Help Navigating this Journey

[Pook075]

Hello everyone, and thanks for reading.  My situation is quite unique since my daughter was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder approximately 6 years ago.  We knew something was different about her from childhood and my wife/I fought so hard to get my kid the proper mental health help.  It was even harder because the rest of the family couldn't see it, they didn't know what we were going through at home.  My wife eventually disassociated from my daughter so I had to be the tough parent, the one who wouldn't walk on eggshells.  And my kid hated me for a very long time, told people I was the devil, but it all worked out in the end.  My daughter and I are now best friends and share everything. 

She tells me that through all that chaos, all the arguing, that what she needed the most was her daddy to love her unconditionally.

Through this experience, , my wife was diagnosed with clinical depression. Then came the death of my parents (caring for my dad at home 24/7 in 2020 & 2021) before and during COVID.  And about 4 months ago, my wife hit an all-time low.  We've been married for 24 years, mostly good, and she always felt down for a day or two and then bounced right back.  This time was different though and she grew very distant from me, very detached.  The final month she was at home, she barely spoke to me.  And it crushed me, I felt her giving up and I had no idea why.  Plus, my brother was dying of cancer around the exact same time...dying the same way my dad did the previous two years.  So I was very lousy support that final month.

Nine weeks ago, my wife left me and said that she's been miserable for the entire 24 years.  She brought up things that happened 20+ years ago as justification for leaving, and I was completely puzzled.  I told my 2nd daughter, this is no big deal, we'll work this out quickly.  But we didn't.  And as I looked back at our 24 years, it suddenly dawned on me, "Oh my gosh, this isn't depression."

I go to church with our family doctor and shared my concerns about three weeks ago.  Doc agreed that there was something else going on, and asked me to make an appointment.  This is the same doctor that initially diagnosed my daughter, so she knows our family history.  When I finally talked to the doc in office yesterday, she said that this is classic Borderline Personality Disorder and it has been there this entire time.

Currently my wife says she's very happy.  She cares for a disabled young adult and she's always been called for special needs individuals.  In fact, she's worked in those group homes or as a nurse assistant her whole life, which is why I don't think I've ever thought she could have what my daughter has.  My kid was a monster most of the time, my wife's like an angel, the absolute love of my life.  I just couldn't see it until it was so plainly obvious. 

Here's where I struggle:

1. None of my family (except my daughter) believe me that this is mental health.  They see my wife happy; yet they don't see her cry at night or suffer.  They have no idea what she's facing within her own mind.  My wife also refuses seeing our pastor, a therapist, or a doctor...because she's happy.  So I'm mostly cut off from her family and my remaining friends/family do not respond appropriately; they tell me I don't deserve this, etc.

2. Our doctor is extremely worried because she thinks my wife's happiness cannot last- a crash is coming.  And when that happens, she's worried for my wife's safety or the safety of others around her.

3.  My wife doesn't talk to me because she feels extreme anxiety and gets migraines...which I now understand.  This has happened for years and years when she was in difficult situations with anyone.  Because of this, I'm not sure if we'll be able to have a conversation about what our doctor shared.  No other family member is going to push hard for her to get treatment.

4.  I don't know what I can share here about faith, but mine's never been stronger.  I feel no anger at my wife at all, even though she's said hideous things to me.  All I feel is love and compassion, and I'll wait this out as long as it takes.  Yet I can't "save her", I know that from a dozen years of experience with my daughter.  My wife will not return until her mindset shifts.

What do I do?  On one hand, I know it's only been 9 weeks...which is an absolute eternity when you're in this position.  The holidays are coming up as well and that may make her look at this from a different angle.  Heck, we have a cruise booked 15 days from now, maybe that will be a catalyst.  But for now, anyone I reach out to within our family just makes things worse because of my wife's current perception.

For now, I'm focusing on myself and trying to stay as busy as possible.  I get up early, hit the gym, and pray before dawn every day.  I'm also studying the Bible and BPD materials as well, plus working on the house, etc.  So mentally, I'm in a pretty good place 90% of the time...maybe 1 in 4 days I'll have a super tough couple of hours.  Overall I'm content though, which feels like a miracle in itself in this situation.  I desperately want to help my wife though so any advice would be appreciated.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi Pook075, welcome -- glad you reached out and joined the group. You've been on a long journey, and it sounds like it's been one thing after another in the last few years, with not a lot of time to breathe.

Like you said, you're "only" 9 weeks into this insight into your W's challenge, so it's understandable that you're struggling in some areas. This is a marathon, not a sprint, so it's OK to be where you're at.

