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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Daughter is going through sadness and numbness and I'm not sure how to help  (Read 1155 times)
Manic Miner
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« on: July 16, 2022, 07:09:19 AM »

My D is 12 with special needs. Her diagnose is a bit complicated one due to premature birth, but intellectually, lets just say she has some autistic traits and delayed learning. She's otherwise smart and endlessly happy, joyful girl.

Or she was until W and I separated almost 3 weeks ago. It hit her hard. I didn't think it would due to her disabilities, but it did.
Seeing her suffering again after everything she's been through when she was a baby (barely survived and was in NICU for 3 months) breaks my heart and beyond. Knowing it's mostly because of my W's illness and me not having myself to cope with it, just makes me want to jump out of my skin.

It's very hard for her to understand what's happening and she's always asking me why mom is not home with us (when she's with me) and why does she live in a different home (her parents house). I jokingly say - well, you have two homes now, you're not a boring girl with one home, you can exchange two however you like.

Yesterday W and I got together on a coffee and pancakes and my D was in the middle, holding hands of both, like she used to, even though it was a disaster. My W was full of resentment, entitlement and questions as soon as the talk started between us. Was completely insolent even though she tried to seem nice.

What a deluded mind she has - she is literally offering me nothing but wants to see me wanting her to return to our/my home. Is she funny and easygoing now? No. Is she kind to me? Nope. Is she a good company? Interesting, charming, sexy, uplifting, anything now? Nnnnope. So what the hell does she hope for? Me returning to misery, entitlement and drama? Sarcasm? The only thing that is keeping me grounded is my daughter.

At much happier times, wherever W and I kissed and our daughter saw or heard that, she was smiling from ear to ear. I won't ever forget that smile. I deeply believe part of the reason for having her survive and overcome all of what she's been through was because of our endless love for her and us having much happier and loving times together. She always felt that.

There are two things that I worry:

1. Her own mental health. Knowing she has a high disposition to inherit BPD traits, combined with her disabilities, she's a pre-teen, concerns me. I was bad with my own nerves and there were times lately I yelled on my D after repeating something for zillionth of time and I feel awful now and full of guilt. Maybe I'm pouring more salt to the wound? I should be the stable one.

2. My W's ability to actually be with our D and spend quality time unsupervised. While she is a good mother overall and my D loves her very much - some stuff my W can do way better than I can, there were many occasions where I patched holes or where she said she was there for her, even though I know she was 40% of what she claimed to be. I have no doubt that she cares for her. But as we know, BPD's claims and wishes and reality can be two different things. This is my worry only, not a fact, I can be wrong.

So I was thinking, maybe I should bite the bullet, put my personality, hopes and fears in a closet and patch this up with my W? Yes, for the sake of my daughter. Maybe something good could happen after all, with the tools I learned and validation? But maybe it will do more harm than good. Maybe my wife is beyond repair with her entitlement and submission. Ambivalence is killing me. I don't know what to do actually and all of my darn therapists are on extended vacations.
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2022, 07:35:26 AM »

I jokingly say - well, you have two homes now, you're not a boring girl with one home, you can exchange two however you like.

That sounds invalidating. Your D is indeed sad- it's understandable. Kids don't understand all the aspect of divorce and so it's something they will feel emotional about.

I understand you, yourself, feel all kinds of things right now too. One of them being guilt, which might be why you make light of her discomfort over having two homes.

Yes, there's one lady who I think is worth sucking up all your feelings right now and being there for her, and it's not your wife.

I don't suggest going back to your wife only for the reason it might smooth over these feelings for your D. How about instead- give your D the space to feel what she feels and be a supportive, validating, parent for her.

To do this, you may need some assistance managing your own emotions. You can then role model this for her.

If your wife is disordered with you, she's disordered with everyone, including your D. Being separated is a challenge, but so is living together in disorder. Neither choice is an easy one but each person chooses the one that works best for them. The best way to take care of, and be emotionally present for your D is to take care of you.

