By far the most helpful words I read about BPD discard

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

the fear of engulfment is not the fear of being unable to manipulate someone. it is the fear of being manipulated or controlled. it is a fear we all have, to lesser or greater degrees. ...

This is a helpful description of the problem.  I wondered about the engulfment factor being part of BPD. 

People mentioned to me, when they first explained that my XW was exhibiting BPD characteristics, that BPDers had dual fears of engulfment and abandonment, which lead to a constant "push-pull" pattern of conflict in their relationships... where they were either fearing abandonment and demanding love and affection, or fearing enmeshment, and pushing their partner away. 

But abandonment or childhood neglect or trauma stemming from the parent not being there for a child often plays a role in the development of the disorder, according to things I've read.

SO I never understood why they'd fear engulfment if abandonment is the primary fear; if you're more engulfed in your partner (for better or for worse), abandonment seems less likely.

However, if it's normal like you say to resent or dislike feeling controlled, or losing your autonomy as a person; I imagine then that BPDers, being emotionally disordered, experience this to a greater extent than a non-disordered person, and over issues or events that a non-disordered person might not associate with a loss of autonomy.  I can understand that. 

[PeteWitsend]

the fear of engulfment is not the fear of being unable to manipulate someone. it is the fear of being manipulated or controlled. it is a fear we all have, to lesser or greater degrees. ...

This is a helpful description of the problem.  I wondered about the engulfment factor being part of BPD. 

People mentioned to me, when they first explained that my XW was exhibiting BPD characteristics, that BPDers had dual fears of engulfment and abandonment, which lead to a constant "push-pull" pattern of conflict in their relationships... where they were either fearing abandonment and demanding love and affection, or fearing enmeshment, and pushing their partner away. 

But abandonment or childhood neglect or trauma stemming from the parent not being there for a child often plays a role in the development of the disorder, according to things I've read.

SO I never understood why they'd fear engulfment if abandonment is the primary fear; if you're more engulfed in your partner (for better or for worse), abandonment seems less likely.

However, if it's normal like you say to resent or dislike feeling controlled, or losing your autonomy as a person; I imagine then that BPDers, being emotionally disordered, experience this to a greater extent than a non-disordered person, and over issues or events that a non-disordered person might not associate with a loss of autonomy.  I can understand that. 

[NotAHero]

the fear of engulfment is not the fear of being unable to manipulate someone. it is the fear of being manipulated or controlled. it is a fear we all have, to lesser or greater degrees. in my case, for example, i feel engulfed when i feel someone is: competing with or invading my privacy, when i feel someone is telling me what to do or bossing me around at the expense of my autonomy, or when i feel like someone is pushing me to commit to something im not ready to commit to. no one likes to be on the receiving end of those things. i have a bit of a heightened sense for it and have to adjust for that.

we all put our best foot forward when we begin a new relationship. we all minimize the less desirable parts of us, and play up what we think is most likely to attract the other person. we all idealize new partners to an extent.

a deeply insecure person will do this to an even greater degree, at the expense of themselves, because they are desperate to attract you and obtain your love.

the problem is that thats not, ultimately, sustainable. and eventually they will come to resent you for it.

why? because a person in that position senses, and feels, that you dont really love them for who they are, but for who you want them to be. simultaneously, they begin to feel that they are a fraud, are suspicious of your love for that reason, and resent feeling obligated to keep it up.

whats insidious about these relationships, is that typically, both parties are unknowingly reinforcing that fear.

 I really like your explanation of that part of the engulfment fear. I do still believe manipulation is part of it though. Mirroring and idealizing may not be fully conscious act to them but that does not disqualify it from being a manipulation technique. When “the gig is up” or like you said when they feel like a fraud then that part of engulfment becomes scary and the resentment builds. They are afraid that they can no longer manipulate you and you are onto them they are afraid that you will now manipulate them and they will lose themselves. It’s a complex mechanic and I don’t think that there is a way to continue after that point short of them seeking serious help on their own. If they have narcissistic tendencies that won’t happen.

[WhatToDo47]

I think all of that is true. I also think that, in cases of abuse and/or neglect, engulfment fear comes in part because the primary abuser was so abusive when present. So if they are feeling loved/intimate/accepted, they are just waiting for the other shoe to drop, so to speak. They are wearing a mask and expect that everyone else is as well. They trusted and loved someone once, when they were very young, and it resulted in horrific abuse, so they are expecting the same thing to happen again and panic.

I know being around my wife's mom, who is also BPD/NPD, when she was nice it was almost scarier than when she was mean. When she was mean, at least it would be over soon or she would get to tired to stay as actively, aggressively mean and narcissistic. When she was nice, it was always to get something or as a prelude to abuse. She would be nice for a while partially so she didn't have to feel as bad about herself when she was inevitably mean later on. (eg mama cooked you lunch earlier so she's a good mom, even if she hits you and yells at you later). No sense of proportionality or justice.

