of demands and acting out behavior when boundaries are porous. How much discomfort are you willing to endure to set limits? What would you tell a client who came to you with this issue?

[thankful person]

Hi Ava,
Welcome, I’m not a mental health professional, I have worked with many people with autism but I find them far easier to understand than my bpd wife. Just wanted to say, my experience has been very similar to yours with the control and my wife is jealous of my work, my friends, my family, and I have given up many things that used to bring me pleasure. I have only found this site a few months ago and especially recently have been learning so much, and trying to put things things into practise. Have you heard of the book, “stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist”? This really helped me. It’s very hard but I won’t give up. The people here are amazing. I wish you all the best.

[AvaGrace]

Thank you for responding and for the guidance.  I DEFINITELY continue to struggle with porous boundaries despite having read Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.  Being a caretaker is so deeply ingrained in me because of my role in my family of origin.  I also am a survivor of childhood physical and emotional abuse, and my marriage is very similar to the ways that my mother once interacted with me.  I am just now coming to terms with the fact that the way my wife behaves when splitting is psychologically abusive.  Ironic, since my patients are perpetrators of physical and sexual violence...

I have a lot of questions about boundaries.  For example, just this morning, my wife became irritated that it took me "6 minutes to get out of bed."  It is her first day going back to work part time.  I told her calmly, "if you choose to speak to me with that tone then I am not going to continue to engage with you until you can speak respectfully." When she continued I went outside to feed the dogs.  When I came back inside, she began crying and asking me why I was doing this to her.  I hugged her and said "it sounds like you are afraid that I don't care about you, and I very much so do care about it."  She calmed down after the hug and reassurance.  I was so relieved that things didn't escalate, but also think I may have reinforced the behavior.  What do you think? 

She has been struggling with her tone, yelling, berating me, and critiquing me for about 2 weeks non-stop.  She has a DBT therapist she sees twice a week, a psychodynamic therapist she sees once a month, and a psychiatrist she sees once a month.  Despite all of this, she got a concussion from banging her head many many times while locked in the bathroom and we had to go to the ER.  On Friday she was making suicidal threats.  I don't know what to do in response, other than leave the house when she splits and attacks me verbally and sometimes physically. 

Thank you for letting me share about this challenging experience.  I would advise my patients in my position to consistently disengage when the behavior begins, but I personally don't want to keep having to leave my house suddenly and spend all day at my office avoiding my wife, or driving around aimlessly until she calms down. 

I have a few BPD patients. It is quite the challenge and all I can do is reinforce DBT skills...

[Cat Familiar]

You’re probably familiar with the MOSAIC test, a screening test to determine level of threat in the workplace and with domestic partners.  MOSAIC TEST

I suggest you take it and find out your score.

It’s understandable that your boundaries are not rock solid after your upbringing. And what a wonderful opportunity to learn how to get clear precise boundaries now (said with an ironic smile as this is also one of my own learning goals) 

So many of us on this forum grew up with a family member who had a personality disorder. When we encounter a romantic partner who behaves in a similar way, it feels like *family*.  Now I’m certain your wife presented behaviors that were the *good* side of what you experienced from your parents, only to present the *dark* side once your lives were more firmly intertwined.

Regarding boundaries, it seems more effective to use *I* language rather than *you* statements. “I’m enjoying waking up slowly this morning.”

No JADEing—Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining.

Your statement is what it is. Period.

Regarding reinforcing her behavior, I’d have to agree with you. By hugging and reassuring her, you deprived her of an opportunity to learn self soothing behavior.

I know, as a codependent, it feels awful to watch our loved ones suffer. Added to that are comments like “you don’t care,“ “you don’t love me,” “you only think of yourself,” “you’re selfish,” etc. Those can really cut to the quick.

But looking at the big picture, isn’t it better to learn to have a thicker skin and not enable habits in our relationship that metastasize?

[khibomsis]

  Ava Grace, sorry for what brought you here, but happy you found us! We got your back.
You can look up GrumpyDonut and LovelyRita's posts. 2010 had some deep insights if you can follow the language  (apt to get a bit technical). Primary health care worker myself and I can tell you nothing you know professionally will help you here. Intellectually you may know its FOO isues but emotionally you need a therapist or coach to work it out.