Kids on the spectrum are especially sensitive to changes in routine. This is a change for her but sometimes, changes happen. Your job as a parent is to help her cope and help her learn to cope. Some things will help- having some similar things in each place. It's not a large expense to have the same sheets and blankets on her bed, same towels, and some duplicate toys or other favorite things. A calendar on the wall to show what days she's with you, what days she's with her mom. Hopefully you can get her mother on board with these.

I think counseling is important for any child who is experiencing parents divorcing.

And it's hard to know whether or not she will have BPD.  Emotional immaturity is part of BPD, so some child behaviors may look like BPD but are normal for a child. I'd let the therapist take the lead on what is normal and what may be concerning.



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Manic Miner
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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2022, 12:49:09 PM »

That sounds invalidating. Your D is indeed sad- it's understandable. Kids don't understand all the aspect of divorce and so it's something they will feel emotional about.
I understand you, yourself, feel all kinds of things right now too. One of them being guilt, which might be why you make light of her discomfort over having two homes.

You have a point, I will make sure to be more clear in the future. It's just that her way of understanding is generally different. Not only because of age, it's a combination of autism & adhd traits. She's not under any particular category, but shares traits from several. The older she is the better she understands. She can get upset if we are upset and you cannot explain to her easily what's going on. So I tried my best to ease the burden from her by being easy going and cheerful. Especially since my W is a teacher and she can get stubborn with her ways of learning, sometimes going too far unnecessary. Granted, this could be much bigger thing for her than I thought.

Excerpt
Yes, there's one lady who I think is worth sucking up all your feelings right now and being there for her, and it's not your wife.

I don't suggest going back to your wife only for the reason it might smooth over these feelings for your D. How about instead- give your D the space to feel what she feels and be a supportive, validating, parent for her.

To do this, you may need some assistance managing your own emotions. You can then role model this for her.

If your wife is disordered with you, she's disordered with everyone, including your D. Being separated is a challenge, but so is living together in disorder. Neither choice is an easy one but each person chooses the one that works best for them. The best way to take care of, and be emotionally present for your D is to take care of you.

Thank you. This meant a lot and was reality check too.

Excerpt
Kids on the spectrum are especially sensitive to changes in routine. This is a change for her but sometimes, changes happen. Your job as a parent is to help her cope and help her learn to cope. Some things will help- having some similar things in each place. It's not a large expense to have the same sheets and blankets on her bed, same towels, and some duplicate toys or other favorite things. A calendar on the wall to show what days she's with you, what days she's with her mom. Hopefully you can get her mother on board with these.

Absolutely. She is a child of routines. Some routines she likes so much that she can go into tantrum mode if something she likes very much is changed or unavailable (one of autism traits). You need tons of patience to explain her then, but as she gets older it's much better and is more understandable. We also vary several routines and add new so she can get used to new things and experiences. She loves new stuff too. I will make sure some of the toys she likes here will be there as well.

My W told me she somewhat lost connection and routines with D since they are at her grandparents place, and my D considers her grandparents "the bosses" there. She has a point, I will talk to D and we will both reach counseling for advice.

My D is with me now and she's in a very good mood, like before. So I'm happy too.
As for my W, she's again in that "sorry mode" - oh why did we separate, I'm so sad when we fight, why are you sometimes mean to me?, I thought our relationship would last forever etc. I'm trying cautiously to steer her back to a neutral ground and explain that world isn't just black or white. When she is in this mode, I kind of hope something can be changed for the better. At least she can be reasoned with, isn't angry now and seems honest with explaining how she really feels. She's a high-functioning BPD after all.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 12:59:56 PM by Manic Miner » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2022, 06:53:37 AM »

Yes, your D has gone through a lot of changes recently and surely that's a lot for her. It would make sense that some of her behaviors would be increased at this time and she'd need support- I think the counseling route is a good idea.

I also think the times where the pwBPD appears more stable and understanding are hard because it does give you hope. I am not saying there isn't hope but I think change takes time.

Motivation plays a part in in everyone's behavior. A pw high functioning BPD is motivated to hold it together in motivating situations- such as work, social situations. We all are, in a way- we are on our best behavior at work because we value our jobs.

