How do I..

[StartingHealing]

Hello y'all.

Been a spell since I have posted here.  Been working on myself and also working on starting to set boundaries plus working on no JADE, using SET statements, etc.  

Wpd is spinning up again.  There have been external situations where  I'm certain she felt out of control.  I think that has part to do with it.  The other part is that over the last couple of weeks, (I'm in school full time and also work full time) I've had a really hard class that has taken up more time than usual.

We haven't been intimate for a while.  It's hard for me to get over all the negativity that she sent my direction before I started to come out of the FOG and recognizing that she has a disorder.   She is starting to push that issue.  Funny that while it's all my fault, she still wants to be intimate.

I'm freaking out at the moment because I'm not feeling like I'm improved enough to actually be present and not take the projections / anger / etc personally.  

Yes, I'm remembering the last time that she had an episode and it was really brutal on me.  That may not happen this time.  

Maybe I'm seeing myself as weaker than I actually am or perhaps I'm not quite there as far as personal improvement.  

Thoughts?  Advice?  Help?
Thanks

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat Familiar]

As you know, stress is cumulative. It’s exhausting working, going to school, and having a BPD partner.

Learning about BPD and making changes in your behavior also takes a toll. There’s much to grieve when accepting that our partners have a personality disorder.

It’s hard not to take it personally when our loved ones say unkind things or do behaviors we’d never expect from a significant other who has claimed they love us.

Maybe it’s time to give yourself a break and congratulate yourself on learning new ways of responding to her. It’s a lot to take in for anyone, and especially for someone who is engaged in such a demanding work and educational process.

[StartingHealing]

Thanks for the encouragement Cat.  I do appreciate it.

[alterK]

Part of healing is learning to forgive ourselves. You are in a very complicated relationship, and the ideas we all talk about--don't JADE, establish boundaries, etc.--are easy to express, but not so easy to carry through.

When your partner is, say, verbally abusive, you can tell yourself that it is projection, that you aren't the terrible person she says you are, but you still feel hurt. One thing maybe we don't talk about is that all of these processes for healing don't happen instantly. They take a lot of learning, a lot of struggling to condition ourselves to respond in better ways, a lot of time.

Allow yourself to take baby steps and be patient with yourself. Allow yourself to take deep breaths and don't try to force yourself to move until you feel able.

[StartingHealing]

Thanks alterK.

Yep, she had a episode.  Saw it coming this time so I was better prepared than the last time.  She's been withdrawing into the house, doesn't go do anything since people laugh at her when she is out in public. And she doesn't want to go do things by herself anyway. 

It's almost like she is expecting me to provide her entertainment.

She said the typical for her stuff.  Mentioned that ultimately she doesn't see us working out,  divorce threat, demanding (future) that there is a skoolie.  yeah, part of the reason I'm in school is to get into an area where I can work remote and convert a school bus and travel while I'm young enough to enjoy, you know?

She also mentioned that we are nothing more than roommates. Also that she is stuck.  but yet...

She does have a physical disability that limits what she can do.  it was a workplace accident.  But she refuses to learn anything computer related, or how to use social media to market (she does make wallets / purses out of cork fabric) buttttt here again, she's "done" with it because of a person that used to be in charge of a pop up market that we would go do. 

F-ing difficult to have a loving relationship when there isn't room for 2 people. Round about way to say that everything is always about her.  Enmeshment anyone?   I mean seriously?  I have to be with her in public so she feels "safe" from other people laughing at her?  Literally.  her words

not to mention that I'm supposed to be the "man" and direct everything / plan everything.

There are things she can do.  Have all the stuff for stained glass, (which was her idea) and ... She doesn't do that. 

Doesn't walk our dog since she's afraid of other dogs that are either loose or off leash.


Drama, always drama about some one or some thing. 

Meanwhile, I'm supposed to be responsible for everything. 

I admit that the money situation is also a little tight since we are in process of updating the house.  And since there is some impulse control issues with her, money that could have been used to go out to dinner, gets spent on other things.

Trying to figure out how to get some boundaries on money.

I grieved so hard yesterday before her episode.  I didn't do the usual cry with tears etc, but this was more primal where it was a "keening" almost screaming without the throat damage..

I know that I'm making progress. Letting go of what was / should have been / with grieving and mourning, so I can get to a point where I can fully accept the current situation at face value and take appropriate actions.

My thanks for "listening"

[alterK]

Sounds like you are supposed to be the one taking all the risks--being in the "man in charge," taking her (and the dog) out for walks, earning the money--and so you get blamed for anything that goes wrong. Or goes wrong in her eyes. It's a setup for failure and criticism.

Sad that your partner has a disability. Coping with a disability doesn't always work out. We read about people who have lost limbs, eyes, had strokes, and have successfully re-entered life. The ones we don't read about are those who haven't been able to deal with something bad that's happened to them, and have never really come back to functioning. I have known both types of people, and I think what someone does after suffering some serious damage depends mostly on what kind of person they were before.

A lot of what we talk about here is how we struggle to unlearn bad ways of relating and learn new ones that are more constructive and less painful. And as I said, it is neither quick nor easy. Give yourself time and take small bites.

[StartingHealing]

alterK,

Thank you for the perspective.

Yeah, it's a victim thing that she does.  That is part of her thing. 

I'm proud of myself.  I actually stood up for myself in the heated discussion that happened on Sat.  Yeah, this outburst was over two days.  I'm learning how to not freak out when there is "conflict" .  Considering that with BPD traits, there is always some sort of it.

