Worried about my daughter, communication with her uBPD mother really difficult

[BKDamon]

Hi everyone,

So I’m worried about my daughter (she’s 12): since the beginning of the school year, she has refused several times to go to school. It mostly happens when she’s at her mom’s (uBPD), who allows her to skip classes and sometimes school entirely. It only happened once at my place but I consider that missing school for no valid reason is not an option so she left the house angry, but she did go school that day. We talked about it, I try every morning to be supportive and get her in a good mood, and it never happened again at my place.

On Monday, I went with my daughter to discuss this with my kid’s therapist. No real issue at school it seems, but my daughter says that she’s tired all the time and that she can’t keep up with the rhythm (even though she just had a two-week vacation). When the therapist asked if she had a consistent bedtime routine, my daughter said that she does at my place, but that at her mom’s it was more variable. The therapist also validated the fact that it was better to avoid skipping school, and I think it was important for my daughter to hear that from an external person. The therapist thought it was important to discuss these issues in presence of my ex, so we booked another appointment with my daughter and her mom. All good.

However, this morning, I received a text from my ex saying that my daughter was once again refusing to go to school. I answered that it was important to avoid missing school, that I knew it was a difficult situation to handle, that I was here if she needed help. Apparently, my ex had already decided that my daughter could stay at home one more time and felt unvalidated, because in response she  accused me of judging her, not listening to her, not listening to my kids and stated that if it only happened at her place, it was only because my kids can’t express themselves at mine.
I tried a couple of times to calmly remind her that I didn’t accuse her of anything, that it was just what most psychologists recommend and that I was here if she needed. To no effect. It only caused an avalanche of texts accusing me of not listening again, of projecting, of attacking her very essence (sic), and so on. And I just received a notification from our shared calendar that she canceled the appointment with the therapist.

I don’t really know what to do about all that. I’m tired of taking the blame for everything. And most of all, I’m worried about my daughter.
I’m worried about my three kids, in fact (D12, S9, D6). My ex stopped a couple of weeks ago the desensitization treatment of my son, because according to her, it was to difficult for him to take. At my place, my son takes his treatment without any problem. And for my little one, she started judo this year and was a little impressed by the other kids. We discussed this together and at my place, she’s OK to try a couple more times to see if she finally enjoys it. But as soon as she’s at her mom’s, she refuses to go. When my ex describe my kids’ reactions when she’s at her place, it’s like they’re not the same children. I don’t know how much of that is true, but it must be very disturbing and tiring for them.

Anyway, I imagine that there is not much I can do, but any sort of support of guidance would be MUCH appreciated!

thanks a lot
BKD

[kells76]

Hey BKDamon, what you wrote reminds me of stuff we've been through, too.

DH's kids' mom also minimizes the importance of the kids attending school in various ways ("you can skip school on your birthday and go to the mall with me", SD16 not attending the same school anywhere for more than 2 years, taking both kids out of school even if only one has the day off, etc etc).

It's really good your kids have a therapist that they trust and listen to. Is there any way their mom can pull them out of therapy unilaterally, or is that protected?

...I received a text from my ex saying that my daughter was once again refusing to go to school. I answered that it was important to avoid missing school, that I knew it was a difficult situation to handle, that I was here if she needed help. Apparently, my ex had already decided that my daughter could stay at home one more time and felt unvalidated, because in response she  accused me of judging her, not listening to her, not listening to my kids and stated that if it only happened at her place, it was only because my kids can’t express themselves at mine.
I tried a couple of times to calmly remind her that I didn’t accuse her of anything, that it was just what most psychologists recommend and that I was here if she needed. To no effect. It only caused an avalanche of texts accusing me of not listening again, of projecting, of attacking her very essence (sic), and so on. And I just received a notification from our shared calendar that she canceled the appointment with the therapist.

We have also heard, almost verbatim, that "the only reason the kids act out with me is because they don't feel like they can express themselves with you". Amazing how identical the mindset is.

It does sound like she was lashing out due to an inability to manage the situation.

I wonder if your kids' mom is hitting the upper limit of her ability to parent? Maybe she has, in the past, relied on manipulation, "convincing" the kids, sweet talking, parental power, etc, but now that your oldest is a preteen, those techniques are no longer effective, and she is realizing that she doesn't have the "we are one amoeba" type of control over D12 that she pretended to have in the past.