[AvaGrace]

Thank you to everyone who has replied.  It is wildly affirming.  I have never heard of the acronym JADE and that is helpful! 

My wife has calmed down for the past two weeks.  Hopefully, we will have a while before she becomes upset again.

[AnaisNin]

Hi Ava,

I'm wondering why you feel that your relationship is affecting your ability to practice therapy with your own patients? Is it just too close to home?

I'm also a MH therapist, married to a man with BPD. It's taking its toll on my professional life as well. Mainly because as a therapist, I feel I have lots to give when every other aspect of my life is going smoothly, but when home life is chaos and unstable, it's so difficult to put in my full effort at work. I've been taking lots of time off lately.

Why have you  stopped talking to most of your friends? are you still hanging out with them but just not talking about your relationship?

One big mistake I made is that every time my husband got jealous of a male friend, I would spend less time or cut a friend out. I had a very dear friend who I cut out due to my husband's jealousy. My friend just died and I'm so sorry I wasn't there for him in the end. My husband has also tried to force me to not hang out with another group of friends, however this time I told him I wouldn't cut them out. I spent time with that group of friends on Thanksgiving for 2 hours and my husband became so upset he moved out, stonewalled me and won't tell me where he is. He told me he is filing for divorce.

Obviously as MH professionals, we went into that career because we love helping people. I'm seeing that in order for me to give my best at work, I need a more stable and supportive and peaceful home life. I'm feeling very burned out at the moment.

[AvaGrace]

It is odd that it feels odd to know that there are other mental health therapists out there practicing with BPD spouses. 

I think that my ability to practice is being affected by my marriage in a myriad of ways.  I have found myself wanting to disclose to my patients mundane aspects of my life simply to enjoy telling another person information and not having it critiqued or used against me.  I write this after a particular difficult week with my wife.  I would rather deescalate a homicidal patient outside of my office door than navigate the conflict me being home later than expected because of the unpredictable nature of this profession. 

I am in private practice and my wife sees my practice, and my patients, as competition for the time she feels she is entitled to have with me.  Over the past year I spend much less time reading, following through on professional emails, or working through case conceptualizations. I leave my office as quickly as possible, I don't answer work calls unless the person leaves a voicemail, and I work when my wife is asleep.  It isn't worth the emotional labor to have conflict with her.

Tonight is the first night I have ever not gone home. I am writing from my office at 2am and my wife thinks I am staying in the hospital room with my beloved Grandma, who is very old and sick.  My wife tried to physically restrain me as I was trying to leave the house to go visit my Grandma, and then she chased the car down, refusing to let go of the door handle.  I sat in silence for 17 minutes with my eyes closed while she pounded on the door window of the car (my grandma's car because my wife got into a car accident on Tuesday and we had to borrow grandma's car.) Finally, I yelled at her to let go of the car and I backed out and left.  She texted that she didn't want to be here anymore (parasuicidal) and I texted back that I had been pulled by a cop...that distracted her enough I guess?

I asked my Grandma if she wanted me to stay with her and she said no (small detail I didn't consider).  I just COULD NOT stand to be home with her incessant critques and demands that I "connect with her."  She has woken me up twice this week at 3am to talk about how worried she is that we aren't connected.  She says that I am terrible at communicating and have no ability to express myself in a way that makes sense.  Is that true?  Isn't my job reliant upon at least proficient communication?

I feel like reality is upside down, I fear that my Grandma will die and I will have no one with me.  I fear that my wife will continue to emotionally abuse me, that I won't be able to figure out which boundaries to set, and this one beautiful life will pass by.

I am thinking of buying a house by myself.  I am thinking of moving in with my grandmother if she makes it through surgery on Monday.  I am thinking of taking one night a week to stay alone at a cabin in the woods.  I am thinking I have made a terrible mistake.

I am currently writing a forensic evaluation that is important, yet I can't get through one page of it without another crisis.  My brain is so foggy, my wife doesn't understand what my work means to me.  My wife has so much empathy sometimes, and at other times she seems to be incapable of empathy. 

I don't know what to do.  It is 2:15am and I have accomplished posting this.  This is how my BPD marriage affects my work.     

[babyducks]

Tonight is the first night I have ever not gone home.

