Very hard to show support when her family is toxic to her

[Boogie74]

J is traveling out of state with her mother, her sister and her nephew.   J is the ONLY one of the 4 that is even remotely educated and they are driving some 1600 miles away to get there.   ZERO plans in advance.  Her mother, despite having no intention of making hotel reservations or expressing any need to be anywhere on the trip at any given time insists on enforcing an extreme high pressure campaign on everyone to rush through the whole trip.   No itinerary- just “look for hotels 30 minutes before they get to a city”.  Her sister has no clue about anything other than fears of “it better not be in the ghetto” and “is it high COVID?  I heard that it’s high COVID.”.   

J has now tested positive for COVID yesterday.   She gets Medicaid but it doesn’t cover out of state except emergencies.   So now, her mom is driving her to the ER.   Meanwhile, this MONSTER of a mother is seriously more upset about how far to drive to the hospital than her daughter’s health.   I called hospitals to help her- even though I know that all insurance carriers including Medicaid will cover emergencies- and as I’m on the phone “making sure” (I’m not on this trip), J texted me to hurry up because “my mom is going to be pissed if we get there and they won’t take my insurance” causing them to drive to a different hospital.

My problem is that I can’t show any support or empathy or share my absolute disgust for this monster of a “mother” who doesn’t seem to get the concept that her daughter’s health and well being is 20,000 times more important than “is the hospital taking her insurance” and worse “I don’t want to drive 30 minutes to save my daughter’s life”

Despite J’s “withdrawal anger” from her family’s extreme dysfunction (she texted me last week saying her family is messed up- her sister’s kids don’t talk to their father, neither of her brother’s kids talk to either brother, her uncle doesn’t talk to her mother, her father doesn’t talk to anyone on his side, etc)

But I can’t come within a mile of telling her how I feel and my frustration with the situation in any kind of support for her- because if I even AGREE with her, she becomes angrily defensive for her family… Basically tells me that I have no dog in this and it’s none of my business.

Seriously, WHAT THE F*CK is wrong with these people?  What kind of a mother is frustrated about her sick daughter making her drive to a doctor?   Her mother is acting as if her 38 year old daughter RUINED her vacation.

In fact, I got a text just now asking me to check how late a Subway is open that’s IN THE HOSPITAL!   Her mother is “hungry” and can’t either wait or look on her own to figure this out for herself at the infant age of 66 years old!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

Have you heard of the Karpman Triangle?  https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

It seems you are stuck in the Rescuer mode, which can quickly turn on a dime in her mind to Persecutor when she feels you are critical of her mother.

Sounds like both she and her mother want to be Victims, so they trade off, since only one can be a Victim at a time.

[Boogie74]

Have you heard of the Karpman Triangle?  https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

It seems you are stuck in the Rescuer mode, which can quickly turn on a dime in her mind to Persecutor when she feels you are critical of her mother.

Sounds like both she and her mother want to be Victims, so they trade off, since only one can be a Victim at a time.

Having read the article you shared, I am a little confused.   It seems to suggest that the “rescuer role” that you have described me as having is about me taking some selfish benefit of inserting myself into this equation.   I truly want NOTHING in this equation.   I don’t ask about these things.   I am confident that when J tells me about this stuff, I express empathy.  She often asks for tasks such as “call this hospital for me” because she and her mother both absolutely REFUSE to do this kind of thing on their own.

But I am simply saying that I’m frustrated that I cannot offer any other responses.   I try extremely hard to not respond with any side taking.   

Her mother finds human suffering and frustration to be humorous.   Just now, in fact, I had been trying to reach J by any means possible.   Before I went to bed last night, she told me she was getting up super early to leave to drive as far as possible today to get home.   That was like 12 or 1am.  At 3am, she decided to stop sharing locations on her phone with me.   I texted her at 7:20am “How are you few this morning?”  (She has Covid).   No response.  8:00am I texted again (it was 9am where she was- so I assumed she was already on the road) “Are you ok?  You stopped sharing locations with me some 90 minutes after we last spoke”. No response.   