Briefly, regarding your first concern, I can share that it's pretty common for those with pwBPD (persons with BPD) in their lives to have really different experiences of the pwBPD than "other people out there". BPD often shows up more strongly the close the relationship, and pwBPD can be driven, successful, charismatic, and competent in non-intimate relationships (such as at work, with clients/students, with neighbors, etc). Also, when the family member wBPD is a spouse versus an in-law, for example, that can also contribute to drastically different experiences. So, it's not surprising to me that you have family members who don't believe that your W is having MH struggles.

While I'm not sure that makes it better for you, I hope you know that it is common to experience.

Regarding concern #2, has your doctor been specific about her safety concerns re: your W? Your doctor sounds like a good resource. I wonder if you can continue seeing her, or get a referral from her for a counselor, for more support as you're in this gray zone right now.

Some thoughts on #3:

3.  My wife doesn't talk to me because she feels extreme anxiety and gets migraines...which I now understand.  This has happened for years and years when she was in difficult situations with anyone.  Because of this, I'm not sure if we'll be able to have a conversation about what our doctor shared.  No other family member is going to push hard for her to get treatment.

So, this is an area where while you're separated from your W, you have an opportunity to do some reading and learning about some tools that may be new and/or nonintuitive. Have you checked out our workshop on

Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating

yet?

Let us know your thoughts. When you described your W's reluctance to talk with you, that's the first skill I thought I'd check in with you about.

Finally, as regards your faith, these are our Discussion Group Guidelines

so please know that as long as you feel you can follow "1.11 Respecting Religious Belief Systems", you are good to go!

...

Keep us posted on what you think about the "Don't Be Invalidating" article, and we can go from there. Post any time, reach out any time.

Again, welcome;

kells76

[Pook075]

Hi Pook075, welcome -- glad you reached out and joined the group. You've been on a long journey, and it sounds like it's been one thing after another in the last few years, with not a lot of time to breathe.

Like you said, you're "only" 9 weeks into this insight into your W's challenge, so it's understandable that you're struggling in some areas. This is a marathon, not a sprint, so it's OK to be where you're at.

First off, thanks for such a kind, detailed reply.  I genuinely appreciate it!

Briefly, regarding your first concern, I can share that it's pretty common for those with pwBPD (persons with BPD) in their lives to have really different experiences of the pwBPD than "other people out there". BPD often shows up more strongly the close the relationship, and pwBPD can be driven, successful, charismatic, and competent in non-intimate relationships (such as at work, with clients/students, with neighbors, etc). Also, when the family member wBPD is a spouse versus an in-law, for example, that can also contribute to drastically different experiences. So, it's not surprising to me that you have family members who don't believe that your W is having MH struggles.

While I'm not sure that makes it better for you, I hope you know that it is common to experience.

It does make me feel better and I do understand it- my wife is happy at the moment because she's manic AND because she can dismiss me at face value to other family members (I'm happy, so I'm better off without him).  When her and I talk, it's a completely different conversation because there's tension there from her actions.  It's much easier to walk away and not face problems than it is to face them head-on.  I completely understand that it's not me that's the problem here.  However, I can certainly do better and I'm actively working to be that person for myself and my wife of 24 years.

Regarding concern #2, has your doctor been specific about her safety concerns re: your W? Your doctor sounds like a good resource. I wonder if you can continue seeing her, or get a referral from her for a counselor, for more support as you're in this gray zone right now.

I only saw the doctor on this past Friday, and since then I've talked to my non-BPD daughter (I have two young adult girls).  My wife wants to follow up with the doctor ASAP so that's a very positive sign.

As far as concerns, my doctor is worried about my wife- now and in the future.  For now, she's impulsive and not thinking things out clearly, which my doc said makes her a danger to herself and others (she said this 4x over 30 minutes).  Doc is also worried once she exits this manic stage that the weight of what she did will really crush her.  I'm just hoping she reaches out to me before being rash in her decisions.  The doc did say several times that she will return to me after the manic phase ends, but she also repeatedly said that, "I'm in a real bind here."

Some thoughts on #3:

So, this is an area where while you're separated from your W, you have an opportunity to do some reading and learning about some tools that may be new and/or nonintuitive. Have you checked out our workshop on

Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating

yet?

Let us know your thoughts. When you described your W's reluctance to talk with you, that's the first skill I thought I'd check in with you about.