If she's motivated to get back together with you, and the two of you go back to what you were quickly- then that removes the motivation. It's not that you hold this out like a carrot on a stick, but to think about what you do want if you get back together. If you go back to the same thing quickly, without either of you doing the work to make changes- you will get the same thing you had. If you want something different- then that is something to work on. If she's truly motivated, and high functioning, then perhaps counseling might be a route for the two of you to take.
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Manic Miner
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2022, 10:03:50 AM »

I also think the times where the pwBPD appears more stable and understanding are hard because it does give you hope. I am not saying there isn't hope but I think change takes time.  

Completely true. The worse it gets, the more I feel happy when I see even tiny amount of stability and hope. Anything that can be worked on. But alas, those spots change depending on her mood and emotions in a matter of hours.

Excerpt
Motivation plays a part in in everyone's behavior. A pw high functioning BPD is motivated to hold it together in motivating situations- such as work, social situations. We all are, in a way- we are on our best behavior at work because we value our jobs.

She's great at her job, students love her and has tons of patience for all ages. HF-BPD has been a blessing and a curse for me. Of course it's good that someone is high functioning, can maintain and excel at jobs and some other responsibilities. But it's a curse that is still a disability, a major one and is almost completely hidden from herself, others, friends, some family, even therapists.

The only people that I know that saw that she's not entirely sane is my ex friend (with whom I clashed over my W after he went bonkers with her, claiming she was crazy and mean person - I wish I could say I was sorry) and my NPD father.

Excerpt
If she's motivated to get back together with you, and the two of you go back to what you were quickly- then that removes the motivation. It's not that you hold this out like a carrot on a stick, but to think about what you do want if you get back together. If you go back to the same thing quickly, without either of you doing the work to make changes- you will get the same thing you had. .

That's exactly what happens. She's motivated. To move in again under her conditions. Me solely accepting the blame and going throughout the whole roller-coaster again. Seen that, done that. Happened before, nothing changed for the good.

As soon as I utter anything about her responsibility, even in the most calming manner, her panic mode starts and she shuts down, interrupting me, getting resentful and wanting to hang up the phone or cut the conversation.

Excerpt
If she's truly motivated, and high functioning, then perhaps counseling might be a route for the two of you to take.  

That was my hope also. I was more than saddened to notice that this separation didn't evoke any remorse or normal emotions on her side, something, anything to be worked on. Actually, it triggered abandonment even worse.

She's sad, but full of entitlement and all kind of projections. Wants to go back to live together, being resentful and hurt. Seems even jealous that I'm doing good, abandoning her again. Just today she cried over the phone how I'm totally fine, don't need her and I'm even better alone.

And what do I say there? Yes babe, I need you here to make more drama, throwing a tantrum if I say the wrong word, wrong kind of pitch of my voice or look of my face. Threatening me with divorce every time you feel hurt and go to your parents house with our D when your emotions burst?

I'm being ironic here, but what do I really say on that? She's completely delusional over her illness and how there's a cause and effect on everything. My space maneuver is getting limited. I cannot tell her something I don't believe in.

Would I want her to return with our D and us try to be a happy nuclear family again? Of course. Absolutely. But under certain conditions that would involve both parties to change and work on the issues. Wherever I say that, I get interrupted and blame is steered on me. Seems she'd rather divorce than accept any issue on her own. And I will not accept to be the main and only villain in this relationship. I tried that already and it never did good long term.
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Brooklyn1974
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2022, 10:24:22 AM »

Excerpt
Would I want her to return with our D and us try to be a happy nuclear family again? Of course. Absolutely. But under certain conditions that would involve both parties to change and work on the issues. Wherever I say that, I get interrupted and blame is steered on me. Seems she'd rather divorce than accept any issue on her own. And I will not accept to be the main and only villain in this relationship. I tried that already and it never did good long term.
Posted on: July 19, 2022, 06:53:37 AMPosted by: Notwendy

What you don't understand is that your wife is not capable of doing that right now.  You need to stop telling her what she should or should not do or give her conditions.  She is your wife, not your daughter.  You are not her father or counselor.  You have two different posts going on so I did post in the other but will continue to reply in this one.  I can see that expected behavior from a BPD if you say 'I will love you and accept you but only if you do x,y,z'.  