9:40am (2 1/2 hours after my original text) I called her phone.  No answer.   It was 10:40am where she is and last we spoke, I understood that she would have left and been driving for a couple hours by now.  I tried calling her.   No answer.   I called again.  No answer.  I called a third time.  No answer.   I called her MOTHER’S phone.   No answer.

Finally I texted her “I’m getting worried.  You aren’t answering any of my texts or calls (she also had turned off read receipts- so I had no way of seeing if she saw the texts).  Please just respond so I know you’re ok”

She called immediately.  I answered and asked are you ok?  No one was answering my calls.”   

She started telling me that everything is fine and they haven’t left the hotel room.   I began to explain “I had no idea what was happening… I was worried” (she had Covid, was in the ER last night, etc).   Her mom started laughing and cackling in the background- because apparently me being worried that they were ok or that her Covid was worse or maybe they got in an accident, etc- that’s FUNNY to her mother.  It was a joke to her that she should respond to say, we are ok and driving or ok and just leaving.

[Cat Familiar]

We try to be supportive of our loved ones and that can involve becoming a Rescuer. When a third party is involved, her mother, even your agreement with your wife about her mother’s behavior, can be interpreted as an attack on her family, as you’ve experienced.

Whether or not you are invested in this role as the helper, the rescuer, is immaterial. It’s the unhealthy family dynamic that you step into when asked for assistance.

Just be mindful of that, and you won’t be pulled into the triangle.

[Boogie74]

We try to be supportive of our loved ones and that can involve becoming a Rescuer. When a third party is involved, her mother, even your agreement with your wife about her mother’s behavior, can be interpreted as an attack on her family, as you’ve experienced.

Whether or not you are invested in this role as the helper, the rescuer, is immaterial. It’s the unhealthy family dynamic that you step into when asked for assistance.

Just be mindful of that, and you won’t be pulled into the triangle.

How does that help me not be a rescuer.   It sounded in the article like the way out of it is to actively “not involve myself”.   Do I decline to help in any way?  I don’t understand.   If I’m part of the unhealthy relationship simply by being asked to do something or when she vents to me, what healthy options do I have?

My understanding of the article is that “the rescuer” has an unhealthy need to be needed- that the rescuer has a personal benefit to inserting themselves into the situation and possibly continuing the problem to assume the role.  It describes rescuers as having mixed motives.
 
Or maybe I’m completely missing the mark.   I don’t want to be someone who listens with closed ears and nods blindly only to walk away after saying, essentially, “well, it sucks to be you!”   At the same time, I don’t want to get involved in this at all.   When visiting her family, I try to be outgoing to a point but also staying a complete silent person so I’m not involving myself in their situations.

I often encourage a healthy boundary when we are “asked” to do things for the family members (for example, “can you guys come and do this- it needs to be done in 15 minutes”, my response is a resounding “no”.   If I’m completely free at that exact moment, I might consider- but “no” is a valid answer)

[Cat Familiar]

You make a good point. When asked to do something that’s not an inconvenience, why not?

I’m hearing a lot of anger towards her mother, which is understandable. Certainly she doesn’t in any way seem an admirable person. However, she is your wife’s mother and it’s unpleasant to hear about her antics.

In your original post, you stated your problem is that you can’t share your disgust about her “monster of a mother” and that is what led me to share the link for the Karpman Triangle.

Perhaps this is a context where Radical Acceptance can come into play. Sure, the woman is  awful. She’s also your wife’s mother. What good does your disgust yield?

[Boogie74]

You make a good point. When asked to do something that’s not an inconvenience, why not?

I’m hearing a lot of anger towards her mother, which is understandable. Certainly she doesn’t in any way seem an admirable person. However, she is your wife’s mother and it’s unpleasant to hear about her antics.