I've read the article twice now- once a few days ago and again today.  And I've COMPLETELY blown it in early conversations.  For example, she came home twice within the first two weeks, and really made zero effort to work things out before leaving again.  I've said to her too many times to count, "You didn't even try" or "you didn't even give it a real chance."  I realize now that she gave the best effort she had, which wasn't a lot but I still should have validated that.  I will as soon as she reaches out again, and that may be enough to get a 3rd try.

Here's where I'm torn though.  My wife has told me many things these past two months that she hasn't told anyone else.  A few of those things put her in danger of losing her entire family (fantasizing about an affair with a close family friend and waiting for an opportunity to tell him), so I did tell her mom about it.  And of course, you can imagine her reaction- I knew she'd explode and lose all trust in me.  But I felt like I had to protect my wife in that situation.  Was this the right move on my part?

Part two of that is whenever she talks to me about that (which I try to avid at all costs), she says, "I never said that...and besides, I told you that in confidence!"  How do I handle that?  The last time I said that I probably misheard her or she mis-spoke, which isn't true.  I didn't mis-hear three full sentences.  I don't want to argue over it either though; I've forgiven her and nothing actually happened.

For everything else, I'll make a real effort to validate all of her feelings from now on, even if they're hostile.  For instance, she'll say, "You've never cared about my family."  I have always cared and that's what I've said up until this point, but I can validate that by saying something like, "I'll make more of an effort in the future so you'll know how much I love your family."  Is that more on the right track?

Finally, you asked me what I thought of the article/course- it was excellent.  I've been very compassionate this whole 9 weeks, but the validation hasn't been there like it should have.  TY for sharing that and making the course to begin with!

And TY for the reply again- this seems like an awesome community and I'll be here for awhile.  Even if we do work things out this week or before the holidays, this already feels like home due to the many, many years I've dealt with BPD in my wife and daughter.

[Pook075]

I double posted and don't see how to delete this one.  Sorry about that.

[kells76]

No worries about the double post, you worked it out just fine.

My wife wants to follow up with the doctor ASAP so that's a very positive sign.

As far as concerns, my doctor is worried about my wife- now and in the future.  For now, she's impulsive and not thinking things out clearly, which my doc said makes her a danger to herself and others (she said this 4x over 30 minutes).  Doc is also worried once she exits this manic stage that the weight of what she did will really crush her.  I'm just hoping she reaches out to me before being rash in her decisions.  The doc did say several times that she will return to me after the manic phase ends, but she also repeatedly said that, "I'm in a real bind here."

That's good information to hear.

Some pwBPD struggle with feeling "ganged up on" if their spouse seems to be "on good terms" with a medical or mental health professional who is also seeing the pwBPD. This is why often in marriage/couples counseling, the counselor focuses on the non-BPD's "issues" or "problems" for the first few sessions -- so that the pwBPD doesn't walk in and feel like "it's them against me so I'm out of here".

As your W wants to see the Dr, and you've also been working closely with the Dr, consider if it might long-term be helpful for the dynamic if, now that you and the Dr are on the same page, you step back a bit and see if your W can trust and work with the Dr -- perhaps without you also chatting with the Dr, for a while.

Basically, what I'm wondering is -- given that many pwBPD struggle with trust, and the doctor sounds very level headed, and your W wants to see the Dr, can we remove any appearance of the Dr "being on your team against W" so that there is a voice of reason into your W's life?

While I don't want to remove support from you, either, it's something to think about. And again, your Dr may have very good recommendations for a counselor/therapist for you. Food for thought.

In terms of your hope of your W reaching out to you before being rash, these boards could be a good place for you to pre-game how you might want to deal with that. Like you mentioned, there have been ways you both have spoken to each other in the past that weren't helpful for the situation, though you didn't know it at the time. Sometimes it takes non-intuitive responses to be effective with a pwBPD, so if you want to walk through some possibilities ahead of time, let us know.

I've read the article twice now- once a few days ago and again today.  And I've COMPLETELY blown it in early conversations.  For example, she came home twice within the first two weeks, and really made zero effort to work things out before leaving again.  I've said to her too many times to count, "You didn't even try" or "you didn't even give it a real chance."  I realize now that she gave the best effort she had, which wasn't a lot but I still should have validated that.  I will as soon as she reaches out again, and that may be enough to get a 3rd try.

pwBPD are said to fear abandonment the most, yet at the same time, they often do and say things that to us seem completely unhelpful and like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, you noticed that she both came home a couple of times, and seemed to not be doing anything to make things better. That sounds typical of the disorder.

Like you mentioned, the "pretty normal" stuff we want to say and do, like "You aren't helping make this better", aren't very effective for making things better when there's a pwBPD involved! It's good that you can reflect back, notice that, and decide that you want to try something different.