Additionally, I wonder if your kids' mom tacitly/non-verbally communicates to the kids that she needs emotional support, so it subconsciously induces in the kids, especially D12, a psychosomatic reason to stay home -- ostensibly due to "fatigue" but really because D12 is reading the room and staying to be her mom's emotional support.

Anyway, all that being said, there are a few different concrete ways to approach texts like that.

First thought I had was after she wrote "D12 is once again refusing to go to school" to keep things BIFF/problem-solving, and maybe steer away from the validation/SET -- something like "Thanks for the update. I'll come get her for school unless I hear back from you by 9:00 that you are taking her." That could be a way to keep things focused on solving the immediate issue, versus giving Mom a bigger target to take out her frustration. My suspicion is that she reacted to "it was important to avoid missing school, that I knew it was a difficult situation to handle, that I was here if she needed help" by taking it as blame and personal criticism of her incompetence. Now, (a) it's a separate issue whether Mom is competent to parent (sigh), and (b), it's not your job to walk on eggshells so that she never feels blamed inside. That being said, I hope it's helpful to do a little post-mortem on the He said-She said texts so you can try different approaches that keep the focus on meeting your kids' immediate needs.

Another approach is to not respond to that kind of text at all. I'm assuming that this latest school refusal was on Mom's parenting time? This is more playing the long game. Don't rescue Mom from her decisions. She needs to step up and parent, and if she can't, then there will be consequences -- not from you -- down the road. This would involve you interfacing a lot more with the school in parallel, versus "working together with Mom" with the school.  It'd look like you, on your own, reaching out to the school counselor, attendance office, teachers, etc, saying "D12 has been struggling with school refusal, and FYI she has a 3-4-4-3 Mom's house-Dad's house schedule. What have you noticed or heard, what do you think I can do to help nip this in the bud?" Focus on being a proactive problem solver that is kid-focused, and make your face and name known around her school. Let staff know you're concerned and want to do what you can to support D12 and are open to hearing from them what they suggest. Don't say "it only happens with Mom" or blame, only focus on how to help D12 and be part of a team with the school staff. Weekly email check-ins with teachers/school counselor could be a way to go?

...

Same with the martial arts, SD16 when younger tried the same one as DH, but I suspect because it was "related to him", probably received tacit negative feedback from Mom's house, so that didn't last. Now SD16 does the same one as Stepdad, probably with full positive support, because Stepdad is "the good one". The nonverbal communication has a strong impact.

The fact that the kids see a counselor who also meets with you and Mom is big.

Is the counselor open to interfacing with SD12's school staff at all? My thought is the more people that you on your own can bring together to support SD12, the better. Unfortunately, you may have to do this without cooperation from the kids' mom. That is where we are at -- school meetings etc go much better and are more focused on our SD14's needs when it is not both families together. Work in parallel regardless of "how things should have been", be a proactive problem solver, reach out on your own to professionals for info and support, and help them connect with each other.

Keep going to the therapy appts. Consider asking at the next one what the T recommends you do in this situation to ensure SD12 goes to school. It may be too much for SD12 to stand up to her mom's tacit need for emotional support, so it may take this trend coming to the attention of school staff for it to be actionable. But as long as it's on record that you know about school refusal, see it as a problem, and are doing as much as you can to fix it, it might not be a bad thing if it escalated to get professional attention.

Sorry if this is disjointed, have to wrap up.

You are VERY not alone in this.

[ForeverDad]

First thought I had was  -- something like "Thanks for the update. I'll come get her for school unless I hear back from you by 9:00 that you are taking her." That could be a way to keep things focused on solving the immediate issue, versus giving Mom a bigger target to take out her frustration.

This was my first thought too.

My divorce was two years but I was in and out of courts for the next six years too.  Court was determined to deal with issues one by one, not the overall environment.  Interesting, in my final case at court where I already had custody and was seeking majority time, that was when I managed to get school involved.  Ex had acted up at a 5th grade school event to a kids camp.  Teachers testified and I submitted a tally of school tardies for the latest school year.  Two were on my time, the other nineteen were mother's time.  Guess what?  I got majority time during the school year even though some of my reports of mother's antics were during the summer.