She was projecting and was shaking her finger at me.  It just hit me wrong and  since my emotions were already running high, it struck me wrong, and I slipped into anger, and I stated "stop shaking your finger at me like I'm a child"
There was some cuss words in there.. but I digress
She stopped. 
Like DAMN.  She stopped shaking her finger at me.

I'm proud that I actually did that.  I'm proud that I was able to remain in my wise mind while she did her emotional puke.  The realization that I have more "power" in the relationship than I previously thought.

Also been reading this book:  Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist How to End the Drama and Get On with Life

Been very helpful.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s powerful when you realize that appeasement doesn’t work long term. Having good boundaries is vital. Though we may initially think that keeping the peace is the most important objective, the more we demean ourselves through being obsequious, the more our BPD partners lose respect for us, and the worse their behavior becomes.

[StartingHealing]

It’s powerful when you realize that appeasement doesn’t work long term. Having good boundaries is vital. Though we may initially think that keeping the peace is the most important objective, the more we demean ourselves through being obsequious, the more our BPD partners lose respect for us, and the worse their behavior becomes.

Cat, I do believe that you are totally accurate in that.  For me personally, I've been through some situations where I almost died, Once maybe I did, IDK.  That gives me a way different perspective than most.  While it can be a strength, in the relationship with spouse, it turned into a liability.

[alterK]

It can sometimes be reassuring for a someone with personality problems when you set limits. Their world is chaotic, and they are constantly in danger of being hurt or provoked when someone does something that exceeds their very low threshold for awful.

So having a boundary set can be surprisingly acceptable for them. This doesn't work 100%, but is often worth trying, especially if you can do it without a lot of anger.

And what do you have to lose? Remember that basically a boundary is something for yourself. Something you will not tolerate--like shaking her finger at you. If she does it, you can tell her to stop, and if she stops, all well and good. If she doesn't stop, you can end the interaction, by walking away, or whatever. This isn't controlling her, but it's control of your own behavior that you are entitled to have in your relationship.

[StartingHealing]

It can sometimes be reassuring for a someone with personality problems when you set limits. Their world is chaotic, and they are constantly in danger of being hurt or provoked when someone does something that exceeds their very low threshold for awful.

So having a boundary set can be surprisingly acceptable for them. This doesn't work 100%, but is often worth trying, especially if you can do it without a lot of anger.

And what do you have to lose? Remember that basically a boundary is something for yourself. Something you will not tolerate--like shaking her finger at you. If she does it, you can tell her to stop, and if she stops, all well and good. If she doesn't stop, you can end the interaction, by walking away, or whatever. This isn't controlling her, but it's control of your own behavior that you are entitled to have in your relationship.

thank you.  Your correct that there isn't anything to lose by implementing boundaries.  I know that it's not going to be a large amount in a short time but a gradual thing over time. 

[StartingHealing]

Cat, I do believe that you are totally accurate in that.  For me personally, I've been through some situations where I almost died, Once maybe I did, IDK.  That gives me a way different perspective than most.  While it can be a strength, in the relationship with spouse, it turned into a liability.

I thought that I better explain some more.  Being in those situations where physical death is very close,  that changes a person to where much of what could be a serious issue to someone, like a checkout person being snarky, or a driver cutting you off, or ... ?   It doesn't really have an affect on me.  I mean, is that going to be important in 5 years?  Not that I took any of these actions as an attack on my sense of self.  Depending on the situation, will the fight or flight kick in?  Sure, but IDK, maybe it's given me the ability to shake it off like a dog does.  In regards to spouse, it appears that this ability was taken as if there wasn't a boundary that  she would feel secure in.   Cat does that make sense?

[Cat Familiar]

That totally makes sense: that you have a big picture about life and the insignificant things aren’t worth bothering with.

It’s a wonderful perspective for you, however, how your wife sees you could be very different from how it feels to be you.

For example, not demonstrating annoyance or frustration when she is demanding or being negative, can be one of those areas where you feel it’s a momentary issue that is insignificant in the long run.

To her, it might seem like you don’t care about her, or that you’re weak because you don’t defend yourself, or that you aren’t paying attention to her wants and needs, or any of a number of other thoughts.

This is not to say that you need to get down in the mud with her and fight. After all, we say “Don’t JADE.” What I’m trying to say is that your ability to withdraw and not have a reaction could be potentially triggering to her.

How to get around this? I understand, because I’m pretty laid back and can be OK with a variety of options. My husband often thinks I don’t care, which is far from the truth. I care, and there are things that other people are far more invested in and opinionated about, and pretty much whatever option they want is fine with me.

To him, it seems like I’m dumping responsibility on him instead of accepting it myself. It seems like I’m too passive. Like I’m too checked out or unavailable.

There are certain things that I have a very strong opinion about and I’ll go to the mat to defend, and there are lots of other things that are relatively meaningless that I’m much happier to let others get their preference since it doesn’t much matter to me.

How to fix this? Communication. Asking questions.

I don’t know if this addresses what you were talking about, but if not, let’s explore it in greater depth.

[StartingHealing]

That totally makes sense: that you have a big picture about life and the insignificant things aren’t worth bothering with.

It’s a wonderful perspective for you, however, how your wife sees you could be very different from how it feels to be you.   

For example, not demonstrating annoyance or frustration when she is demanding or being negative, can be one of those areas where you feel it’s a momentary issue that is insignificant in the long run.

To her, it might seem like you don’t care about her, or that you’re weak because you don’t defend yourself, or that you aren’t paying attention to her wants and needs, or any of a number of other thoughts.

