BPD versus DV Verbal/Emotional Abuse; Netflix Show Maid

[JadedEmpath]

Domestic verbal/ emotional abuse versus BPD behavior...I mean, they are one in the same right? I feel like the messaging is so strong from the DV advocate perspective, that partners are ultimately victims, and that these behaviors are unacceptable, and it is always better to get out of these relationships. The explanation for these behaviors is never there. And that is probably a good thing for people who don't understand mental illness or who aren't in a place mentally to work through a BPD relationship.

 But as someone who works in the field of social work, and who consumes a lot of podcasts and media about these topics, I think it makes me second guess myself. Im not sure where I'm really going with this post, but it's something that has weighed heavy on my mind for a while and I've wanted to try and talk about it with other people going through the same. I can't even quite put into words exactly why this bothers me so much, but I am hoping it has struck a nerve for someone else on here as well who maybe has a clearer understanding of it themselves that they could share.

The Netflix show Maid is a production recently that has really stired up that discomfort for me. It so artfully creates such a strong argument to leave rather than fix these toxic relationship dynamics. We have a daughter (8years old), which I think is both why this show hit especially hard and why i have a harder time feeling confident in my decision to continue to work on our relationship rather than leave. I think that's the right decision truly, but then I watch something like Maid and I start to second guess. Like maybe that in loving him and giving him grace, I am not giving my daughter the best possible environment. He has definitely made a lot of progress over the years, and I do not tolerate/let slide any abusive/controlling behavior, but it is always an ongoing process. He will slip up, and we will have a messy, tense argument, and then we will work through it. If it was just me and him, I wouldn't worry so much, but I know my choices affect our daughter.

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[formflier]

  He has definitely made a lot of progress over the years, and I do not tolerate/let slide any abusive/controlling behavior, but it is always an ongoing process.   .

I'm not familiar with your story, but from this post I think this should inform your decisions.  Some pwBPD "regress" or get worse...some don't change and some like FFw thankfully have gotten better over the years.

"blow ups" are infrequent.

He will slip up, and we will have a messy, tense argument, and then we will work through it.

So our last blow up was this past New Years day.  She apologized a few hours after it happened. 

I also had the benefit of a quick phone call with my psychologist and while she certainly said FFw carried the lions share of "blame" for the blow up...she did point out ways in which I contributed or missed big red flags.

So...no I don't "own" the entire blow up...but certainly understand and own my part in it.

Because...even if he "slips up" you still have a part to play and if you decide not to have a "messy and tense" argument...one of those won't happen, regardless of what your hubby "wants".

Last:  I'm not familiar with that show...what attracted you to it?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

I feel like the messaging is so strong from the DV advocate perspective, that partners are ultimately victims, and that these behaviors are unacceptable, and it is always better to get out of these relationships. The explanation for these behaviors is never there.

Important and interesting topic, JadedEmpath.

I can't even quite put into words exactly why this bothers me so much, but I am hoping it has struck a nerve for someone else on here as well who maybe has a clearer understanding of it themselves that they could share.

I'm wondering if you're picking up on some "black and white" / "all or nothing" messaging surrounding DV - some "bumper sticker slogan" type communication, where it's like "if he lays a hand on her even once, it's over" ... ?

I wonder if it's the dichotomous nature of the messaging that is part of what's bothering you.

And, I suspect we're on the same page, that wondering about the explanation for DV is not equivalent to excusing it. We "should be allowed" to ask questions about the why, and be in a "grey area" sometimes, and take our own time to work through and understand, without being told the (thankfully) now-rejected perspective of "she deserved it if she did X" or the equally extreme "not even once, don't ask why, don't look back, get out of there" perspective.

In my view, there is room for a multifaceted experience of asking questions about the Why of DV, wondering why batterers batter, wondering if some of them can change, wondering why some don't, and also, at the same time, wanting partners to be safe, to not endure battering, to find better ways, to understand the impact on kids. It's all fair to ask about and to try to understand.

Both our state and our county have batterer intervention programs. I remember our local paper did a front page article many years ago, about a successful graduate from the BIP. I believe he discussed his childhood upbringing and how he didn't know any other options besides physicality and violence to work things out. I'm proud that there is a local group that is providing that service and not writing off all DV perpetrators as "one and done".

That being said, I am certain that not all participants in the BIP "pass the class". Also, the article did not mention if the graduate dealt with a PD or substance abuse. So, it's complicated. And, it's fair to talk about, ask questions about, and take time to gain your own personal clarity. Your process of understanding DV is YOUR process, not anyone else's, regardless of any dichotomous statements out there.

Curious to hear more from you;

kells76

[JadedEmpath]

Hey FF, thank you for the response.

I know it's true what you say about my choice whether or not to engage in the argument. This is something I struggle with because I know that if I don't "take the bate", so to speak, it will pass more quickly, and he is at a point where he will always apologize later for anything nasty that he said. It is easier. But, at the same time, I often feel that I need to stand up for myself, even though I known he isn't being rational and it isn't likely to help, because I dont want my daughter to hear him call me names or talk down to me, and then think that's just "okay"--you know? Do you have children, and, if so, how do you deal with this?