I think that BPD is very complex and there are so many factors and disordered thinking patterns that can result in the same observed outcome (splitting, abandoning, cheating, etc). So they have many disordered ways of thinking and fearing to arrive at the same outcomes, which manifest as the traits of BPD.

Not sure if any of that made sense.

[NotAHero]

Thanks  to a half - a**ed recycling attempt I had to read this again. I have been doing that for a year - even before the break up- yet my heart still has not fully caught to it.

 Why do I still have feelings as faint as they are, that allow her to affect me still?

[drumdog4M]

"To break free from a relationship with a BPD is one of the hardest things to accomplish - the toll on you both mentally and emotionally will be great...but the peace in your life once it is over will be greater."

Notahero, I know how you feel. I feel the same. We neurotypical people - maybe with some codependent tendencies and attachment issues - bond incredibly tightly when we find someone we are led to believe is going to be our ideal partner. The idealization, love-bombing, promises of a future dream, and all of the intermittent reinforcement gets us hooked. And hooked deeply.

I'm no expert, but from my experience and what I have read, our pwBPD and the highs produced from the good times in our relationship with them acts like a drug. If you were a cocaine addict and went to a party where cocaine was present, you'd crave it. Even if you thought you'd kicked the habit.

I also find myself struggling with the false belief that the next round with her would be better. I could make it work if only, I did things differently. Sadly, I tried so many different things, and nothing worked consistently for an extended period. And while she claimed to have "tried so hard", I believe her efforts were largely internally focused (i.e., not letting her fear rise up up and cause her to run away or otherwise engage in behavior that destabilized the relationship) rather than on actually putting motional energy into the relationship.

The other factor that might be in play here is: hope. I am a bit of a romantic and an idealist. I don't want to give up hope on her becoming healthier and being able to be a consistently loving and emotionally stable partner. I don't want to give up hope in the relationship and the possibility of a future together. But, those hopes plague me and keep me vulnerable to feelings of longing for her, etc. I hope with time, distance, and work, I can let go of that hope and build other hopes based on healthier and more realistic dreams.

The addiction, wishful thinking / second chance, and hope even against the odds might also be factors that keep you locked into the cycle even as you work to free yourself.

Why do you think you have feelings that still allow her to affect you? In expressing them, it might help you to understand and make peace with them, in hopes that you can let go of them in time.

[finallyout]

Thanks  to a half - a**ed recycling attempt I had to read this again. I have been doing that for a year - even before the break up- yet my heart still has not fully caught to it.

 Why do I still have feelings as faint as they are, that allow her to affect me still?

I believe this is totally normal. You were living together with this person for 5 years, and you had a child together. There were bad times but good ones as well, so it is not really easy to just forget about them all together. She still has some place in your heart, and that is not going to go away in a few months or even in a year. But it will eventually pass and after it does, you might still think about her from time to time but she won't have any power over you.

Hang in there, you are doing really well my friend

[NotAHero]

"To break free from a relationship with a BPD is one of the hardest things to accomplish - the toll on you both mentally and emotionally will be great...but the peace in your life once it is over will be greater."

Notahero, I know how you feel. I feel the same. We neurotypical people - maybe with some codependent tendencies and attachment issues - bond incredibly tightly when we find someone we are led to believe is going to be our ideal partner. The idealization, love-bombing, promises of a future dream, and all of the intermittent reinforcement gets us hooked. And hooked deeply.

I'm no expert, but from my experience and what I have read, our pwBPD and the highs produced from the good times in our relationship with them acts like a drug. If you were a cocaine addict and went to a party where cocaine was present, you'd crave it. Even if you thought you'd kicked the habit.

I also find myself struggling with the false belief that the next round with her would be better. I could make it work if only, I did things differently. Sadly, I tried so many different things, and nothing worked consistently for an extended period. And while she claimed to have "tried so hard", I believe her efforts were largely internally focused (i.e., not letting her fear rise up up and cause her to run away or otherwise engage in behavior that destabilized the relationship) rather than on actually putting motional energy into the relationship.

The other factor that might be in play here is: hope. I am a bit of a romantic and an idealist. I don't want to give up hope on her becoming healthier and being able to be a consistently loving and emotionally stable partner. I don't want to give up hope in the relationship and the possibility of a future together. But, those hopes plague me and keep me vulnerable to feelings of longing for her, etc. I hope with time, distance, and work, I can let go of that hope and build other hopes based on healthier and more realistic dreams.

The addiction, wishful thinking / second chance, and hope even against the odds might also be factors that keep you locked into the cycle even as you work to free yourself.