This is not to say that you need to get down in the mud with her and fight. After all, we say “Don’t JADE.” What I’m trying to say is that your ability to withdraw and not have a reaction could be potentially triggering to her.

How to get around this? I understand, because I’m pretty laid back and can be OK with a variety of options. My husband often thinks I don’t care, which is far from the truth. I care, and there are things that other people are far more invested in and opinionated about, and pretty much whatever option they want is fine with me.

To him, it seems like I’m dumping responsibility on him instead of accepting it myself. It seems like I’m too passive. Like I’m too checked out or unavailable.

There are certain things that I have a very strong opinion about and I’ll go to the mat to defend, and there are lots of other things that are relatively meaningless that I’m much happier to let others get their preference since it doesn’t much matter to me.

How to fix this? Communication. Asking questions.

I don’t know if this addresses what you were talking about, but if not, let’s explore it in greater depth.

I would like to get into it on a deeper level with you Cat.

the first thing I would like to know is a reliable way to determine what is really real for her.  My current perception is that it shifts based on ?  Or is that not a possible with BPD?

Perhaps part of it is that I'm male and she's female.

Also for a long time, I've been in a reactionary mode instead of taking an active role in the relationship.  I'm slowly implementing changes in how I communicate with her.  I'm making clear statements of what I like, what I don't, and not explaining why. 

Admittedly, I do have some issues myself from being a adoption survivor. 

Attempting to analyze prior communication with her,  it appears that part of it, happens to be that she isn't having the feelings of being "protected".  Which is odd since at the same time she puts herself out as being strong and independent. 

Which part of this is accurate enough to go on? Is it both, depending on ? or is part of it projection of what she would like to feel like,  or ?

I've had the lightbulb of I didn't cause it, I can't control it, I can't cure it, but it's only been recently that the ramifications of that lightbulb is settling in.  You know?

Finished "Stop Caretaking the BPD - NPD" book.  And  "Stop Walking On Eggshells"

Lots to consider.  And I got to get my self into a healthly space. 

[Cat Familiar]

Determining what is real for someone with BPD is a shifting tide. We say in BPD world, “Feelings equal facts.” So one day she will feel one way, and what is important to her is X. On another day, she will feel differently, and what’s important is Y.

We all have our different moods and changeable emotions, but generally we are consistent on the big picture of our values and priorities. Not so for people with BPD. You’ll read on this forum countless stories of people confessing undying love, only to discard their partner the next day. That’s an extreme example for sure, but it also happens for mundane stuff. I’ve seen my husband take up hobbies with enthusiasm only to forget about them two weeks later.

Having strong boundaries is a necessity in a relationship with a BPD partner. It’s much like how children need boundaries to feel safe and loved. She may complain at times, but knowing where you stand allows her to feel a sense of certainty, something she’s unlikely to generate for herself.

I’m strong and independent and I don’t have BPD, but I like when my partner offers to take care of me. For example, today I’m having some concrete poured in the horse barn. I saved up some money for it, got an estimate, and didn’t discuss it with my husband. He’s insisted that he will pay for it. (He’s got a much greater net worth than I do.) Though I was willing to take on the expense, that he offered, makes me feel loved and supported.

[StartingHealing]

Determining what is real for someone with BPD is a shifting tide. We say in BPD world, “Feelings equal facts.” So one day she will feel one way, and what is important to her is X. On another day, she will feel differently, and what’s important is Y.

I see.  It's starting to come together as far as my understanding.

We all have our different moods and changeable emotions, but generally we are consistent on the big picture of our values and priorities. Not so for people with BPD. You’ll read on this forum countless stories of people confessing undying love, only to discard their partner the next day. That’s an extreme example for sure, but it also happens for mundane stuff. I’ve seen my husband take up hobbies with enthusiasm only to forget about them two weeks later.

Same with her.  Get fully into something (hobby) or a what I call a "crusade" and then in a X amount of time, just drop it. 

Having strong boundaries is a necessity in a relationship with a BPD partner. It’s much like how children need boundaries to feel safe and loved. She may complain at times, but knowing where you stand allows her to feel a sense of certainty, something she’s unlikely to generate for herself.

Working on boundaries.  I'm suspecting that due to natural temperament and childhood, my base of operations is caretaking.   Believe it or not, I do feel anxiety when I start asking myself what I like, don't like, etc.

I’m strong and independent and I don’t have BPD, but I like when my partner offers to take care of me. For example, today I’m having some concrete poured in the horse barn. I saved up some money for it, got an estimate, and didn’t discuss it with my husband. He’s insisted that he will pay for it. (He’s got a much greater net worth than I do.) Though I was willing to take on the expense, that he offered, makes me feel loved and supported.

Oh yes!  Freely offered actions are wonderful!  But actions where it becomes apparent that there is an agenda... Kinda rough to take, you know?

[StartingHealing]

Hello Cat.

Been a strange few days for me.  I was able to stand up for myself by telling BP spouse to stop shaking her finger in my face back on Sat.  Sun was good, I was very present and very up emotionally.  Mon was like Sun, Tue was alright, Wed I was kinda quiet.  I'm finding that I am having anxiety.

Wondering on what is weird in me for having this feeling.

Is it from my stepping into an area that is new for me?  Or WTH?

[Cat Familiar]

If you’re not used to being assertive, it can feel uncomfortable. There was a time when I wondered if I was turning into a narcissist.

