Completely Lost, Separated and in Process of Divorce BUT LOVE HER

[Good Intentions]

I care more about bringing her on this journey and a different path and ability for us to take a different path than any kind of celebration...

I feel this...I'd give up a lot in my life (more than I already have) to feel like I'm securely walking the path with my ex-pwBPD.

It's interesting the language we use - you care more about bringing her on this journey / this different path that you see as an option that leads to the brighter future we all want to believe exists.

Part of my "radical acceptance" has been that my role in her journey is minimal, even if she wants me to be a part of it. I can't learn anything for anyone else. I can't develop the skills that she needs to be in a healthy relationship (empathy, forgiveness, accountability) for her...

Even if I make a list of what those skills are, the best techniques to developing them, ways to practice, etc. None of that matters if she doesn't want to buy in. And believe me, I've tried to help in what I thought were positive ways. Researching topics, developing lists of ways to express feelings in a healthy way, but my effort & determination to help her realize self-improvement has very little effect relative to her own willpower. And without a genuine desire to change, without that internal motivation in the heart of the pwBPD, we are foolish to believe that things will be different.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MobyCloud]

I feel this...I'd give up a lot in my life (more than I already have) to feel like I'm securely walking the path with my ex-pwBPD.

It's interesting the language we use - you care more about bringing her on this journey / this different path that you see as an option that leads to the brighter future we all want to believe exists.

Part of my "radical acceptance" has been that my role in her journey is minimal, even if she wants me to be a part of it. I can't learn anything for anyone else. I can't develop the skills that she needs to be in a healthy relationship (empathy, forgiveness, accountability) for her...

Even if I make a list of what those skills are, the best techniques to developing them, ways to practice, etc. None of that matters if she doesn't want to buy in. And believe me, I've tried to help in what I thought were positive ways. Researching topics, developing lists of ways to express feelings in a healthy way, but my effort & determination to help her realize self-improvement has very little effect relative to her own willpower. And without a genuine desire to change, without that internal motivation in the heart of the pwBPD, we are foolish to believe that things will be different.

Thank you for sharing your journey with me. I appreciate you.

[MobyCloud]

She finally signed the protective order today.
It doesn't change anything, but I got an email from my lawyer while working (few times she isn't actively on my mind).
It made me throw up.
The reality of the situation and what I've had to do to protect my kids.
I love her but I feel like I just made the ultimate sacrifice.
This process is so challenging.
On one hand, it could be the thing she needs to go through in order to heal.
On the other hand, it could push her deeper into her false sense of self and push back her healing for a long time.
Regardless, because she is violent and non trustworthy, it is what is best for our kids.
Still having trouble with radical acceptance.
I find myself day dreaming she shows up at our door and just begs for forgiveness with a plan on how she plans to fix everything.
I keep thinking what I would do if I was in her shoes, but I am the type to prioritize the kids and family over myself.
I hate myself for loving someone so much who can't prioritize the "right" things.
I am not being judgmental -- but I think there are a lot of people who agree falling on one's sword is worth it for the greater good of the family.
I would rather be truthful, vulnerable and with my family than fake, lonely and estranged.

[GaGrl]

She could show up with the most detailed plan imaginable, but could she commit and execute that plan over time?

[MobyCloud]

She could show up with the most detailed plan imaginable, but could she commit and execute that plan over time?

It depends on what actions she has taken prior to showing up.
If there were not kids involved I would give her one last chance.

[MobyCloud]

Packed up all her stuff for the second time in our relationship.
I even moved all her stuff back and dealt with it last time we reconciled.
Kind of hit me -- I am always having to deal with all the ramifications of our dysfunction and she doesn't.
Over it.

[mitten]

Sorry you're going through this Moby. 

[MobyCloud]

Sorry you're going through this Moby. 

It is all good. I am "getting there." I love her and wish I showed more compassion for her situation while we were together. If she felt more secure, I assume she would have had an easier time approaching a therapist, therapy, healing, etc. I hope she finds herself. Even if that means she is a different person, wants different things, etc. Even if that means there is no reconciliation in the future. I truly love her, and that love is what keeps me wanting to "bring her to the table." I have been told it's codependency, and a small part likely is. But at the end of the day, if I was going through what she is going through, even if she will not admit it, see it, or believe it, I would want someone to be as loving and compassionate as I am trying to be. And as I have tried to be. The kicker is we have two kids, and our oldest is already severely impacted by what he has heard and witnessed. If kids weren't in the picture, I would risk the worst case scenario, but with kids in the picture, I have been forced to (happy to do it) do what is best for them even though it annihilated a relationship hanging by a thread.