Probably a lot to discuss about best practices/ideas for conversation if/when she reaches out again, but briefly, staying emotionally steady and centered (not unemotional/robot, but managing your emotions to be less extreme than hers in that situation -- if she's a 2, don't go to 1, and if she's a 9, don't go to 10, hang out around 4-6), using your "don't be invalidating" skills, and playing the long game (i.e., don't try to have an entire huge "let's talk about the relationship" discussion right then), are good places to start.

Here's where I'm torn though.  My wife has told me many things these past two months that she hasn't told anyone else.  A few of those things put her in danger of losing her entire family (fantasizing about an affair with a close family friend and waiting for an opportunity to tell him), so I did tell her mom about it.  And of course, you can imagine her reaction- I knew she'd explode and lose all trust in me.  But I felt like I had to protect my wife in that situation.  Was this the right move on my part?

Good question to ask. If I'm tracking with you, you felt like if you didn't tell your W's family about some things she'd told you, she'd lose them, and only you could protect her from losing her family?

I'm curious if you've heard about this framework for understanding conflict dynamics -- it's called the Karpman Drama Triangle ?

Briefly, it's a way of looking at dysfunctional ways we engage in conflict/argument, and the sort of rote roles we feel comfortable falling into when there is conflict. The 3 roles are described as the Victim (I'm hurt, it's not my fault, I didn't do anything, I need to be rescued), the Persecutor (I'm correct, I'm just telling it like it is, it's your fault), and the Rescuer (I can save the day, I can fix everything, you can't help yourself, I need to help you).

If you want to, check out the workshop, and after you do, let us know if you think it applied to your situation with you, your W, and her family. Did you see similarities, differences, did it seem to apply, did it seem to not fit...? I'll be curious if you feel like you can answer your own question ("Was this the right move on my part") after reading the thread.

Part two of that is whenever she talks to me about that (which I try to avid at all costs), she says, "I never said that...and besides, I told you that in confidence!"  How do I handle that?  The last time I said that I probably misheard her or she mis-spoke, which isn't true.  I didn't mis-hear three full sentences.  I don't want to argue over it either though; I've forgiven her and nothing actually happened.

How long do those discussions go on for? How frequently do they happen? Is it usually her bringing it back up, and if so, is it "out of the blue", or connected with something else?

For everything else, I'll make a real effort to validate all of her feelings from now on, even if they're hostile.  For instance, she'll say, "You've never cared about my family."  I have always cared and that's what I've said up until this point, but I can validate that by saying something like, "I'll make more of an effort in the future so you'll know how much I love your family."  Is that more on the right track?

I get it -- for a "broadly normal" relationship, yes, you might be able to reply with "that's not true, I love your family, see, we went on vacation every year together for 15 years" and have that "work", like the other person would then be like, "Oh yeah, I forgot, yes, those facts are true, and now I see you do care".

However, for pwBPD, as you're recognizing, JADE-ing -- responding with Justification, Argument, Defending, & Explaining -- tends to add fuel to the fire, as they experience it not as "ah, relief, I am reminded of the facts", but rather "my feelings still aren't being noticed, my feelings are being steamrolled, therefore I don't matter, I must escalate my intensity to have my feelings seen" (or something like that).

I think you're on the right track with stopping presenting facts to her when she makes extreme emotional statements. That's a big part of "stopping making it worse" -- you're working to not be invalidating.

Another way to respond when she says something like "You never cared about my family" might be to say "Oh my gosh babe... that would feel awful to feel like I never cared".

Notice that you aren't agreeing with her that you never cared. That might be the pitfall of an approach that promises to do better -- it might inadvertently "admit" that she was right that you "cared less" in the past. What this approach does do is acknowledge that to feel like one's spouse never cared about the family would hurt. That's a structure that can be helpful to practice: "It would feel X to think Y". You're agreeing -- and I think you could do this honestly -- that yes, it would feel bad to think that that were true.

Validation is an ability or strength like many others -- we start out as beginners and through practice over time, become more skilled. It might feel clunky or nonintuitive at first, and that might just be how it is. As you keep practicing and reading, it's likely that over time, you'll develop a better and better "gut feel" for how validation can be most effective in your relationship.

I have to wrap up for now, but in regards to:

Finally, you asked me what I thought of the article/course- it was excellent.  I've been very compassionate this whole 9 weeks, but the validation hasn't been there like it should have.  TY for sharing that and making the course to begin with!