This article on assertiveness is more tailored for the workplace, but the concepts are useful in relationships too.  https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/Assertiveness.htm

When we haven’t expressed our own wants, needs, desires because: 1. We haven’t known what we want  2. We are accustomed to accommodating a needy partner. 3. We have a habit of keeping our head down to avoid trouble and confrontation  4. We want to please others  5. We don't have a strong sense of what we want  6. We fear being candid   or any of a number of other reasons…

When we haven't spoken up for what we want, or don’t want, it feels awkward, upsetting, selfish, frightening, anxious, or fill in any other unpleasant emotion, to do so.

Once we realize it how well it works, we are on our way to building up a new positive habit.

[StartingHealing]

If you’re not used to being assertive, it can feel uncomfortable. There was a time when I wondered if I was turning into a narcissist.

This article on assertiveness is more tailored for the workplace, but the concepts are useful in relationships too.  https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/Assertiveness.htm

When we haven’t expressed our own wants, needs, desires because: 1. We haven’t known what we want  2. We are accustomed to accommodating a needy partner. 3. We have a habit of keeping our head down to avoid trouble and confrontation  4. We want to please others  5. We don't have a strong sense of what we want  6. We fear being candid   or any of a number of other reasons…

When we haven't spoken up for what we want, or don’t want, it feels awkward, upsetting, selfish, frightening, anxious, or fill in any other unpleasant emotion, to do so.

Once we realize it how well it works, we are on our way to building up a new positive habit.

Cat, it's really freaky for me at the moment.  It's like that one act uncorked a lot of emotional stuff. That is all over the place.  If that makes any sense.

Don't know if this will help you with savvy the situation but I did find out that wBPD was in hospital a week after birth.  She's a fraternal twin.  Her brother was the "chosen" child.  She had an aunt who was diagnosed  with schizophrenia and was in a care facility under she passed from natural causes, and her mother had something... her mother attempted to commit suicide twice in her life.  Spouse was also a mother by 20.

Besides the anxiety, I'm also finding myself starting to consider becoming sexually intimate with her.  Not that I am counting on her to accept.  That is something there for sure since it's been quite a while, and she did express that she would like to but then again, that was in the middle of an outburst soo is that an expression on what she really is looking for or was it something that she was using as a means to attempt to loop me back into enmeshment?

Goddamnit.  The reason the the sexual intimacy backed off was the fairly consistent drip of the BPD negativity, projection, attempted shaming, etc.

If alterK is right with how having boundaries helps us the non's but it also helps the PD's..

I'm confused at the moment.

Honestly, there were times where I did have a wish for her to pass from this realm.

Did I catch some fleas from her?

[alterK]

Starting, I wonder if you are being tempted to go to fast in making changes. It's like you have been in a dark room, have opened a door and are suddenly being hit by the light, but can't see clearly yet.

Maybe  you ought to step back and take some deep breaths. Of course you want things to be better! There indeed is a time when it's appropriate to take risks, but it sounds to me as if you are still very uncertain about how she will react.

Don't forget, a major basis of BPD is fear. You are dealing with a fundamentally frightened person who is far from acknowledging the truth. A frightened person, like a frightened animal, can react unpredictably. Do some more reading!

[StartingHealing]

Thanks for the reply alterK

Starting, I wonder if you are being tempted to go to fast in making changes. It's like you have been in a dark room, have opened a door and are suddenly being hit by the light, but can't see clearly yet.

The too fast thing.  I know that it took a long while to get where we are.  However, does that mean that it will take the same amount of time to get to a healthier relationship?  My prior post was based off of emotional swings.

 The fact of having my own agency in the relationship, one of those concepts that was "known" but not fully accepted, but with the one action of standing up for myself, it suddenly "clicked" that I can actually take action.  If that makes any sense.

Maybe  you ought to step back and take some deep breaths. Of course you want things to be better! There indeed is a time when it's appropriate to take risks, but it sounds to me as if you are still very uncertain about how she will react.

Oh yeah, I'm taking a step back and have been doing deep breathing!  That is also a thing.  Fear of conflict.  Right?  So fear of conflict = poor or porous borders which also increases the fear level in the BPD.  If I have a understanding of the basic place BPD operates from. 
Counterintuitive as is appears, at least for me, at this time, it appears (based on her actions / reactions to me) that by getting through the fear of "conflict" has allowed me to be more secure in self.  Which also means that there is less load on wBPD.  Does that make sense?   

Don't forget, a major basis of BPD is fear. You are dealing with a fundamentally frightened person who is far from acknowledging the truth. A frightened person, like a frightened animal, can react unpredictably. Do some more reading!

Yes, I do have understanding of operating out of fear.  It sucks.  Sucks really badly.  I will report that since last weekend, with my increased self assurance, and more consistent actions of sticking up for myself, she has been more physically affectionate.  No I have not attempted to initiate sexual intimacy. 

I have been reading and also listening to audiobooks.  Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist. Stop walking on eggshells, co-dependent no more and there are others that I don't remember off the top of my head. 

[StartingHealing]

Update:

AlterK,  allow me to explain about how I know about living in fear.  In my case, being adopted was not the wonderful gift that the usual narrative states.  From about 4ish, when I found out that I was adopted, till the farm was sold, I had a level of fear about if I didn't "perform" I would be replaced.  Add in that it was a closed adoption, no genetic mirrors, and the person in the role of mother was addicted to xanax... I do feel that I know all to well what it is to live in fear.

Recently (last couple of weeks) I have been implementing boundaries, and simultaneously been expressing  my preferences.  Gradually, very gradually. 

So far, there has been the expected fussing, the smaller daily dramas, etc.

I do have a question.  Is it a usual thing for a PD to be overly concerned about being the focus of others nefarious schemes? 