In your original post, you stated your problem is that you can’t share your disgust about her “monster of a mother” and that is what led me to share the link for the Karpman Triangle.

Perhaps this is a context where Radical Acceptance can come into play. Sure, the woman is   awful. She’s also your wife’s mother. What good does your disgust yield?

I believe that I see much of the dysfunction as it is.   Her mother is essentially a sociopath.   She does not seem to have any concept of empathy.   She sees problems as mere distractions from her enjoyment of watching the world around her.  

One of the worst things I ever heard out of her mouth was “(grandson) said to me that his favorite thing about our family was that we are so racist!  And he and I just laughed and laughed!”   What human being hears their 15 year old grandson say that and just laugh it off with him?  

She (and J’s sister- who is worse) are what I would like to call Apocalyptic Evangelical’s.   They really don’t know anything about the Bible- they have their favorite passages but seem to believe that if they just claim to be followers of Jesus, it’s a “get out of jail free card” because they are just gonna go to heaven.

I am a secular Jew.   They both told me that I’m just going to hell (which I don’t believe in) because I essentially don’t follow their religious beliefs.   They are more interested in the concept that Revelations says that the end of the world is soon than they are in anything else in the Bible.    They don’t condemn evil actions of others “We don’t judge.   Everyone is just different.”  

I believe that attitude was very prevalent in the (lack of) discipline with the family growing up.   It was about control of family image rather than teaching kids to be fair and appreciative and asking for forgiveness when they wronged someone.  

I’ve resigned myself to labeling her mother as a sociopath.  I don’t expect anything out of her.   I DO have shock and disdain when she does something that is inappropriate behavior.

Her parents coddle their adult children.   They never seemed to teach them how to be independent mature adults and enforce boundaries of any kind.   If it’s 4:35pm and Dad needs help taking down Christmas lights because it “HAS TO BE DONE BY TODAY!” we get a call saying, come over now because it’ll be dark in 45 minutes.   And I’m simply shaking my head - “Ummm… no.   If they asked a few days ago or even several hours ago- we will see and if we can- sure.”   But no way am I rushing to get out of the house to do that on demand.  

When we are supposed to be at their house for something like Christmas dinner- it’s at 1pm… we are 2 minutes away and it’s 1:01pm.   We get a call- frantic- “WELL? Are you coming?”  If that doesn’t happen, when we are there at 1:03, we are greeted by a brother saying, (I guess half in Jest) “It’s about TIME!  I’m gonna start calling you (other sister’s name who is chronically late)”. Or we get a text saying “Dinner starts in 30 seconds.  Where are you?”

J, of course gets anxiety from all of this.   I am annoyed- but I have expectations that people that love you understand that Christmas dinner isn’t a job to clock in for at exactly 1pm.  Especially since it’s not a sit down dinner- it’s a pot luck “get a plate and eat anywhere in the house- living room, kitchen, anywhere there’s a chair or sofa.

I only imagine this is how she grew up.  This is how her family treated everyone.    As an adult “outsider”, I tolerate it better- simply being annoyed at the antics but understanding that it isn’t the end of the world that family sees family 3 minutes later than they expected to.

Her sister has health problems that often landed her in the hospital ER.   So often that they drive her there, drop her off and leave.   I see that as inconsiderate.  I don’t blast that at them or try to correct them.   But I have driven her there- expected by the sister to leave her there alone- in pain.   I refused every time to leave.   “I’m here till you’re done.”   I stay there with her for the several hours because that’s what good people do for others they care about.    

This kind of action is seen with skepticism and distrust, of course… “He’s got a motive.  He is poking his nose in our business!”  It’s an abusive family with secrets and overly sensitive boundaries that even in-law relatives should never breach.

[Cat Familiar]

Ugh 

My mother’s family was somewhat like that. If you weren’t *blood* then you were a permanent outsider. Perhaps it was from being an isolated Norwegian farm family in North Dakota. Though I suspect my grandfather’s out of control alcoholism might have had something to do with it.