My take on that was that courts are very willing to listen and respond to school issues, well, more than me.

So track when your children are absent or tardy - and on which parent's time.  You never know, it may make a difference in the future.  It may swing parenting responsibility into your favor.

[Turkish]

I surprised that the school isn't more concerned. In the USA, schools lose funds for unexcused absences. Truancy is against the law. I got an official letter (kids are based in my home for school, but we have joint custody) that we might be investigated about tardiness and missed days... all on mom's time. If you're in another country, I imagine it's different of course, but I'm surprised that the school isn't more proactive.

[Notwendy]

I was going to post what Turkish did. If a student misses too much school or is tardy too many times, first there's a notice from the school and then if there's no response or the absence continues, then social services gets involved.

While the first instinct is to intervene to protect your D, this also involves continued drama between you and her mother. In the grand scheme of things, I wonder which is worse- to lose a year of school or for BPD mother to raise her and her siblings. I would think that sending children to school would be a primary duty of a parent and something to consider when deciding custody.

My thoughts on this as someone who has a BPD mother is that, at around 12, I was useful to my mother in the sense that I could do a lot of things around the house. I also started to take in the role of emotional caretaker to her. While it's normal to have a teen do chores at home, this was more along the lines of "parentification"- meeting emotional needs than tasks. There was also more conflict between me and BPD mother at this time, as teen begin to assert their individuality. But still, a child wants approval from a parent so doing what the parent wants gets approval. So my question is that - since this behavior continues- what is each of them getting out of it?

If your ex is enmeshed with your D, the normal stage of being more interested in peer relationships might feel threatening. If your D goes to school, meets friends, she may want to spend time with them. ( which is normal for teens). If your D is in the role of emotional caretaker, she meets mother's needs if she stays home.

On your D's part, she gets approval for doing what her parents want her to do.

[BKDamon]

Thank you all very much for your input.

Doing a post-mortem is indeed usually helpful. Whatever my intentions were, they were clearly misunderstood, hence her lashing out at me. She probably thought that I was criticizing her for the other times she allow D12 to skip school. But I can’t know beforehand what her state of mind is, nor am I willing to waist my energy trying to figure it out or walk on eggshells again. Trying to defend my intentions wasn’t constructive either. I’ll probably try out what you guys suggest ("Thanks for the update. I'll come get her for school unless I hear back from you by 9:00 that you are taking her."), but ultimately, you’re right, she’s gonna have to face her decisions.

She contacted D12’s homeroom teacher a couple of weeks ago, and emailed the school nurse that last time (it was indeed during her parenting time). So I guess that’s why the school isn’t that concerned yet. The homeroom teacher listened to D12 and suggested that she met with the school therapist, but she preferred to talk to her usual therapist instead. My ex hoped that the school would adapt my daughter’s timetable as they sometimes do for children with special needs. She even told my daughter to ask them if it was OK if she skips everyday’s first class so that she can sleep a little longer... I really don’t understand how she can think they would even consider this solution. So unreal. I should indeed probably start to interact with the school myself, so they know there’s another possible interlocutor. Bringing the therapist into the picture seems like a pretty good idea, I’ll talk to her about it.

Today, she brought the kids to my house 30 minutes late, without any notice or apology. But the good thing is that the therapist’s appointment reappeared on our shared calendar.
@Kells76, she can refuse to bring my daughter to the therapist. In that case, I would just bring her myself, but of course the problem is that I’m not the one who needs to hear about the importance of a consistent bedtime routine and of not skipping classes. She does have a habit of switching therapists both for her and the kids, but she seems to get along with the current one, for now.

I don’t know if she’s reached the limit of her parenting ability, but it has been pretty hard for her to deal with our 3 kids since the breakup. We have a 50/50 custody, she has the kids for half of the school week + the week-end every other week. Her mother seems to be around pretty often, even though she lives a little more than 250 miles away. And that’s a good thing, because she had very little patience with the kids when we lived together, and she has already been violent with me in the past.

In my opinion, D12 does indeed believe that she needs to take care of her mom. All three of my kids do, to a certain extent. And from what I’ve observed about D12’s interactions with her siblings, I suspect that she has to somehow compensate for her mom’s very lax education. I believe that for my daughter, one of the perks she gets from skipping class is some time at home by herself, but I reckon that there might be more complex psychological phenomenons going on between her and her mom.