Peace

[alterK]

Two things that often go with BPD are paranoia and projecting. Paranoia, as we all know, involves attributing evil or malevolent feelings or intentions to someone where none really exist. Or to feel the same about some general situation.

Projection is seeing in someone else a feeling that is actually in you, but that you are unable to acknowledge, usually due to fear. These two things often go hand in hand and are impossible to separate.

[StartingHealing]

@Cat Familiar

Got some time today to really hit the homework hard.  Made significant progress which feels really good to me.  WPD went swimming to do the mermaid thing.

I have been grieving.  Grieving over what could have been, the should have been, the loss of what hope I had been hanging onto.  I know that it's a normal thing to go through.  That doesn't stop it from being sucky.

I have found that my safe area to express my emotions that could convey "weakness"  is when I am not around her.   I know that is also typical situation with a spouse with a PD.

I have found myself worrying less about her emotional state, after all it is her responsibility,  and have become more focused on what I am feeling / sensing / dreaming / achieving. 

Feels really nice to have my self worth based on my own perceptions rather than through a distorted vision of projection and paranoia, which she still is attempting to push on me.

It appears that she has a eating disorder as well as the PD.  Recently she has been attempting to find the magic combo of herbs, vitamins, etc. that will "correct" her weight and "allow" her to lose approximately 20 lbs.  Of course she blames me and my issues with how she looks as her excuse for us not being sexually intimate. 

Sigh.

Having a conversation where I can explain my point of view, no right or wrong, on any topic of discussion is  problematic at best since everything that I do / do not do is directed towards her.  As an example.  I have an interest in learning Espanol.  Thinking that perhaps one day it will come in handy if I decide to travel in latin america.  You know, know some of the lingo, don't be a total and complete gringo.   We did have a discussion about possibly retiring to a latin america country with a much lower cost of living.  That of course was totally nixed by her because of her fears of not knowing the language, if I died how would she survive, etc. etc.  I told her that since you feel that strongly about it then the idea, just the idea mind you, was off the table.  She agreed.   That doesn't mean that I'm not still interested in learning Espanol.  For nothing else than for my own edification. 

Occasionally, I will tune the car radio to a station that plays that type of music.  Mind you she is not in the car when this happens.  I once forgot to change the radio station back to "her" music and when she drove it..  It took about two weeks for her to finally stop going on about how I was pushing the issue of moving to Mexico, then Costa Rica, then it was Colombia... sigh.

With that kind of reaction, I haven't yet figured out how to have an adult conversation with her concerning sexual intimacy.   There was a huge amount of push / pull on her side, and it got to a point where after that and being subjected to the shaming language, placing herself into the role of "victim" being insulted, and verbally attacked.. at the time the juice wasn't worth the squeeze,  and when it appears that things are going good enough twixt us that I start making small advances, ( I do not know if it is causal thing or not) there is something, somewhere, which ends up with her engaging in the same shaming, insulting, attacking, loop. 

I have other posts where I have described the typical encounter and how it usually went.  I have been considering that she was projecting her own "stuff" every moment we were in sexual congress.  If that is so, then it didn't / don't / won't matter how attentive, how many orgasms, how comfortable she is,  not a single thing would matter since it the reality couldn't get through the projection(s).  I may be incorrect here. 

At the moment I don't know.  I don't know if I have to tools / techniques to breach the subject without facing a full on victim mode scream-a-thon. 

Sometimes I really wonder if I'm kicking a dead horse here or not. 

Looking forward to your insights into this Cat.

Peace

[Cat Familiar]

It’s tremendously disappointing to face the facts of the limits of a relationship with a partner with a personality disorder. That said, the fewer traits, the more hopeful the prognosis.

Even so, it will never be as easygoing as being in a relationship with an emotionally healthy partner.

What seems to provide the most happiness and satisfaction for the *non* in the relationship is to quit ordering your life around the dysfunction of your partner. It’s easier said than done, since most of us who’ve paired up with a pwBPD are people pleasers, codependents, caretakers, who’ve defined our self worth through trying to make our loved ones happy…a thankless task.

Once we can get past that inclination it seems that our relationships often improve for the better. When we realize that we cannot change our partners, only change our response to them and what we choose to do, then we retake much of the freedom and breadth of opportunities that we previously sacrificed in the fruitless search to please them.

When we can truly be ourselves in the relationship, it seems it either will get better or it will become obvious that it will end.

It’s sad to think that our partners often are not interested or concerned with our perspective, unless it somehow impacts them, but realizing this is a good starting point. It’s fruitless to try and pursue conversations sharing our point of view with someone who’d rather not hear it.

That said, when relationships are dysfunctional, you get the worst side of your partner. When, over time, you can remove conflict, there is a possibility of repair of the relationship. It will never be that wondrous time when you believed all was possible, when you were living on the pedestal and could do no wrong, but it can be considerably better than what you are currently experiencing.

How to reinstill intimacy? This is a tough one, since pwBPD can be so sexually open at the beginning of the relationship, yet so closed down later, when they feel vulnerable.

Best to try and repair the relationship in general, improving communication and removing conflict. Over time, you will build trust, and with trust, greater intimacy can occur.

It’s good not to have an agenda, as pwBPD will sniff out any motives that require them to let down their guard, and become more wary in the process.

Not what you wanted to hear, but improving the overall relationship will give you a much better chance at restoring sexual intimacy too.

[StartingHealing]

It’s tremendously disappointing to face the facts of the limits of a relationship with a partner with a personality disorder. That said, the fewer traits, the more hopeful the prognosis.