Why do you think you have feelings that still allow her to affect you? In expressing them, it might help you to understand and make peace with them, in hopes that you can let go of them in time.

  You are right on. I completely agree with everything you said.

 I am a hopeless romantic myself. It was very hard for me to dissect that the “ideal” partner was just mirroring and idealizing. She did it so well and for over 3 years. Event year 4 wasn’t that bad…though the abuse had started in it. Year 5 was a nightmare from the depths of hell that went progressively worse.

For me I do know the relationship will never work. I took steps to end it - if you go to my first posts on the forms I started in “bettering the relationship “ back in September.  Why do I have feelings for her? Because she is that brilliant beautiful talented woman who has a childish good heart just like mine…but within her also lives that evil child - so to speak - the Damian, the torturer, the abuser ….

 I know it will never ever work as a relationship but I find myself weak to her hugs and touches still. Though I know they are not being done for a good reason. They are not healthy. The intimacy is always on the table one way or another and I’m having a hard time letting go of that as well. Having a hard time forming any intimacy with other women that I talk to or try to connect with. I have had no issues with that before. Since I have to keep seeing her and communicate with her, I realized I must just let it heal with time. My therapist told me I don’t have to delete our picture and memories but I shouldn’t wallow on them. One day I won’t look at them and be sad. I already became better I would say. At least I don’t cry anymore. I have good days when I’m happy. Going out, traveling to see friends for the first time soon, becoming happier slowly….

 There is always that fear that I’ll still have feelings in years not months. That is not something I want and that is why I’m posting, getting therapy and talking to friends. Plus of course sharing with you who are going through similar circumstances here. I wish us all luck…

[drumdog4M]

I really do understand how you feel, though your journey is more challenging, in that your life was more intertwined than mine and that you must continue to interact with her. You have a lot of inner strength to be able to move forward, find moments of happiness, and not cry. I look forward to reaching that point myself.

Part of the letting go of hope for me is trying to accept that her love for me, at least the idealization of me, was in part an illusion that she and I both created, fueled, and bought into. It wasn't reaIity. I actually do believe that pwBPD are capable of love. It's just not a stable, safe, consistent, and healthy love at least in the context of a long-term romantic relationship. Certainly not without therapy, acceptance of their disorder, and practicing the skills taught during therapy even when triggered.

I think it's ok and realistic to fear that you "will have feelings" for her even years after. She was your partner and is the mother of your child. It is natural that you will have those feelings, not something to fear. At the same time, you already are able to acknowledge that it would be unhealthy for you to act on those feelings and remain in a relationship that was causing you great pain.

Unlike our former partners, we are capable of accepting the gray areas of human interactions. You can love her yet not be with her. They are not mutually exclusive. And I would say as a romantic and idealist, that it's a pretty noble quality to be able to still love someone notwithstanding the dysfunction you experienced in your relationship with her. Reconciling these dialectics is part of healing and letting go.

I also believe that once you are further healed, you will be able to receive love and share intimacy with another woman. Your reaction is likely your mind telling you that you are still wounded and not ready for a healthy romantic relationship. When you're ready, I believe it will just feel natural.

I hope my words validate your experience. Sometimes when I reply to posts I feel like I'm trying to give myself wisdom I wish I could accept directly from myself. Why is that so hard for me to do? My logical mind and emotional mind still are locked in a struggle. I hope I and all of us can integrate the two sides of our minds with time, distance, and healing to reach a "wise mind" approach to the paradoxes of loving and recovering from loving a pwBPD.

Until that day comes, hang in there and let's keep supporting one another.

[finallyout]

There is always that fear that I’ll still have feelings in years not months.

I think even if you intentionally try to do this, you can't achieve it. Look at the new posts from older members on this site, most of them were  able eventually to detach and move on with their lives. This is basically how our brain works. We forget!

You can't hold on to anything ... everything eventually pass. The most important thing is not to feed the drama anymore.

[NotAHero]

I think even if you intentionally try to do this, you can't achieve it. Look at the new posts from older members on this site, most of them were  able eventually to detach and move on with their lives. This is basically how our brain works. We forget!

You can't hold on to anything ... everything eventually pass. The most important thing is not to feed the drama anymore.

 You are right and I am trying to do the exact opposite. To heal and be able to be at peace with her new place in my life as the mother of my child only. Would greatly help if she would stop attempting to recycle or breadcrumb then pull back as she has always done to this day- never a full discard yet.  I know that to end that it has to come from me- where I can continue to hold my indifference or the appearance of indifference until she moves on completely.

  I do mentally understand that the recycling and breadcrumbs have nothing to do with love or missing me or even who I am. More to do with her own validation and ego. Not all of them do that, I think of it like ghosts. Some souls are stuck searching for an unresolved issues. Some BPDs are stuck validating something they missed in the relationship or sometimes it’s even for pure revenge.