[mitten]

If kids weren't in the picture, I would risk the worst case scenario, but with kids in the picture, I have been forced to (happy to do it) do what is best for them even though it annihilated a relationship hanging by a thread.

What do you mean by worst case scenario?

[MobyCloud]

What do you mean by worst case scenario?

A lifetime of repeated acts of violence and rage, but cannot and will not subject my kids to that.
Sometimes, as we are aware, these situations can escalate to some pretty horrific outcomes.
In a way, it's physical and mental self-sacrifice for another, albeit no amount of taking from others will fill the void she feels.

[mitten]

Yeah, that's so true.  Well I just want to say I admire you understanding her flaws and illness and still choosing to love her.  The saying "love is an action not a feeling" resonates me with me in my own marriage.  Sometimes the things they do is so hurtful and frustrating. 

[MobyCloud]

Yeah, that's so true.  Well I just want to say I admire you understanding her flaws and illness and still choosing to love her.  The saying "love is an action not a feeling" resonates me with me in my own marriage.  Sometimes the things they do is so hurtful and frustrating.  

Thanks for your kind words. I still struggle with the fact her inability to hold herself accountable makes her paint me black and say “I” was the toxic one or “we were toxic together.” It just isn’t true. She was physically violent, and I cannot reconcile how someone can hit someone they love or threaten to leave all the time, etc. She cannot admit to herself that what I’m doing is what is best for our kids to prevent them from continuing the cycle she’s subjected them to. I am not sure she can make progress in any potential therapy or self work without acknowledging what she’s done. For instance, I gave her an ultimatum — my heart was in the right place but my mind delivered the message the wrong way. Her lack of security or fear of abandonment made her abandon me first, taking the kids, out of fear. She then proceeded to make up stories about all sorts of false abuse. Was my ultimatum delivered harshly? Yes. But it doesn’t change the fact our relationship suffered more from her abuse (all kinds) than anything I did at wit’s end. Her friend said she needs to hear a sincere apology. I am not sure what I need to apologize for. I looked through our entire relationship history and saw myself as a loving and supportive husband. I had started to question that due to her gaslighting and abuse. But I know I deserve better. Anyways, if she can make me think poorly about myself, she can clearly make herself believe those lies, too. I don’t see how she can make progress unless she sits in truth. I’m going to give it two years to work on myself before moving on. I still hold out hope she sees the severity of the situation, accepts she more is than 50% “responsible” and work to make amends for the good of our family. That should give her time to make decent progress. The kicker, again, is I can’t discuss any of this with her or even gauge if she is interested in it. It’s like a 0.01% chance. My lawyer and my therapist are both telling me to just cut bait. My lawyer doesn’t want to represent me a third time. We called off the divorce three years ago because she promised to get a true diagnosis and go to therapy. She had such a fear of facing herself in the mirror she would rather ruin our relationship. Her friend also told me she “doesn’t believe in the institution of marriage anymore.” But…she never really showed up (because she didn’t love herself). Anytime she would be held accountable she would react with rage or withhold herself in an attempt to punish me or push me to apologize for things I didn’t do. How is that giving a marriage a fair shot? How is that doing your part? It is hard some days to think of this stuff. This kind of thinking and these kind of comments just continue to show me that I made the right call, and that she isn’t being honest with herself. She doesn’t realize the institution of marriage, my commitment to her and my love of her is why we tried a second time. It’s like saying you don’t trust buildings after you detonate one with C4.

[Cat Familiar]

The hardest thing for those of us involved with pwBPD is to realize that they don’t have BPD, they are BPD. By that I mean, BPD is the lens through which they see the world. Perhaps that helps in understanding why they are unable to self reflect accurately and have no desire to be accountable when asked to do so.

In addition, merely reflecting upon their own behavior can be so utterly painful, since they have so much self loathing and shame, that they cannot hold themselves to task to do so.

It’s such a bridge too far that *normal people* just cannot grasp the intensity of their inner pain when asked to reflect upon their actions. Thus, they project upon others, rage, attack, self harm, and all the other undesirable BPD behaviors that we all are familiar with.

[MobyCloud]

In addition, merely reflecting upon their own behavior can be so utterly painful, since they have so much self loathing and shame, that they cannot hold themselves to task to do so.