That makes sense, however it appears that either her pattern is worsening over time or I'm becoming more cognizant of the expressions of it.  Also coming to grips with how it appears that she processes things.  If that makes any sense.

Even so, it will never be as easygoing as being in a relationship with an emotionally healthy partner.

  Agreed.  Personally, IMO everybody has their quirks and that is part of how they express themselves. 

What seems to provide the most happiness and satisfaction for the *non* in the relationship is to quit ordering your life around the dysfunction of your partner. It’s easier said than done, since most of us who’ve paired up with a pwBPD are people pleasers, codependents, caretakers, who’ve defined our self worth through trying to make our loved ones happy…a thankless task.

Oh yes, at least for me, now, my self worth isn't tied to her moment to moment feelings.  Yeah, definitely caretaking on my side, however, I am changing that.  Once I finally got the 3 C's, that started perking through the rest of my mental / emotional landscape.   

Once we can get past that inclination it seems that our relationships often improve for the better. When we realize that we cannot change our partners, only change our response to them and what we choose to do, then we retake much of the freedom and breadth of opportunities that we previously sacrificed in the fruitless search to please them.

Most definitely.   

When we can truly be ourselves in the relationship, it seems it either will get better or it will become obvious that it will end.

  I hope that I can get to that point where I can be 100% me 100% of the time.  I think that I've made progress in that regard. 

It’s sad to think that our partners often are not interested or concerned with our perspective, unless it somehow impacts them, but realizing this is a good starting point. It’s fruitless to try and pursue conversations sharing our point of view with someone who’d rather not hear it.

  Very sad indeed.   

That said, when relationships are dysfunctional, you get the worst side of your partner. When, over time, you can remove conflict, there is a possibility of repair of the relationship. It will never be that wondrous time when you believed all was possible, when you were living on the pedestal and could do no wrong, but it can be considerably better than what you are currently experiencing.

  True,  Kind of strange but it's the paradox that the more I take self responsibility and the less caretaking behaviors I do, the more she moves towards more expression of what could be considered healthy traits. 

How to reinstill intimacy? This is a tough one, since pwBPD can be so sexually open at the beginning of the relationship, yet so closed down later, when they feel vulnerable.

  Is it a possibility that her projections kicked in after the idealization phase ended?   

Best to try and repair the relationship in general, improving communication and removing conflict. Over time, you will build trust, and with trust, greater intimacy can occur.

  I've been doing what I can to repair the relationship.  It appears that part of her pattern is to push things to attempt to have some conflict in order for her to 'release' some emotional distress.   

It’s good not to have an agenda, as pwBPD will sniff out any motives that require them to let down their guard, and become more wary in the process.

  I'm confused Cat.  Agenda for ?  Yes, I would like to be intimate with my spouse (biological drive you know) however after the fallout from other non - sexual situations ... Admittedly I am spooked, really spooked about actually doing the deed as it were. 

Not what you wanted to hear, but improving the overall relationship will give you a much better chance at restoring sexual intimacy too.

  Cat, was expressing the confusion, longing, and attempting to get things worked around in my own head so that I can come from the place of acceptance.  Does that make sense?   

[Cat Familiar]

Responding to your questions, trying to get inside the head of a pwBPD is a distinct challenge for a non-BPD since our thinking processes are ordered quite differently. It can be pretty abrupt when the idealization phase ends, or begins to end.

I remember visiting my husband’s sister across the country. One night after dinner, we were lying in bed and my husband began talking about how his sister disregarded him, disrespected him, didn’t care about him, demeaned him—and I was thinking, WHAT?

I hadn’t noticed any behaviors that evening that fell within that description. So I asked, “Why do you think that?”

He mentioned that he didn’t “feel like part of the family.” And I was thinking, hey, we are visiting her now, WTF?

I’m not sure what I said, but it was something to the effect that she was really busy between work and her kids and we live on the opposite coast…

He shot back with a glare I’ll never forget, “You’re on her side!”

And I was thinking, I just met her, and I married you.

So that was the first time I saw the beginning of the end of the idealization phase.

However pwBPD get to that point where they no longer idealize their partners is a mystery to me. For some, it seems to happen within weeks. For others, it’s after some type of commitment. And with others, it might not happen for years, until some drastic external event occurs.

So it’s very possible that indeed she started projecting things on you after that phase ended. I wouldn’t be too concerned about trying to understand how or why she did that, as that can take you deep down the BPD rabbit hole without offering any helpful solutions or strategies.

It appears that part of her pattern is to push things to attempt to have some conflict in order for her to 'release' some emotional distress.    

BINGO!  Yes, exactly. PwBPD need outlets to release emotional distress, and often we are a convenient vehicle. Removing yourself from that role will allow her to practice self-soothing skills that she has neglected to learn, as most of us do by an early age.

It’s hard to fight with someone who stands their ground and doesn’t get upset. Furthermore it’s not your job to be the target of her emotional distress. PwBPD are notorious about not having adequate self-reflective skills. You certainly can express sympathy, but at the same time, give her a chance to dig deeper and understand what’s underlying her distress. However, being a target of it does no favors to either of you.

When I spoke of “agenda” I was referring to you thinking of how you could speak about having an “adult conversation with her regarding sexual intimacy.” Typically these types of planned talks don’t go well with pwBPD. Even with an emotionally healthy partner, a conversation about sexual intimacy can be extremely triggering.

Think of it this way—sex is one of those things that is so personal and so fraught. Even in relationships that are working well, this type of conversation can bring up insecurities.