Otherwise they were relatively normal-ish, though I have to wonder something was up, in that out of eight children, my cousin and I are the only descendants.

Formflier has a similar story with in-laws. He says his wife is the only one with a college degree and the most normal one of the bunch. He has chosen to distance himself from participating in her family’s get togethers and dysfunction.

[Boogie74]

She told me a story of a time her mom took her to the doctor to have an infected cyst lanced.   Her mom sat in the room “eeking” and “gasping” and blasting, “J- THAT STINKS!  Ugh the smell!”

Forgive my conceit, but if you’re a parent and your teeenage daughter is at the doctor getting an unpleasant procedure done, you simply DON’T complain the whole time that the odor of the drainage from a cyst is disgusting.   You are there for a ride and to support her.   Not to make her feel like you are disgusted by her health.   That translates into “YOU are disgusting!”

The family often debates whether to seek medical treatment.   They too are farmers- her parents were attacked by a cow while trying to separate a calf in the barn.   This 1600 pound animal stomped and stampeded at both of them-
Severely injuring both.   They both crawled to the house from the barn- too much in pain to walk or run.   They then sat and debated for 1-2 hours whether to go to the hospital.   “Don’t want people seeing that stuff!  All that attention if you call an ambulance, you know!”

[formflier]

   It seems to suggest that the “rescuer role” that you have described me as having is about me taking some selfish benefit of inserting myself into this equation.   I truly want NOTHING in this equation.   

  She often asks for tasks such as “call this hospital for me” because she and her mother both absolutely REFUSE to do this kind of thing on their own.

Hey...oh...we can swap in law stories (and we will someday...I have more than my fair share)...that being said I think it will be most helpful to you to take a new perspective on "Drama Triangle" and the "rescuer" role.

Please look at it as a "lens" or perhaps as an "explanation" or perhaps as a "label"...but please don't add on "positive" or "negative"...  (just a way to "see" how different people "act" in certain situations...often stressful situations)

So (again removing all good or bad judgment)...look at the example of the "absolutely refuse to do it themselves" thing...when we all know they have the capability to do that.  For whatever reason (don't focus too much on "why") they have made an adult decision NOT to do for themselves something they can easily do.

Now the other person "in the triangle" has a choice to make.  Are they going to "rescue" someone from their own valid adult choice?  Perhaps another way of looking at it...are you able to respect and honor someone else's choices by letting them experience the "logical and natural consequences" that ordinarily flow from such a decision.

So...I the grand FF want to know if some sandwhich shop is open and I ask Cat Familiar to find out for me. 

CF now has choices...

I suspect she will think to herself..."I really don't want to be in the FF sandwhich shop information business...and I know that if I give in "just this once"...he will expect me to do it again.

She also realizes that if she expresses confidence in me and my capabilities and also just doesn't do it for me, that the chances are pretty good I won't ask as much in the future.

So...she decides NOT to "rescue" me from my choices, orders some popcorn and decided to watch what FF is going to do.

Best,

FF
 

[Boogie74]

And what then happens when the person requesting has BPD and rages indefinitely for this transgression?  Mind you, I understand that it’s a boundary issue.   But when it’s not a pre-drawn boundary, it is EXTREMELY difficult to respond, “Thanks, no thanks.  You can do it your F*CKING SELF!” (Which is the received and perceived intentional message” no matter how rosy and supportive the actual words are)

[formflier]

Yeah...believe me, I don't know of anyone here that thinks this stuff is "easy" or "fair"...it just sucks.

It's also important to believe to the bottom of your mind, soul and being  that "it is"

Radical acceptance is hard..very hard.  All of this is hard.

OK...

And what then happens when the person requesting has BPD and rages indefinitely for this transgression?  

As little as possible..nothing is preferable.  They will eventually wear themselves out...or not...but that's their choice to RAGE.

It's your choice and ONLY your choice for you to "participate" or to "listen" or "enable" or whatever label you want to or others put on your actions.  They don't get a vote on your choices unless you allow them one.