Relationships are not a competition.  Please truly read up on BPD.  Get a firm grasp of what it is and when being confronted always think 3 steps ahead.  Your daughter is truly going through hell.  Not only about this but she's seen you two fight probably many times and her anxiety and insecurity is probably going through the roof.  From what you mentioned she is going to try to be the parent of you both to 'fix you both to be back together'.  This is wrong.  This has become a triangle and nothing good can come out of it.  You need to keep any discussions between yourself and your wife out of your daughter's ears.  When your daughter comes to you and says she is sad, respond the same way with your wife.  'I understand, I am sad too'.  Do not mix the word 'love' when your wife is being difficult.  Example: Your daughter says:  Mom said this about your or is doing this.  Don't respond negativity about your wife to her but also don't say 'Well mom does loves you'.  Respond with 'I can understand that you're upset'.  When going through this with my daughter who was 12, and she would ask me why is mom doing this, I would never say 'But mom still does love you..'  It would give my daughter the meaning of bad behavior and love can mix.  I would tell her that 'Mom is not thinking clearly right now'.  Please remember any argument or fight that you two have in front of your daughter, your daughter loses another little bit of her childhood.  Something she can never get back.

Let your daughter know how much you love her, not just with words but with hugs and affection.  Your daughter has heard enough words (and usually not kind ones between you and your wife), physical affection would help a lot.  
« Last Edit: July 20, 2022, 10:37:58 AM by Brooklyn1974 » Logged
livednlearned
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2022, 01:20:51 PM »

It's very hard for her to understand what's happening and she's always asking me why mom is not home with us (when she's with me) and why does she live in a different home (her parents house).

Do you think maybe this is part of her confusion:

Yesterday W and I got together on a coffee and pancakes and my D was in the middle, holding hands of both, like she used to, even though it was a disaster.

My son is also ASD + ADHD and sometimes I think as parents we overthink the complications of their special needs.

Sometimes it's just us being blockheaded.

You and your wife are living apart but having breakfast together like things are normal. Your wife may even be asking D12 why there are two homes (bad boundaries).

A neurotypical kid or even adult might wonder the same thing D12 is wondering. "Why live apart if you can have breakfast together?"

When D12 asks you a question, take a beat and try to check in with how you feel -- then set that aside. That part is you. That part is for sharing here or with a therapist or friend or someone you trust.

Then try to figure out where D12 is coming from, what she feels. Be curious and listen, even if the answer is painful for you. This is painful stuff. Feeling pain is normal for what you're all experiencing in this separation. Sharing pain with her dad will help D12 feel less alone in it. Feeling isolation in the face of great pain is an amplifier that we as parents can mitigate simply by acknowledging it is a feeling you share, and others share.

It helps to practice validating questions (the book You Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms has a chapter on this, and there's a post on this site somewhere you can search), or, if you can't think of anything, repeat back a version of her question. "You want to better understand why mom and dad don't live together."

Having a BPD person in your life means we have to become the emotional leader. One way to do that is to focus on raising an emotionally resilient child. In many ways this a more tangible way to see the specific skills take root and flower.

"Having two homes isn't easy for you. Want to share what it's like for you? I really want to hear."

Kids that age, even (especially?) with special needs, can be surprisingly matter of fact about things. Sorting out why mom and dad have two homes is something that will take them the rest of their lives to make sense of, so no need to figure that out for them. It's better to help them lighten the load of how they're feeling so they can move a little more easily through the rest of the day.

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Breathe.
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2022, 02:12:27 PM »

I've heard it commented that some kids from split families have discovered that the kids get twice as many holidays, one set from the dad's side and another set from the mom's side.

Look on the bright side, whenever possible.
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2022, 05:18:26 AM »

You need to stop telling her what she should or should not do or give her conditions.  She is your wife, not your daughter.  You are not her father or counselor.  

She left our home with D, by her own will - with me telling her to rethink, chill and get us some counseling. Just 24h later she started checking whether I would beg her to come back. I didn't. I told her we have problems as a couple and should seek a therapist. She was getting more frustrated.