This is exactly why I continue to try to show love and keep compassion for her. So she knows if she ever walks that path I will never hate her or feel as bad about her as she may feel about her self. And why I tried to “love her through it.” I have had to do what was best for our kids, and it gives her a platform to say I am doing it for control, or to hurt her, this that or the other. She cannot understand or admit to herself that the current situation IS best for our kids because she is not healthy. So I have to have some insidious reason for taking these actions (which I don’t…)

I pray for her every morning and every night. Religious experience is new to me, but I’ve found peace starting and ending my day wishing the best for her and her journey. It helps keep negative feelings regarding her away, even though there is a lot of issues that would make most people to “go there.” I continue to stick up to her to some of my friends who get snippy about her and my entire extended family. I’ve even rejected money from family in this hard time because of some of the conditions or some of their negative input. She didn’t choose her upbringing and I cut her a lot of slack there, but it becomes harder each day she doesn’t help herself. All of the above is why it rocks me to my core when she blamed me, claims I was abusive, etc. I honestly don’t know if she “believes it” or if she is consciously lying/manipulating.

My gut tells me (I) since I told her I would leave with the kids she (II) abandoned me first, and because (III) she knows she was abusive and that would be my reason for leaving, she (IV) claimed I abused her to (V) control the narrative as much as she can and (VI) solicit support, sympathy, “backup” from her friends and family to (VII) add protection to her false sense of self by building (VIII) enough touch points to avoid truth and live in her false world she created. Strikes me as a really broken person who would go through all of that to avoid the truth and lose her husband and kids in the process instead of looking at herself in the mirror until she knows and loves who she is, and realizes we’ve been there for her the entire time.

I wish one of those times she told me “I don’t know why anyone would love me,” that my only response was to pull her close and tell her “it doesn’t matter if you don’t know why, the fact is I do, our kids do, and we would love to help you understand that if you’ll let us” instead of just thinking it was a thing she was saying. I didn’t have the perspective of her condition then, and I really wish I did.

[MobyCloud]

My gut tells me (I) since I told her I would leave with the kids she (II) abandoned me first, and because (III) she knows she was abusive and that would be my reason for leaving, she (IV) claimed I abused her to (V) control the narrative as much as she can and (VI) solicit support, sympathy, “backup” from her friends and family to (VII) add protection to her false sense of self by building (VIII) enough touch points to avoid truth and live in her false world she created.

But to be fair, my therapist's point of view is that if she did the above, it would not have been a calculated thought process like I proposed. That kind of makes her sound psychotic, which I did not intend to make her out to be. What they think is actually going on is the emotionally wounded inner-child was never let go of, made peace with or understood their family of origin childhood trauma. So after idealization phase, she became triggered and this led to devaluation. This led her false-self (unconscious, maladaptive coping mechanism from her childhood) come up and "protect her" (again, unconscious vs. as calculated as I wrote it above). There may be a degree of "disassociation," but it's been referred to as magical thinking compounded by intense emotions. So she felt a lot of pain, but couldn't understand why because she lacks understanding of her past (which if she had, she would not act so dysregulated), so the pain is projected out and leads to the splitting. I made it sound like the splitting was a conscious decision, and I've been steered away from that thinking which helps me understand it is a true underlying issue. Trying to think about it too much from my perspective makes the actions seem much more nefarious than they are, wherein reality she is (a) hurt; (b) doesn't understand why; (c) doesn't know how to effectively cope with the feeling and the lack of understanding; (d) this leads to the maladaptive coping mechanisms, etc.

[Cat Familiar]

It doesn’t help to overthink it from a *normal person’s* perspective. That’s still not accepting the fact that people with BPD are wired differently on an emotional level.

Even with years of therapy, which few pwBPD are willing to engage in, there are so many remedial issues to resolve about emotional development which didn’t occur in during the appropriately formative ages.

[MobyCloud]

Sharing for anyone who has said this reminds them of their situation:

When I miss her / am ruminating, I remind myself she was physically and verbally abusive to me and never apologized or showed an ounce of remorse. This abuse included throwing things at me, hitting me and biting me, at times putting our children in danger (punching my face while driving a car). Still to this day she does not admit to it nor has she apologized for it.

When I feel guilty for finally pulling the plug, I remind myself that yes, a broken family unit is not ideal for children but research shows it is a better outcome than witnessing family violence growing up.

When I feel guilty for letting it all go, I remind myself that every counselor I could called or emailed told me couples therapy is actually not recommended with an abusive wife, and that the abuser should get therapy on their own first. And I begged her and she promised to get therapy throughout and never followed through. She proceeded to gas light me, tell me I am a narcissist and never worked on herself.

I remind myself that I did everything that I could to support her until it became detrimental to the kids.

I remind myself she never showed one true ounce of remorse or sorrow for her actions.

I remind myself how she externalizes her shame and guilt and blames me every time.

I remind myself that life is too short, and stress kills, that I lost weight due to stress and depression to the point when I reunited with friends the past few months they have all been worried about my well-being.

I remind myself of the unforgivable things she would yell at me about and how she would refer to me in front of our kids and our neighbors and strangers.