Now think about the essential nature of BPD. People who have it, don’t have a strong secure identity. They feel tremendous self loathing and insecurity, which they often mask through blaming and projection. Having “the talk” with someone like this is bound to be less productive than with someone with a healthy sense of self and good boundaries.

Of course you want to restore sexual intimacy. That’s an important part of the relationship. You know your wife is really insecure just because of the BPD, but in addition she’s very worried that she is not attractive physically. How do you get past her fear?

First of all, I wonder what Love Language type she is. https://www.familycentre.org/news/post/5-different-ways-to-show-love-and-improve-your-relationship

The five are :
1. Words of affirmation
2. Acts of service
3. Receiving gifts
4. Quality time
5. Physical touch

My love language is Acts of service. There were times when I tried to show my husband love through doing nice things for him and he was oblivious to those expressions of love and wondered why I was always doing things. His language is Words of affirmation. Likewise he’d tell me nice things about myself, and instead of thinking he was showing me love, I’d wonder why he was trying to manipulate me through his words.  

So knowing how your expressions of love are received by your wife would be a good starting point.

To get back to reanimating sexual intimacy. First of all, sexuality is not an intellectual exercise. You are spooked based on your experience of her BPD behavior. She is frightened because she is BPD as well as the “normal” worries of adult women about their physical attractiveness.

I train animals. Not as a profession, just as a hobby, and mostly because I want to be safe around them. Can’t have a 900 pound horse having a hissy fit up close and personal. Therefore I have to be really aware of minimal cues, body language—my own and theirs. I look at facial cues, breathing rates, body tension, etc. I adjust my own body as I respond to theirs. It’s like a dance. Retreat, and advance, over and over.

That is something I suggest you try with your wife. Have you held her hand recently? Go very slowly, and be prepared to disengage at the slightest hint of tension. Be ready to reengage at the slightest response of openness. Baby steps…for both of you. You’ll get there, just take it slowly and build trust—for both of you.

[StartingHealing]

Responding to your questions, trying to get inside the head of a pwBPD is a distinct challenge for a non-BPD since our thinking processes are ordered quite differently. It can be pretty abrupt when the idealization phase ends, or begins to end.

I'm not attempting to get inside anybody's head except my own.
 Yet, like you mention, there are signs of a shift that is happening. 

I remember visiting my husband’s sister across the country. One night after dinner, we were lying in bed and my husband began talking about how his sister disregarded him, disrespected him, didn’t care about him, demeaned him—and I was thinking, WHAT?

I hadn’t noticed any behaviors that evening that fell within that description. So I asked, “Why do you think that?”

He mentioned that he didn’t “feel like part of the family.” And I was thinking, hey, we are visiting her now, WTF?

I’m not sure what I said, but it was something to the effect that she was really busy between work and her kids and we live on the opposite coast…

He shot back with a glare I’ll never forget, “You’re on her side!”

And I was thinking, I just met her, and I married you.

So that was the first time I saw the beginning of the end of the idealization phase.

However pwBPD get to that point where they no longer idealize their partners is a mystery to me. For some, it seems to happen within weeks. For others, it’s after some type of commitment. And with others, it might not happen for years, until some drastic external event occurs.

So it’s very possible that indeed she started projecting things on you after that phase ended. I wouldn’t be too concerned about trying to understand how or why she did that, as that can take you deep down the BPD rabbit hole without offering any helpful solutions or strategies.

Not going down that rabbit warren, I guess that I'm still in the space where attempting to connect behaviors. 

It appears that part of her pattern is to push things to attempt to have some conflict in order for her to 'release' some emotional distress.    

BINGO!  Yes, exactly. PwBPD need outlets to release emotional distress, and often we are a convenient vehicle. Removing yourself from that role will allow her to practice self-soothing skills that she has neglected to learn, as most of us do by an early age.

It’s hard to fight with someone who stands their ground and doesn’t get upset. Furthermore it’s not your job to be the target of her emotional distress. PwBPD are notorious about not having adequate self-reflective skills. You certainly can express sympathy, but at the same time, give her a chance to dig deeper and understand what’s underlying her distress. However, being a target of it does no favors to either of you.

When I spoke of “agenda” I was referring to you thinking of how you could speak about having an “adult conversation with her regarding sexual intimacy.” Typically these types of planned talks don’t go well with pwBPD. Even with an emotionally healthy partner, a conversation about sexual intimacy can be extremely triggering.

Yeah.  It's weird though since at the beginning of our marriage we did have those types of conversations. 

Think of it this way—sex is one of those things that is so personal and so fraught. Even in relationships that are working well, this type of conversation can bring up insecurities.

Now think about the essential nature of BPD. People who have it, don’t have a strong secure identity. They feel tremendous self loathing and insecurity, which they often mask through blaming and projection. Having “the talk” with someone like this is bound to be less productive than with someone with a healthy sense of self and good boundaries.

Of course you want to restore sexual intimacy. That’s an important part of the relationship. You know your wife is really insecure just because of the BPD, but in addition she’s very worried that she is not attractive physically. How do you get past her fear?

First of all, I wonder what Love Language type she is. https://www.familycentre.org/news/post/5-different-ways-to-show-love-and-improve-your-relationship

The five are :
1. Words of affirmation
2. Acts of service
3. Receiving gifts
4. Quality time
5. Physical touch

My love language is Acts of service. There were times when I tried to show my husband love through doing nice things for him and he was oblivious to those expressions of love and wondered why I was always doing things. His language is Words of affirmation. Likewise he’d tell me nice things about myself, and instead of thinking he was showing me love, I’d wonder why he was trying to manipulate me through his words.  