[Notwendy]

Have you spoken to your D? Does she feel safe speaking to you?

By 12 I became aware that something was going on with my BPD mother. I didn't know what, but her behavior wasn't normal- yet, we were not allowed to ask about it or speak about it to anyone. Assuming all was normal was the rule in our family. BPD mother was able to pull it together in public but there was a lot going on at home that nobody had a clue about. Since my mother would pull it together, adults didn't believe us, and we didn't think we could trust anyone. We would get punished if we said anything.

Mostly, school was our happy place. We wanted to go, see our friends, and it was a safe space. We never knew what we'd find when we got home from school- BPD mother could be raging at us, or anything. But middle school- socially- got tougher. There were the things you see in the teen movies- the "mean girls" the "popular girls" and while I had good friends, I was socially insecure. We were starting to have crushes on boys and I had crushes too but was too afraid to speak to boys at the time.

Due to frequent criticism from BPD mother, my self esteem was low. BPD mother was constantly concerned about her weight. I wasn't ever overweight, but somehow she convinced me I was, which I see now as projection but I didn't understand that as a pre-teen. This led to insecurity about my appearance. I recall one time at about age 13, I told my parents I had the flu and missed several days of school. I didn't have the flu. I just wanted to stay by myself and not be worried about how I looked at school, or the social interactions there.

I am glad your D has a T. Someone needs to be a safe person for her to talk to. But she needs to know family supports her too. We didn't have that. We didn't trust any adult in contact with BPD mother. They believed what she told them.

As kids get older, the relationship with parents matures too. Little kids don't have mature interactions. As kids get older, and more emotionally mature, their interactions become more adult. BPD involves relationship dysfunction- all relationships- not just romantic ones. If you felt it was difficult to live with your ex, how do you think your D feels? Can you ask her?

[BKDamon]

Thanks a lot for sharing Notwendy, it’s really really helpful.

I have talked several times to my daughter about her refusal to go to school. She didn’t tell me much, though. No problem at school apparently, she just said that she was tired. But again, she only asked once if she could skip class at my place, and even though she left home a little upset, it wasn’t hard at all to convince her to go to school. Her mom believes that she might be bullied at school, but she never mentioned it to either me, her teacher or her therapist (or her mom, that said). She only says that it’s hard to keep up with school, but when she gets home she doesn’t seem tired at all and her grades are really good.

I think that she’s starting to realize something about her mom’s personality, but I don’t know if she feels ready to talk about it yet. When I broke up with her, my ex rapidly started an official relationship with the guy she cheated on me with, and I think my kids took the habit of not talking about what was happening at their mom’s, to spare my feelings. I think I remember littlest one saying that their mom told them to do so, because "daddy’s sad that I’m not in love with him anymore", or something like that.

And I don’t talk about my ex that much because communication between us is pretty tense and I don’t want to say bad things about her in front of them. Yesterday, for example, I was writing a post on this forum and D12 asked me what I was writing about. In retrospect, I could have said something simple and honest like "I sometimes have difficulties communicating with your mom, so I ask for advice on this forum", but at that moment, nothing came to my mind so I just eluded the subject. I’ll try to let her know and feel that if she ever needs to talk, we can talk about anything.

D12 can be pretty secretive. Her therapist said that she was quite passive during her last appointment, for example. Another example is the things she talks about with my girlfriend. My ex has decided to sever all contacts with her father a few months before we separated. At first, she said that she didn’t want to prevent our kids to see their grandfather, but it seems that they haven’t seen him since we broke up ~1.5 year ago. The first thing that D12 talked about with my new gf was that she missed going to her grandparents, because "something happened". She talked about it twice to her in fact, but the second time, she didn’t specifically mention her grandparents, only "people we knew".

D12 complained again today that she didn’t want to go to school on Monday (not a refusal, she’s just not looking forward to it). I asked her if there was something going on besides her fatigue. She said "yes but I don’t really want to talk about it". I don’t want to worm it out of her, I just told her again that if she ever wants to talk about it, I was here.