I remind myself of all the drama and roller coaster aspects and how it wore me down.

I remind myself of her unfaithfulness while we were working to reconcile last time.

I remind myself that it was all worth it because I know my children and without going through this hell I would have never had them.

I remind myself of the authentic self of hers that shown through every now and then, and that I was trying to help that person reassume conscious  control of my STBXW.

I remind myself that even through all of this, she isn’t making moves to fix things, and that she will likely never will. This is where her lack of long-term view really bothers me. One day our kids will ask and wonder why mom isn't around or why mom and I aren't together...She is claiming to her friends and family all sorts of lies and not taking responsibility for her actions, but will she really think she can do the same to our kids? I have kept every single legal item related to the last divorce and this divorce so they can have the true story when they are an appropriate age. I will never bad mouth their mother, but I am keeping the receipts. She can lie to her friends and family all she wants, but our kids deserve to know the truth that I took them out of an abusive and violent situation. So they will know one day -- why do all the mental gymnastics today instead of taking ownership and working towards self improvement and eventual reconciliation? I think the obvious answer is short-sightedness and lack of love for others. She is definitely in "victim" mode, reaching out to old high school and college friends for validation, etc...we all know how that search for external validation goes.

**I woke up really emotionally distraught this morning. I've been able to actually have dreams since we’ve separated. I think it was too hard to sleep peacefully next to someone I didn’t feel safe around, I don’t know. But lately the dreams have been really surreal and mostly about our reconciliation last time around. There is one specifically that keeps popping up which was the first time she opened the door to her apartment when we saw each other in person the first time. My logical self is in one place, but my emotional self is somewhere completely different.**

[MobyCloud]

*Update* I’m no longer a lost puppy dog.  My purpose in life right now is being a great dad to my two kids, a great friend to everyone who is back in my life and a kickass coworker helping two founders build a massive SaaS company in the energy space (bless my new job I’m so thankful). I’ve given too much of myself to one person who never appreciated or accepted it. I’m not upset by it but I learned a lot. All I can do is move forward. I’ve been working out, listening to/playing music and feel more and more like “myself” every day. I love myself and believe in myself again. I will never let myself be treated that way again. My life has become a drama free zone and I invited that kind of disrespect when I worked with her every time a red flag showed up. I have been buzzing with energy for about a week straight and it’s mind boggling. I feel like a completely different person and literally don’t give a sh*t about anything unless it truly means something or is important. Thank you to everyone here!

[CryingGame]

 

Wow! Just read your whole thread ... I'm new here and learning a lot, as I try to reconcile my mother's behavior toward me most of my life.

I am in a happy successful marriage of almost 18yrs now, but in the past I had a really bad one with my child's father that included some violence. After that I learned about love addiction and was advised to read the book Women Who Love Too Much twice! That is a horrible problem to have, the obsession and the illness of it. Worked hard at healing that in a 12-step program, my picker was broken and I am so happy to say I broke my patterns and picked a decent human being to spend my life with, without drama.

It's almost like you went through a withdrawal of the love/hope/marriage and then popped out to say WAIT, it's My Kids and My Self that I'm in love with! That I'm devoted to. All your work will pay off because your children will benefit greatly from your recovery. AND you are protecting them from the insanity of a violent mother.

I see that the relationship with my mum was rigged ... and once again she disposed of me. The loving connection, the sacred relationship, the closeness at ages 60 and 80, mean nothing to her when her disease is activated in such a way that she deletes me. But this time I don't have a fantasy of reconciliation. I am grieving and healing and sometimes it's so painful and awful. But I read others' posts and feel better, it helps me understand.

I believe the good things you wrote and experienced with the mother of your children and I believe the bad. The bad are way too dangerous for the children and your soul. It's a bit like God is doing for me what I couldn't do for myself---the restraining order and no contact thing.

[MobyCloud]

As an update…

She reached out on a burner number after 6 months against a court order.
She gave enough for us to identify it was her.
I won’t use it for her to end up in jail.
I was making progress and I feel like I was back at square one the first day she reached out.
Day 2 of communication I lost my PLEASE READ with her and while it was cathartic, it was over the top and mean.
Day 3 I tried to lead by example and apologize for my part in some of our issues, which she didn’t react well to at all.
Over the past 3 days I’ve apologized for things I did, but she hasn’t accepted any accountability or responsibility.
Kind of just the same old PLEASE READ.
Like…if a doctor told you that you had a tumor in your head, and they got it out, and you could keep living a pain free life, would you want to put it back in there?

All I want to know is … why did she reach out? It makes no sense. I’ve done most of the talking and she just…for some reason decided to risk going to jail for… some? No reason?

So I’m back here.