I'm sorry AvaGrace.   Have you gotten any sleep at all?   What about eating?  Have you managed to eat anything healthy?

  My wife tried to physically restrain me as I was trying to leave the house to go visit my Grandma, and then she chased the car down, refusing to let go of the door handle.  I sat in silence for 17 minutes with my eyes closed while she pounded on the door window of the car (my grandma's car because my wife got into a car accident on Tuesday and we had to borrow grandma's car.) Finally, I yelled at her to let go of the car and I backed out and left. 

I'm probably going to tell you what you already know.   this doesn't sound good at all and it sounds like things are escalating.   

I am thinking of buying a house by myself.  I am thinking of moving in with my grandmother if she makes it through surgery on Monday.  I am thinking of taking one night a week to stay alone at a cabin in the woods.  I am thinking I have made a terrible mistake.

that all seems like reasonable things to think.   reading between the lines I would say you are leaning in the direction of something has to change, things can't go on like this.    did I get that right?

for me, one of the hardest things of being with my Ex was that I never got a chance to rest.    we lived in constant crisis.    I almost never or very rarely had moments of peace and quiet.   it took quite the toll.   it sounds like it is taking a toll on you too.

I'm wishing your Grandmother well.

[yeethedonut]

It is odd that it feels odd to know that there are other mental health therapists out there practicing with BPD spouses. 

I think that my ability to practice is being affected by my marriage in a myriad of ways.  I have found myself wanting to disclose to my patients mundane aspects of my life simply to enjoy telling another person information and not having it critiqued or used against me.  I write this after a particular difficult week with my wife.  I would rather deescalate a homicidal patient outside of my office door than navigate the conflict me being home later than expected because of the unpredictable nature of this profession. 

I am in private practice and my wife sees my practice, and my patients, as competition for the time she feels she is entitled to have with me.  Over the past year I spend much less time reading, following through on professional emails, or working through case conceptualizations. I leave my office as quickly as possible, I don't answer work calls unless the person leaves a voicemail, and I work when my wife is asleep.  It isn't worth the emotional labor to have conflict with her.

Tonight is the first night I have ever not gone home. I am writing from my office at 2am and my wife thinks I am staying in the hospital room with my beloved Grandma, who is very old and sick.  My wife tried to physically restrain me as I was trying to leave the house to go visit my Grandma, and then she chased the car down, refusing to let go of the door handle.  I sat in silence for 17 minutes with my eyes closed while she pounded on the door window of the car (my grandma's car because my wife got into a car accident on Tuesday and we had to borrow grandma's car.) Finally, I yelled at her to let go of the car and I backed out and left.  She texted that she didn't want to be here anymore (parasuicidal) and I texted back that I had been pulled by a cop...that distracted her enough I guess?

I asked my Grandma if she wanted me to stay with her and she said no (small detail I didn't consider).  I just COULD NOT stand to be home with her incessant critques and demands that I "connect with her."  She has woken me up twice this week at 3am to talk about how worried she is that we aren't connected.  She says that I am terrible at communicating and have no ability to express myself in a way that makes sense.  Is that true?  Isn't my job reliant upon at least proficient communication?

I feel like reality is upside down, I fear that my Grandma will die and I will have no one with me.  I fear that my wife will continue to emotionally abuse me, that I won't be able to figure out which boundaries to set, and this one beautiful life will pass by.

I am thinking of buying a house by myself.  I am thinking of moving in with my grandmother if she makes it through surgery on Monday.  I am thinking of taking one night a week to stay alone at a cabin in the woods.  I am thinking I have made a terrible mistake.

I am currently writing a forensic evaluation that is important, yet I can't get through one page of it without another crisis.  My brain is so foggy, my wife doesn't understand what my work means to me.  My wife has so much empathy sometimes, and at other times she seems to be incapable of empathy. 

I don't know what to do.  It is 2:15am and I have accomplished posting this.  This is how my BPD marriage affects my work.     