Fast forward today, after 3 more weeks, she's sad, hurt, frustrated, angry, even mad after talking with me, waving with imaginary divorce papers every time. At the same time telling me that "times are tough, it would be best if we get back together". But under many conditions that I should meet, accepting that I'm solely to blame for tearing up my family and making my daughter lose her first home.

So while I understand what you're saying I'm not her father and relationship isn't a competition - what should I do here?
If I don't offer any condition or just say "so be it, please come back", I will have her going back to our/my home with the same kind of hurt, same kind of frustrations. She won't suddenly say "oh we made it! It will be better from now as we both will take care." I would probably be under surveillance, checking how good husband I am by her own measurements.

Me trying to offer "conditions" on her return is nothing more but trying to have a tiny bulb lit that not all of it is my fault and shouldn't expect me to be submissive. Instead, we should head to the counseling and try sort our major problems there, doing it step by step. And sadly, I already know that D doesn't mean much if her emotions are stirred and she's in panic mode.

As for our D listening us arguing, yes. Though it used to be worse in the past. Now I try my best to keep our "talk" out of her ears or when she's away. If anything good came out of our separation was that D is not listening to us - I hope W is doing well with her, as well.

Excerpt
Let your daughter know how much you love her, not just with words but with hugs and affection.  Your daughter has heard enough words (and usually not kind ones between you and your wife), physical affection would help a lot.  

Luckily, we both do it daily. Both W and I hug her and show all kinds of affection. Having a baby of only 610 grams at birth, we learned the hard way that there's no such thing as too much affection for baby or a child. So up to this day, our D has seen lots of it, every single day. I don't doubt my W at all on that.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 05:27:23 AM by Manic Miner » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2022, 06:04:01 AM »


So while I understand what you're saying I'm not her father and relationship isn't a competition - what should I do here?
If I don't offer any condition or just say "so be it, please come back", I will have her going back to our/my home with the same kind of hurt, same kind of frustrations. She won't suddenly say "oh we made it! It will be better from now as we both will take care." I would probably be under surveillance, checking how good husband I am by her own measurements.

Me trying to offer "conditions" on her return is nothing more but trying to have a tiny bulb lit that not all of it is my fault and shouldn't expect me to be submissive. Instead, we should head to the counseling and try sort our major problems there, doing it step by step. And sadly, I already know that D doesn't mean much if her emotions are stirred and she's in panic mode.



Maybe it helps to think of this in terms of boundaries. Boundaries are about us, not anyone else. Boundaries are based on our own values. We can't control another person but our boundaries form the basis for how we respond to when our boundaries are crossed or violated in some way.

Some responses to boundary violations are natural consequences. Natural consequences are good "teachers". While we would not want someone to experience dangerous ones ( if we can help it) - if we allow them to experience natural consequences, they may learn from them better than if we intervened.

One example- a child forgets their homework. Consequence- they get a bad grade. They learn that if they don't bring their homework, they get a bad grade. If the parent intervenes and brings the homework to school for them, they don't learn this.

Another one- a friend drinks too much at a party. The natural consequence of driving home is possible injury to them or someone else- we would then intervene and drive them. Maybe they won't learn the lesson but the stakes are too high to let them learn this way.

Boundaries are best stated as beginning with "I", not "you".

Looking at the circumstance with your wife. She's the one who left. That's on her.

I don't want return to the same kind of hurt, same kind of frustrations in the home.

That is your boundary right here.

This part: Me trying to offer "conditions" on her return is nothing more but trying to have a tiny bulb lit that not all of it is my fault and shouldn't expect me to be submissive.


This is an expectation that she realizes you are not to blame for all of this. You can't control how she thinks. It's possible that she doesn't realize this, ever. Your boundary is if you want to live with someone who thinks everything is your fault or not.

You don't know if this is possible but the next step - your suggestion for counseling- is a boundary for you as well- "we will not move back together unless we work with a counselor to learn how to manage our conflicts better". Time will tell if this helps or not.