And TY for the reply again- this seems like an awesome community and I'll be here for awhile.  Even if we do work things out this week or before the holidays, this already feels like home due to the many, many years I've dealt with BPD in my wife and daughter.

So glad you found benefit from the article, and I'm glad you're settling in here. As many members here say, this is a family, so we are here to support and encourage each other in the long haul.

-kells76

[Pook075]

No worries about the double post, you worked it out just fine.

That's good information to hear.

Some pwBPD struggle with feeling "ganged up on" if their spouse seems to be "on good terms" with a medical or mental health professional who is also seeing the pwBPD. This is why often in marriage/couples counseling, the counselor focuses on the non-BPD's "issues" or "problems" for the first few sessions -- so that the pwBPD doesn't walk in and feel like "it's them against me so I'm out of here".

As your W wants to see the Dr, and you've also been working closely with the Dr, consider if it might long-term be helpful for the dynamic if, now that you and the Dr are on the same page, you step back a bit and see if your W can trust and work with the Dr -- perhaps without you also chatting with the Dr, for a while.

I think that's sound advice- everything with the doc came back really good for me (bloodwork, labs, etc) so I won't have to go back unless I'm sick or something (and I rarely get sick).  So I will keep my distance there and keep conversations super casual when I see my doc in church.  I would rather my wife be able to trust our doc completely than wonder if the doctor is talking about her behind her back.

pwBPD are said to fear abandonment the most, yet at the same time, they often do and say things that to us seem completely unhelpful and like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So, you noticed that she both came home a couple of times, and seemed to not be doing anything to make things better. That sounds typical of the disorder.

Like you mentioned, the "pretty normal" stuff we want to say and do, like "You aren't helping make this better", aren't very effective for making things better when there's a pwBPD involved! It's good that you can reflect back, notice that, and decide that you want to try something different.

Probably a lot to discuss about best practices/ideas for conversation if/when she reaches out again, but briefly, staying emotionally steady and centered (not unemotional/robot, but managing your emotions to be less extreme than hers in that situation -- if she's a 2, don't go to 1, and if she's a 9, don't go to 10, hang out around 4-6), using your "don't be invalidating" skills, and playing the long game (i.e., don't try to have an entire huge "let's talk about the relationship" discussion right then), are good places to start.

That's great insight, thank you.  I guess my only follow-up question would be if I should try to start ANY conversations at this point or simply stay away?  That's the biggest thing I'm struggling with.

Good question to ask. If I'm tracking with you, you felt like if you didn't tell your W's family about some things she'd told you, she'd lose them, and only you could protect her from losing her family?

I'm curious if you've heard about this framework for understanding conflict dynamics -- it's called the Karpman Drama Triangle ?

Briefly, it's a way of looking at dysfunctional ways we engage in conflict/argument, and the sort of rote roles we feel comfortable falling into when there is conflict. The 3 roles are described as the Victim (I'm hurt, it's not my fault, I didn't do anything, I need to be rescued), the Persecutor (I'm correct, I'm just telling it like it is, it's your fault), and the Rescuer (I can save the day, I can fix everything, you can't help yourself, I need to help you).

If you want to, check out the workshop, and after you do, let us know if you think it applied to your situation with you, your W, and her family. Did you see similarities, differences, did it seem to apply, did it seem to not fit...? I'll be curious if you feel like you can answer your own question ("Was this the right move on my part") after reading the thread.

How long do those discussions go on for? How frequently do they happen? Is it usually her bringing it back up, and if so, is it "out of the blue", or connected with something else?

I did take the Karpman Drama Triangle course and I'm not sure if it applies here.  I was bouncing between the roles of the victim and the rescuer, trying to protect her while also feeling helpless.  Now, I'm not in any of the three roles since I'm not talking to anyone about my feelings or what was said/done.

My wife, she's been playing the roles of both the victim and the persecutor, often at the same time.  She really feels both in the same day, sometimes the same minute.

I will say that since I talked to the mom, my wife has realized that she was chasing a fantasy and not thinking straight.  She was embarrassed that she ever felt that way in the first place.  So while she was furious with me and it probably set us back a month or more, I believe that I made the right choice.  Would you agree?[/quote]

Validation is an ability or strength like many others -- we start out as beginners and through practice over time, become more skilled. It might feel clunky or nonintuitive at first, and that might just be how it is. As you keep practicing and reading, it's likely that over time, you'll develop a better and better "gut feel" for how validation can be most effective in your relationship.

Thanks and I fully agree- I'm figuring this out day by day, and that's how we learn anything.  Thanks so much for the advice and support!