Hi Ava.  I know that I can't offer you much in terms of help and I'm sure there's no techniques I can tell you that you don't already know. But I wanted to reach out to you to tell you that you matter, you are important. You have been trying very hard, and none of this is because of you. My view isn't a medical professional one, but it does come from compassion. I see that you are suffering greatly and you are in an extremely difficult position; you can't do this alone. Your wife is very ill and you cannot care for her all by yourself, it isn't possible, especially with the added heartache of your grandmother's condition. All the strong boundaries in the world won't stop what is happening because it takes both sides to have change. She will continue to try breaking down your boundaries, or will break herself trying to. It is now time to try something else, because the current practice of setting strong boundaries is not enough. I understand that she is seeing multiple professionals, but something here is either not enough care for her to produce results, or the professionals may not be the best fit for her particular needs. I know you are very tired, and that taking care of yourself rarely crosses your mind let alone having the time to do so. One of the things I have learned about BPD through years of experience through my mother is that they are extremely reflective; if you are not doing well, there is no chance that they ever will be either.

My point from all this is that I believe you need much more help in caring for your wife; she is not well enough to be cared for by herself, and you have already burned yourself out completely trying to. I understand from your description that she has a poor family situation; however you cannot be her only person and only support. It is possible that she needs more psychiatric help than what she is getting, or that she also undiagnosed comorbidities along with BPD that are going untreated that are making the disorder worse.

However I think the best thing you can ask yourself right now is: what do you need? If you wife was not a factor, what would you need/do to help care for yourself? How would your life look if you could have it the way you like? Further... to be honest with yourself if you can handle more of this, and if you could handle doing this for the rest of your life. If the answer is no, something must change-- and I don't believe from your descriptions that there is anything more you could do for managing your own behaviour that would make any significant impact. Your needs matter just as much as anyone else.

[Cat Familiar]

AvaGrace, I’m so sorry about what you’re experiencing. You are at the point of realization that this is not sustainable, but wondering how you can possibly manage. 

Having married two BPD husbands, I understand the initial attraction to relationships like this. In both cases I saw a beautiful soul who had been marred by very unfortunate circumstances (and extremely unkind people) in childhood. There was an extremely sensitive individual who at the best of times could see the magnificence in nature…and in me!    This was manna to my soul as no one previously had appreciated me in such a way.

In both cases, I thought I could help them heal those bitter childhood wounds. I would love them to the best of my ability and we would have a glorious life. After all, their praise filled in a gap for me, why couldn’t my love help repair them?

Unfortunately it does not work that way with BPD. The Honeymoon Phase is just a phase, after all.

What I did learn in my first marriage was that dealing with the constant chaos and potential threats to life, finances, STDs, and possible incarceration—nearly broke me. It took a lot to get out safely, but I did.

In my current marriage, my husband has “traits” though he was diagnosed by the psychologist we saw for marriage counseling, and who I saw years later for individual counseling, as having a personality disorder, though she wouldn’t specify.

He’s much easier, though he occasionally has his moments, but with what I’ve learned here, it’s no big deal and soon passes if I give it no energy.

Even had I known what I know now, my first husband was far too troubled for a peaceful life. Years later I still get calls from creditors trying to track him down.

You haven’t been married long. What you’ve already experienced is what your future holds. I wish you the best and I hope your grandmother has a good outcome.

 
Cat

[thankful person]

Hi Ava Grace,
I’m sorry things are so hard for you with your wife and that your grandmother is sick. We are all here for you.
Of course it’s up to you to decide whether you want to stay in your marriage. Many people might say that things will not change. However, I just wanted to give you hope, that things have certainly got better in my marriage. Most recently this has been from using skills that I am learning here and in the books (I’m not great at it but mostly keeping my mouth shut seems to help hugely). But that was not the point of my comment. I only discovered this forum earlier this year. I have been with my wife seven years, married for four. We have been to absolute hell and back and I honestly wish I’d discovered this site sooner. The dynamics of our relationship are still nowhere near healthy, but I’m working on my end of that, especially as we have two little girls, I do want to save the marriage and for them to grow up mentally and emotionally healthy. But time itself did make a difference for us, even with me doing absolutely everything wrong and being told so constantly and believing it too (I mean, I was doing it all wrong, but not in the way she was saying. I was wrong for the amount of JADEing I did on a daily basis, not for the daily accusations such as that I never support her, despite her refusal to give any examples of how I could better support her because, “you should know how to support me!”
How old is your wife? My wife was only 20 when we met and you might not think it at times, but she has managed to grow up a bit since then.