Hint:  Don't allow them to "vote" on this issue.

Mind you, I understand that it’s a boundary issue.

Yep..100% a boundary issue.  You don't control her choices and she doesn't control yours and also you should not ALLOW her to control yours.

  But when it’s not a pre-drawn boundary, it is EXTREMELY difficult to respond,

Yes it is!

“Thanks, no thanks.  You can do it your F*CKING SELF!” (Which is the received and perceived intentional message” no matter how rosy and supportive the actual words are)

There is no reason for you to tell them no..or yes.  It's much LESS about what you say...it's much  MORE about what you do or don't do.

So perhaps something like "I'll have to consider this later, I'm confidant you can handle this until then."

Then ignore the storm...

The first time is going to be so hard...

The next time a bit better...and then over time it will get easier and easier.

What do you think?  Are you up for this?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I understand your questioning the rescuer role, as it seems natural to want to help when someone is ill, but I also see a lot of chaos and dysfunction in your partner's family, which she is a part of and that leads to a lot of chaos. Do you find yourself frequently putting out fires?

While you offer a lot of understanding towards her situation, the reverse doesn't seem to be true. You can't express your frustration. Whether or not you can perceive this, this dynamic is Karpman triangle because it involves the roles being somewhat fixed. Your partner is victim. You offer understanding. If this were simply helping, there'd be some mutuality- you understand her, she then understands you. But when you want to express frustration, this takes you out of helper role- to wanting understanding. If someone has victim perspective- they can't do that. You may not feel you are in rescuer role, but she could be fixed in victim role, expecting you to take on rescuer role.

You are understandably angry at her mother but this also can play into triangle dynamics. When two people are aligned with a common "villain" and angry at them, it's a stabilizing force as it takes the focus off the relationship issues. One clue that this is Karpman triangle is the shifting roles. He mother is in persecutor position, your partner is victim, you take rescuer but then, if you dare say something about her mother, she steps in to "rescue" (defend) her mother against you.

The dynamics of her family are long standing. They've existed before your relationship with her. They are part of your relationship now.

On one hand, marriage is between two people, but beyond that, it's a joining of two families. What I see on your part is anger and frustration at the chaos and dysfunction in this family, and there are conflicting values.

Chaos can draw our attention to the situation at hand, rather than to the  overall patterns. Although the current one is concerning and I hope your partner has a quick recovery, you have concerns beyond this incident. Something to think about.

[Notwendy]

To clarify- what I mean by roles being fixed and also shift is in reference to victim position. Normal helping and concern also involves some reciprocity but if victim position is the preferred one for someone, then another person asking for understanding is a potential victim spot and there can not be two victims.

In your partner's family, it seems her mother may be in victim position. So your partner can not take that position in the family. Her role in relationship to her mother could have only been persecutor or rescuer. You may not intend to jump into these dynamics, but when you do interact with them, you are being perceived in this pattern.

So the scenario is- your partner wants or needs help. You want to help. You may inevitably step into rescuer mode to her victim mode. If you get angry at her mother, your partner steps into rescuer mode with her mother as victim.

What you see with her mother's behavior is that, if mother is in victim position, then anyone else who needs help can't take a role in that same position. Other family members who may need help won't fit into that dynamic. She would then not respond in a helpful manner. Is she a sociopath? Hard to know for sure if this is intended or disordered ( or both )

Your question- when is it normal to help? I think that is where we use judgement. If we are asked to step in to do something they can handle themselves - that could be rescuing/enabling. In the case where someone is ill, you would choose to help because it's a medical situation. Consider your values- if you believe it's the right thing to do to help when someone is ill, that's authentic. If you are enabling, it's not a high need situation and you don't want to do it, the clue will be that you feel resentful.

Resentment is a clue to whether one is helping "too much" vs doing what they feel is right. Staying aware of this, and the triangle dynamics may be a helpful guide to you.