I started the show over winter break because my sister loved it & asked me to watch it. We share an interest in psychology/ social work, we and often trade suggestions back and forth on shows/books so we can discuss them after. Once I started it though, I was thoroughly hooked. I don't know how much of that is the show being made well versus how it spoke to me personally. It's not like an on going show, more like a very long movie with an agenda. Regardless, it's a good watch if youre looking for a new show!

[Cat Familiar]

I watched the first two episodes, but the story was far too reminiscent of my relationship with my abusive ex, and I bounced off the series.

When I interviewed divorce lawyers, I remember the guy I chose saying something to the effect that if DV happens a second time, then that’s not excusable. At the time I thought, the first time gets a pass?

But now that many years have elapsed, I’m thinking that yes, maybe somebody could act out, push past their comfort zone, and hit their partner and maybe that shouldn’t be the end of the relationship. The difference being that perhaps that ill-considered act would cause so much guilt and remorse that this person would never again do such a thing.

However if that behavior occurred again, especially multiple times after promises never to engage in such awful actions, then you have a pattern. And obviously words of remorse or apologies mean nothing to that individual.

[formflier]

  But, at the same time, I often feel that I need to stand up for myself, even though I known he isn't being rational and it isn't likely to help, because I dont want my daughter to hear him call me names or talk down to me, and then think that's just "okay"--you know? Do you have children, and, if so, how do you deal with this?

 

Oh yes..there are a couple FF children running around.  A couple times 4.  Yep..no mistake...8 of them. 

Perhaps look at it this way...is it better for your daughter to see 1 parent behaving badly..or 2?

How effective has "standing up for yourself been"?

Best,

FF

[kells76]

When I interviewed divorce lawyers, I remember the guy I chose saying something to the effect that if DV happens a second time, then that’s not excusable. At the time I thought, the first time gets a pass?

But now that many years have elapsed, I’m thinking that yes, maybe somebody could act out, push past their comfort zone, and hit their partner and maybe that shouldn’t be the end of the relationship. The difference being that perhaps that ill-considered act would cause so much guilt and remorse that this person would never again do such a thing.

However if that behavior occurred again, especially multiple times after promises never to engage in such awful actions, then you have a pattern. And obviously words of remorse or apologies mean nothing to that individual.

I think it's great that we have space here to talk about the nuances. The way you processed and analyzed that statement makes sense.

Of course, each situation is different. Once may indeed be too much, depending on the relationship. Or, the parties in the relationship may be willing to work past that "once". Giving ourselves time and space to think about our own values vis a vis what's going on intimately, is really important.

[JadedEmpath]

Hey kells76--thanks for your reply 

I like how you call it a "bumper sticker slogan". I think that is definitely part of it. The show Maid really sends the message that any kind of DV is unnacceptable (so even if he never actually hit her, his control and intimidation should be treated the same as if he had hit her), and I see the value in that message (empowering and validating partners who do not want to continue the relationship), but at the same time it just doesn't leave any room for alternatives. Or for the gray areas, like you described. The show kind of also sends a message of shame/ weakness for chosing to continue a difficult relationship, and inevitability of it eventually ending, because they talk about how the partners usually go back to their relationship 7 times before finally leaving. Or who knows, maybe that is me projecting those feelings. 

And maybe it bothers me so much because I don't really ever see examples BPD relationships shown in a positive light. Like there is so much out there about DV with the underlying message of "there is nothing good here", but you don't hear a whole lot of stories like the one you described about the BIP graduate. Maybe I am just looking in the wrong places. Maybe I need to be intentional about seeking out different stories that are more relevent to my perspective.

I appreciate your encouragment that understanding/ processing the concept of DV is a ultimately a personal one, regardless of the socially imposed dichotomy.

[JadedEmpath]

However if that behavior occurred again, especially multiple times after promises never to engage in such awful actions, then you have a pattern. And obviously words of remorse or apologies mean nothing to that individual.

But isn't that super characteristic of people with BPD? Not necessarily being physically violent, for me physical violence is a hard boundary that I don't think I would be willing to work through in a relationship, but the genuine apologies followed by making the same mistakes again? I think that the remorse is real and meaningful, it just doesn't necessarily lead to change.

[Cat Familiar]

But isn't that super characteristic of people with BPD? Not necessarily being physically violent, for me physical violence is a hard boundary that I don't think I would be willing to work through in a relationship, but the genuine apologies followed by making the same mistakes again? I think that the remorse is real and meaningful, it just doesn't necessarily lead to change.

It meant, for me in my previous relationship, that abusive behavior would recur regardless of apologies or promises to change. I bought into the sincerity of remorse at first, but the repetitive nature of the bad behavior became glaringly clear that this is who that person is/was and I wanted a life without that.

My current husband has a strong ethical sense and even though he’s a pwBPD, he holds values that wouldn’t allow him to repeat abusive behavior, once he’s understood how he’s transgressed.