So knowing how your expressions of love are received by your wife would be a good starting point.

A couple of years ago there was a huge blow out between her and I.  It was not short, nor nice, nor even high school level, it was the typical circular arguments, no objective behaviors, mainly projection and her having to express emotional distress.  After the blow up, I did read  / listen to the 5 love languages.  I tried, I busted hump in trying to communicate with her and attempting to find out her love language and ... well,  it became a moving target, which is also usual for her.  After I found this space and others, I have changed how I interact with her and it currently appears to be better.  Validation, no JADE, SET, not being invalidating, etc. Still appears that her language shifts.   

To get back to reanimating sexual intimacy. First of all, sexuality is not an intellectual exercise. You are spooked based on your experience of her BPD behavior. She is frightened because she is BPD as well as the “normal” worries of adult women about their physical attractiveness.

Cat, let me clue you in on something.  The typical man, has marriage goggles, all he sees is the gal as she was when he married her.  No concern of "hail damage" or things being not as firm as they once were. 
 That is partially why non(s) that are men have such a damn hard time with recognizing and accepting that there is a BPD thing happening.  I was totally in that camp.  It was after many years of typical BPD behavior that the reality of the situation was such I couldn't keep the googles on any longer since it was actively destroying me. 

I train animals. Not as a profession, just as a hobby, and mostly because I want to be safe around them. Can’t have a 900 pound horse having a hissy fit up close and personal. Therefore I have to be really aware of minimal cues, body language—my own and theirs. I look at facial cues, breathing rates, body tension, etc. I adjust my own body as I respond to theirs. It’s like a dance. Retreat, and advance, over and over.

That is something I suggest you try with your wife. Have you held her hand recently? Go very slowly, and be prepared to disengage at the slightest hint of tension. Be ready to reengage at the slightest response of openness. Baby steps…for both of you. You’ll get there, just take it slowly and build trust—for both of you.

Yes, I have held her hand recently.  I also have been going slowly which is really odd comparing to our relationship at the beginning. 

Trust.  This is difficult for me at the moment. Perhaps I'm not explaining it well but, I grew up on a dairy farm, we did have horses as well.  I know of what you are talking about.  Animals are really good because they are consistent.  Still working on building that knowledge base with the spouse since I haven't yet figured out her "patterns".  If that makes sense.  Plus I need to forgive / release past situations in which her projections / shame directed towards me in regards to situations relating to our sexual interactions.  I am making progress since I am even considering being sexually active with her.

Thank you for your insight.  You are helping me with putting things together.  I do appreciate it. 

[Cat Familiar]

You’ve been traumatized…by her words and her behavior. And of course you are concerned about being hurt again. It’s painful when the person we love responds in an unkind and thoughtless manner. To heal, we need to forgive them as well as ourselves for allowing them to hurt us, not an easy task.

Usually at the beginning of a relationship with a pwBPD, there is an unusual degree of intimacy. However, after the idealization phase, there’s a whole other *rulebook* in play, one for which we have no concept of the rules. In addition, the rules can switch from moment to moment.

That’s why I used the animal metaphor. Observing minimal cues, body language, voice tones, facial expression, coloration, tension, etc. can give us a pretty good roadmap of what our BPD loved one is experiencing in the moment. We will never know the exact details of course, unless they share that with us, which is most unlikely. But that doesn’t matter. It will give us a general idea of what is a red light, what is a yellow caution light, and what is a green light—and we can proceed accordingly.

It’s great that you are validating, not invalidating, not JADEing, using SET. It’s taken a lot of effort to learn how to do all that, and undoubtedly it’s becoming more automatic with time. And time is what it takes to restore these relationships once they get off on the wrong foot.

[StartingHealing]

You’ve been traumatized…
Yeah, your right.  Damnit.
by her words and her behavior.
Definitely.  There have been multiple times that she has brought up things I had previously shared with her,  private, extremely vulnerable, things and she weaponized them against me. She is very good at weaponizing pretty much everything.  And then complains that I'm not open and vulnerable with her.  smh  Isn't that also typical for BPD?
 And of course you are concerned about being hurt again. It’s painful when the person we love responds in an unkind and thoughtless manner.  To heal, we need to forgive them as well as ourselves for allowing them to hurt us, not an easy task.

  I'm working on that.  I ran across a quote which went kinda like this:  "For another person to hurt us verbally we are complicit in it. For we have agreed with their assessment at some level."
 It appears that I need to start reading on Stoicism and how it applies.

Usually at the beginning of a relationship with a pwBPD, there is an unusual degree of intimacy.
Love Bombing, right?
However, after the idealization phase, there’s a whole other *rulebook* in play, one for which we have no concept of the rules. In addition, the rules can switch from moment to moment.

For sure.  Changing rule books.  Daily / hourly / minute  by minute at times. At times it's frustrating.

That’s why I used the animal metaphor. Observing minimal cues, body language, voice tones, facial expression, coloration, tension, etc. can give us a pretty good roadmap of what our BPD loved one is experiencing in the moment. We will never know the exact details of course, unless they share that with us, which is most unlikely. But that doesn’t matter. It will give us a general idea of what is a red light, what is a yellow caution light, and what is a green light—and we can proceed accordingly.

Good analogy.  Thank you. 

It’s great that you are validating, not invalidating, not JADEing, using SET. It’s taken a lot of effort to learn how to do all that, and undoubtedly it’s becoming more automatic with time. And time is what it takes to restore these relationships once they get off on the wrong foot.

Thank you Cat.  Have much to continue working on.  I admit that I do have doubts and emotions to resolve.