I can’t imagine what it’s like to have a mother with BPD. What I witnessed during the time I lived with her mom was a lot of love, but also a lot of anger outbursts, of projections, of enmeshment. And I’m not here anymore to be a buffer. I’m doing my best to give my kids a supportive and stable environment when they’re with me. I hope that they’ll feel safe to talk to me if anything’s wrong, whether it is with me or with their mom.

Do you see anything else I can do to nurture this kind of environment?

[ForeverDad]

I think my kids took the habit of not talking about what was happening at their mom’s, to spare my feelings.

I'm the family genealogist.  I recall a few decades ago looking at my brother's court license for his second marriage.  I noticed that later that same day his ex came in for a license to her third marriage.  I hadn't known about it but he had suspected she had previously remarried.  His kids were upset and asked why I searched it out, they had been told to keep that 6 month marriage an absolute secret from their dad.

D12 complained again today that she didn’t want to go to school on Monday (not a refusal, she’s just not looking forward to it). I asked her if there was something going on besides her fatigue. She said "yes but I don’t really want to talk about it". I don’t want to worm it out of her, I just told her again that if she ever wants to talk about it, I was here.

Step outside the box and help her see things objectively.  In my life a close relative had a need but didn't ask my help.  Later I found out and she explained I might have said No.  So I told her... I might have said Yes.  Unfortunately, by not asking, the result had no hope of being a Yes.  "Ask, it might be Yes.  If you don't ask or share then it must be No."

I’m doing my best to give my kids a supportive and stable environment when they’re with me. I hope that they’ll feel safe to talk to me if anything’s wrong, whether it is with me or with their mom.

Do you see anything else I can do to nurture this kind of environment?

Your kids can easily forget one conversation.  Don't assume they will remember.  Over the months and years you need to remind them of your support and offer to share whatever is worrying them.

[Notwendy]

I can’t imagine what it’s like to have a mother with BPD.

With BPD on a spectrum, that can vary. I do recall things got "tougher" during my teen age years. With parenting my own teens during this time, I could see that they needed to "differentiate" themselves- become their own person. Teens don't know who they are yet- and sometimes for a teen that means "not parents" so they will "reject" the parent's suggestions and at the same time, they need boundaries. So you may have to bite your tongue if they get irritated at you but put your foot down if they do something like skip school or not do your homework. With a BPD parent the parent might rage at everything and also be too permissive.

A parent also needs to have a strong sense of self to withstand the pushing away and also hold the boundaries. Sounds like your ex has poor boundaries. The parent needs to know when to let it go and when to hold the line. They need some freedom to be themselves and boundaries for the important things. Kind of like- decorate your room however you want but you must go to school.

If the teen is enmeshed with the parent, then that task of becoming an individual is more of a challenge. In our situation, we had to be obedient, completely obedient or face her anger, rather than a response that fit the "transgression".

I agree, you should not be the one to discuss her mother, but thankfully she has a therapist to talk to her about that. I think one of the most helpful things for us was spending time with my father's family during school breaks. We got to experience "normal". On your part, give her your time and attention, and unconditional love. I think having non BPD family members and also mothers of friends as role models, as supportive adults makes a difference.

[BKDamon]

@ForeverDad, I’m with you: I have and will repeat to my daughter that she can ask for my help anytime and that I am here to discuss her problems if she needs to.

On your part, give her your time and attention, and unconditional love.

I’m trying my best to do that, thank you for reminding me what’s essential.

My kids are at my place until tomorrow afternoon. My daughter had no problem going to school today and yesterday. We’ll see what’ll happen on Thursday morning. She’s still not thrilled to go to school, she asked me the age at which school isn’t mandatory anymore. But she opened up a little.

It might be that she has an irregular bedtime routine at her mom’s, as her T supposed, but she also mentioned difficulties with her current best friend who she thinks has a peculiar personality (for example, her bf told her that she hated her and didn’t want to talk to her when my daughter didn’t get the haircut she recommended. It was on her birthday, sadly). She’s realizing that her other friends don’t react this way at all and she thinks she might have to distance herself from her. She also thinks schoolwork is really hard (even though she doesn’t work that much at home and has really satisfying grades) and she said that she cried a little after a group assignment in class during which she felt she was the only one to really take it seriously. So it appears that she’s putting a lot of pressure on herself.

So nothing insurmountable, and even if the instability and drama sure don’t help, I feel less powerless now.

Thanks again to all of you!