Stated in summary: "I understand you would like to move back in together ( that is validation of her feelings ) however, I don't want to return to the same kind of hurts and frustrations between us. Before this can happen, I wish for us to get some counseling together on how to better manage these"

That is a boundary because it reflects your values and the actions you wish to take. It's then up to her to decide her response.
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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2022, 06:41:08 AM »

@Notwendy thanks on your boundary examples and tremendous help. It really means a lot to me in the current situation where I tend to shift focus, with many things going on in my mind.

Above else, that's a great summary and I have actually written it on paper for me.
I guess I also need to accept that the way she behaves and thinks, whether we will reach some agreement on this are beyond my control. The best I can do is radically accept something the way it is and make further adjustments according to my own boundaries.
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2022, 08:11:26 AM »

As the days go by, my W seems more distant and hurt. My D is paying the price because seeing her means communicating with W on good terms.

And my W is hoping for something without asking, always testing waters to see if I will mind read. And since I don't or cannot, she goes into "I knew it" phase, rinse and repeat.

She started being tremendously selfish, does not show any kindness, except in fair texting - if she's in the mood. This affects me seeing my D, as she tries to control our relationship more. It's not what is best for D, but what W feels it's right.

Just days ago, D was with me for 3 days (2 nights). Barely made it. My W was texting me 3-4x a day - she needs her mother, oh, does she miss me? Three days is too much etc. Then she called to hear her on the phone. Normally, our D was sad that she's not home with us. That doesn't mean she needs to be with her right away. I was trying to calm W gently, described what D and I did - making pancakes, having fun, going to a local gig, hear some music. My W skipped all of that and focused on herself, being the mother. I felt she was almost jealous and even more hurt that father was having a quality time with his daughter.

Meanwhile, she booked a flight to travel to Barcelona for 4 days on her own, to "cool off". I wonder where is that precious motherhood bonding now? But yeah, BPD and logic are two different terms. In the middle of crisis she's flying off and skipping an appointment that we had for counseling. Fair enough, maybe she returns a bit better and finally I will have time to talk with therapist alone. But anyhow, she was suggesting me for D to remain at her parents for 4 days. I refused. We'll see how it goes.
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2022, 09:41:25 AM »

I think your daughter has good reason to feel sad. I think the best thing you can do is be supportive of her, validate her feelings. She's allowed to feel sad.

It's important to watch for signs of depression but without those, being sad is a normal feeling. She needs to know she is loved. She needs to process the changes in her world too.

You are right, feeling sad doesn't mean she needs to be with mother, it doesn't mean she needs to be "fixed" or someone has to do something to stop her sadness. That would mean that you and her mother live in harmony. You know that harmony isn't possible. Even if you were back together, your D would be exposed to the dynamics.

I was sad as a teen too. My parents didn't separate. I still have a mother with BPD. There are still BPD dynamics. I feel sad about that sometimes too.

What mitigated this was the connection with my father. Truthfully, he was mostly taken up with BPD mother's issues. I don't know if he was aware of my feelings. We couldn't talk about her much. But he was the more emotionally stable one. Not much was known about BPD at the time. You are ahead of the game with this as you have information.

"Going numb" is a defense we learn as children in order to cope with these kinds of situations. Part of co-dependency and CODA work has been to feel allowed to feel our feelings and some of these feelings are hard- sadness, anger. But the goal is to feel them and learn how to manage them, not ignore them. Let your D learn that it's OK to feel what she feels and that you are there to love and support her.

BPD mother will do what she does.

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ForeverDad
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Gender: Male
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18238


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2022, 05:23:18 PM »

Meanwhile, she booked a flight to travel to Barcelona for 4 days on her own, to "cool off"... But anyhow, she was suggesting me for D to remain at her parents for 4 days. I refused.

You were correct to refuse. Your position should be that if mother is not available to parent, then you as father will step in as the other parent.  There is a phrase for this — ROFR — Right of First Refusal.  Likely this is a paragraph in your parenting order.  If not, then you'll have to give attention to this.  She wants her family or relatives to fill in for her.  That's not acceptable.  Depending on the parenting order, the perspective of the family court in your area and other parenting aspects you may have to bend a little but never let your parental status be weakened.
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