[NotAHero]

I really do understand how you feel, though your journey is more challenging, in that your life was more intertwined than mine and that you must continue to interact with her. You have a lot of inner strength to be able to move forward, find moments of happiness, and not cry. I look forward to reaching that point myself.

Part of the letting go of hope for me is trying to accept that her love for me, at least the idealization of me, was in part an illusion that she and I both created, fueled, and bought into. It wasn't reaIity. I actually do believe that pwBPD are capable of love. It's just not a stable, safe, consistent, and healthy love at least in the context of a long-term romantic relationship. Certainly not without therapy, acceptance of their disorder, and practicing the skills taught during therapy even when triggered.

I think it's ok and realistic to fear that you "will have feelings" for her even years after. She was your partner and is the mother of your child. It is natural that you will have those feelings, not something to fear. At the same time, you already are able to acknowledge that it would be unhealthy for you to act on those feelings and remain in a relationship that was causing you great pain.

Unlike our former partners, we are capable of accepting the gray areas of human interactions. You can love her yet not be with her. They are not mutually exclusive. And I would say as a romantic and idealist, that it's a pretty noble quality to be able to still love someone notwithstanding the dysfunction you experienced in your relationship with her. Reconciling these dialectics is part of healing and letting go.

I also believe that once you are further healed, you will be able to receive love and share intimacy with another woman. Your reaction is likely your mind telling you that you are still wounded and not ready for a healthy romantic relationship. When you're ready, I believe it will just feel natural.

I hope my words validate your experience. Sometimes when I reply to posts I feel like I'm trying to give myself wisdom I wish I could accept directly from myself. Why is that so hard for me to do? My logical mind and emotional mind still are locked in a struggle. I hope I and all of us can integrate the two sides of our minds with time, distance, and healing to reach a "wise mind" approach to the paradoxes of loving and recovering from loving a pwBPD.

Until that day comes, hang in there and let's keep supporting one another.

 That part about giving yourself wisdom…same here. When I’m giving advice it sounds like I got it all under control. Mentally, I do, and being practical, result oriented individual I did take all the legal and logistic breakup steps with resolve and never going back on any.

 Then again can I stop thinking about her every day ? Can I stop partially reciprocating her recycles or bread crumbs?  That’s a different story. I do get stronger, slowly, but it has been the hardest emotional ordeal I had to deal with, and I dealt with more serious issues - practically- before.

[WhatToDo47]

I'm just catching up with this thread and I completely agree with everything above. I am they same type of person and have the same feelings towards my now exwBPD.

We are all idealistic, romantic dreamers. Don't give up on the dream, just realize that she may have been playing a different role than you thought. Keep posting here and we are all here for each other. There are good people in this world, including so many here.

We can still love our pwBPD and what they represented, what we thought they were, yet still protect ourselves and move on to healthier people and relationships. And it really just enables them to continue the bad behavior and abuse if we go back. The only way they will ever get help is if they hit rock bottom and their disordered behaviors stop working, and even then it's a long shot. The kindest thing we can do for them and us is emotionally detach and put up boundaries and a support system. I'm glad you are posting on here and getting therapy, both have been a life saver (literally I think) for me.

I too had many happy memories and good years with her, and the cognitive dissonance of knowing where to put those in my emotional mind are one of the hardest parts of this for me. I think it's something we all struggle with as the nons who can see shades of grey, as you said above. I'm also trying to think really critically about what even the good years were actually like, even looking at some old texts from those times and talking to family and friends who were also present (before she began her campaign to isolate me from family and friends, which is also common in abusers I now know) and there were cracks in the mask, red flags of abuse and disfunction to come that I hope I would see now. This helps to dispel the FOG and see things more objectively and realistically.

A mentor of mine told me that I don't have to hate her or even stop loving her, but she no longer fits the requirements for the wife role in my life. Sounds like it's the same there.

I also feel sometimes like I'm posting advice for myself as much as anyone and it's nice to know that y'all feel the same haha

Stay strong everyone and have a great weekend. We can do it!

[WhatToDo47]

Also the cocaine addict metaphor above is a helpful one. These relationships really are addictive and just as harmful, chemically it's the same in the brain in many ways, and the intermittent reinforcement we were subjected to is a powerful form of addictive emotional abuse. It helps to remind myself that I'm breaking an addiction, some pain and withdrawal is normal, and that it's worth it to be "clean" and healthy in the future, before the addiction to pwBPD destroys my life and future. Also not to be too hard on ourselves when "withdrawing" and that we will re-acclimate to healthy relationships and relapses hopefully don't happen but if they do it's understandable and to get back on the wagon ASAP (this didn't happen thank God but I know that it does with recycles etc and I have to guard against it).