[JadedEmpath]

Oh yes..there are a couple FF children running around.  A couple times 4.  Yep..no mistake...8 of them. 

Wow! 8! That is awesome!

I guess that is true. I like to think that I am not acting badly by responding. I don't curse back or scream, I try to stay very externally calm. The messiness is him cursing and talking trash. I guess when I get worked up internally I am less pleasant (short, irritable) to be around for my daughter, and in that way I am acting badly.

Sometimes it feels like standing up for myself is effective because it gets it overwith. Like if he's got some crap he needs to get off his chest we can just go ahead and have it out. I want him to know I am not going to continue to listen to smart remarks or criticism all day long. It feels like its effective because he does get it out of his system a lot quicker and a lot less frequently these days, but that might be more to do with his own progress and have nothing to do with me standing up for myself. I guess maybe it would be better to set some sort of boundary like "if you start making those sort of comments I am going to leave for the day, because I don't want to continue listening to them all day and I don't want to argue either".

[formflier]

Yeah...8, never a dull moment at my house.  It did make things more complicated with BPD was running wild and I didn't know what I was doing...it also gave me motivation to make things the best they can be.

I've had a bit off an off..sideways day so I'll say up front this is not intended as criticism...but another point of view to consider.

For starters...validation is important.

Avoiding invalidation is even more important that learning to validate emotions.

There is another...trickier thing ..avoiding "validating the invalid" might be the most important thing of all.  While I'm not "sure" you are doing that...I'm reading red flags.  I hope you can fill in some blanks for me.

  Like if he's got some crap he needs to get off his chest we can just go ahead and have it out.

Does he "need" to get it off his chest...or does he "want" to?  And has he been trained by you that this is OK to say horrid things...as long as he is quick about it.

And...granted, he most likely will feel better after...and you most likely feel worse because you still have "emotional vomit" on you.

Plus...think about the way you would write out your "boundary statement" for exiting a conversation.

Version 1

I'm leaving this conversation because you took to long to call me (fill in nasty)...  (Kinda misses the mark..huh?)

Version 2

I don't participate in (name calling, cursing..etc etc).  See how it's much "tighter"?

I want him to know I am not going to continue to listen to smart remarks or criticism all day long.

Do you see how striking out the "all day long" part tightens it and protects you more.

The "invalid" thing that you don't want to "validate" is that it's ok to "emotionally vomit".

Best,

FF

[JadedEmpath]

Okay FF so you are saying that by taking the bate, by arguing or choosing to engage back, I am implicitly validating his emotional outbursts. That actually makes a lot of sense.

I also see your point about keeping my pre-planned response short and to the point.

Let me ask you about situations where you can't just leave. Like if you're in the car with the family, or about to go to a holiday get-together. If your partner were to get all worked up and go on some rant, and you respond that you don't participate in (x y z), and the partner continues ranting for several minutes during the car ride. Do you internally forgive and act like it never happened once it's over? Or do you distance yourself?

[JadedEmpath]

I understand what you are saying now Cat Familiar. That is really interesting about how your husband adheres to a strong personal sense of ethics in spite of his PD. My SOwBPD doesn't really have a solid sense of identity, or any values that he feels consistently compelled to live his life by, except "honesty/truthfullness". I had assumed that was largely a part of his PD.

Has your husband always been ethically mindful, or has that been something he has gained intentionally at some point in adulthood?

[Cat Familiar]

Has your husband always been ethically mindful, or has that been something he has gained intentionally at some point in adulthood?

It’s hard to say when he developed his *superego* and to add to my comments, he has “traits of BPD” and isn’t as afflicted (thankfully) as my first husband. That said, our psychologist who we saw for couples counseling, and who I later saw individually, told me that he has a personality disorder, though she declined to be specific. He definitely presented more NPD to her while he saved the BPD stuff for me. 

Perhaps his development of a conscience and being mindful of behaving in a way where he does no harm to others came about from either having a very harsh malignant narcissist father/weak, kind codependent mother or being sent away to boarding school at a young age.

[formflier]

Let me ask you about situations where you can't just leave. Like if you're in the car with the family, or about to go to a holiday get-together. 

I would first really ask if you "can't" leave or is it "don't want to"?

Many pwBPD seem to exploit situations like being in a car.  For a  while I wouldn't ride with my wife and if we were together I would drive.

Boy..those are some memories.  I have had family in the car and my wife started going off...I pulled into a McDonalds and went inside (taking the keys with me).  I wouldn't get back into the van until my wife agreed that the subject wouldn't be talked about again while in a moving vehicle of any kind.

The most important thing that you need to reinforce in various ways is that you are done with "the ridiculous".

Best,

FF

[Couscous]

Many pwBPD seem to exploit situations like being in a car.

This is so true and it's a real safety issue. It's dangerous to be behind the wheel while emotionally dysregulated or with someone who is dysregulated, and it is beyond reasonable to have a boundary with regard to that. This may be an extreme example, but my H's grandfather actually was killed after he flew off the handle while his son was driving which resulted in them having a car accident.