Do pwBPD need an antagonist?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

When people are still new in their relationships and trust is still strong, there is much more you can do than when it's deteriorated and out of control.

While this may be the case for nons, because feelings of shame get triggered at the drop of a hat in pwBPD (especially undiagnosed BPD and also NPD), my thinking is that the stage of the relationship probably wouldn't make any difference. pwBPD generally do not trust others, and it's one of defining features of the disorder.

https://therapytips.org/interviews/why-are-borderline-personalities-so-distrustful-of-others

It's a bitter pill to have to swallow, but we actually have very little power to positively influence a relationship with a pwBPD unless they have some level of self-awareness and are willing to work on themselves, which usually is not the case when the person is undiagnosed. I have seen the difference first hand in my BPD brothers who are twins. One suspects he has BPD, and the other denies he has any problems of any kind whatsoever. The first has been making some positive changes in his life, (converting to Orthodoxy and going to confession every week which he calls his therapy -- I assume confession reduces feelings of shame) and I am able to have relationship with him, while the other cut me off after I attempted at setting a teeny tiny boundary in the kindest possible way, but this still triggered intolerable feelings of shame in him.   

[Couscous]

When people are still new in their relationships and trust is still strong, there is much more you can do than when it's deteriorated and out of control.

While this may be the case for nons, because feelings of shame get triggered at the drop of a hat in pwBPD (especially undiagnosed BPD and also NPD), my thinking is that the stage of the relationship probably wouldn't make any difference. pwBPD generally do not trust others, and it's one of defining features of the disorder.

https://therapytips.org/interviews/why-are-borderline-personalities-so-distrustful-of-others

It's a bitter pill to have to swallow, but we actually have very little power to positively influence a relationship with a pwBPD unless they have some level of self-awareness and are willing to work on themselves, which usually is not the case when the person is undiagnosed. I have seen the difference first hand in my BPD brothers who are twins. One suspects he has BPD, and the other denies he has any problems of any kind whatsoever. The first has been making some positive changes in his life, (converting to Orthodoxy and going to confession every week which he calls his therapy -- I assume confession reduces feelings of shame) and I am able to have relationship with him, while the other cut me off after I attempted at setting a teeny tiny boundary in the kindest possible way, but this still triggered intolerable feelings of shame in him.   

[Outdorenthusiast]

Oddly enough, I've been getting called "unsupportive, uncaring, emotionally unavailable" and as many related names as you may can think of all along, even while listening.  Maybe it's because she knows I'm not actually listening at this point.  I'm just standing there as she talks, sometimes for an hour or longer.  I'm out of energy and also just don't know what to do.  If I cut her off and say I'm not listening anymore I would be concerned about how far that would escalate things.  I'm just tired of hearing it all the time.  Even in the instances where she is right about whoever she is talking about I can't stand to hear it or try to be supportive because I hear it so much.  Sort of like the boy who cried wolf I guess.  I'm sure I'm not handling it the best way possible, but I'm out of energy and ideas.

I totally feel for you, and can empathize with youR frustration and fear.  Food for thought - I used to be afraid of her escalation, (I am by nature conflict avoidant, but an ENTJ) but I reached a point of not caring anymore and I think I mentally snapped and wouldn’t accept her abuse anymore.  That was actually a blessing in disguise as it helped me to put better boundaries in place and learn better tools.  It was rocky at first to put the “time” boundary in place (she gets 20 mins to vent - then we take a break for me, and come back to talk if she still needs to - usually she doesn’t, and actually apologizes after) - now 6 months later it is substantially better for me.  Also, I was called similar slander, (uncaring, insensitive etc…). This is not the case, the trick is to quickly somehow validate her feelings to take the steam out of her pressure cooker…. “I am sorry, that must have been really frustrating for you…”. S.E.T. Technique.  (Totally works by the way…). Intensity quickly dissipates and she is able to reset her feelings faster….

Each person is different, but maybe it will help you.  I used to get raged at for 1-2 hours at a time, that just seemed to spiral across a constant stream of consciousness about something that set her off (kids, work, weather - who knows…), and eventually it would turn into something negative about me that I had caused with outlandish claims about how I feel about her (projecting really negative things…).

[Couscous]

I'm sure I'm not handling it the best way possible, but I'm out of energy and ideas.

I thought these articles were good and have some good suggestions on how to handle chronic complainers. The HBR article mentions projective identification which I thought was really interesting.

https://hbr.org/2021/04/managing-a-chronic-complainer

https://www.forbes.com/sites/work-in-progress/2012/11/20/how-to-deal-with-chronic-complainers/?sh=180a7cb21d9c

I think this strategy could work very well:

Here’s my suggestion.

Ask: “Do you want my opinion?”

Human nature makes most people inquisitive enough to say, “Yes” to this question. And then, the person has given permission. They’re in control of the conversation. They have asked to hear your thoughts on the subject.

At that point, let the person know that you have a different point of view, but don’t try to convince them. Make it short and sweet: “I hear what you’re saying but I see it differently.”

Remember, you can disagree without being disagreeable. So remain polite and professional. But hold firm. Don’t get into a debate on the matter. Once this person sees that they don’t have an ally in you, they’ll move on and try to find someone who can give them what they need.
Is this uncomfortable? Yes. But, at times, it’s necessary.

[who_knows11]

I thought these articles were good and have some good suggestions on how to handle chronic complainers. The HBR article mentions projective identification which I thought was really interesting.

https://hbr.org/2021/04/managing-a-chronic-complainer

https://www.forbes.com/sites/work-in-progress/2012/11/20/how-to-deal-with-chronic-complainers/?sh=180a7cb21d9c

I think this strategy could work very well:

Here’s my suggestion.

Ask: “Do you want my opinion?”

Human nature makes most people inquisitive enough to say, “Yes” to this question. And then, the person has given permission. They’re in control of the conversation. They have asked to hear your thoughts on the subject.

At that point, let the person know that you have a different point of view, but don’t try to convince them. Make it short and sweet: “I hear what you’re saying but I see it differently.”

Remember, you can disagree without being disagreeable. So remain polite and professional. But hold firm. Don’t get into a debate on the matter. Once this person sees that they don’t have an ally in you, they’ll move on and try to find someone who can give them what they need.
Is this uncomfortable? Yes. But, at times, it’s necessary.

"I hear what you're saying but I see it differently."  That's been my go to for the last 6 months or so.  Her reply, "of course you disagree. You disagree with literally everything I say."  I tell her I'm sorry people are just different.  Makes her so mad because to her that is just me not accepting responsibility for my faults

[Outdorenthusiast]

"I hear what you're saying but I see it differently."  That's been my go to for the last 6 months or so.  Her reply, "of course you disagree. You disagree with literally everything I say."  I tell her I'm sorry people are just different.  Makes her so mad because to her that is just me not accepting responsibility for my faults

I can hear your frustration, and I used the exact words for a long time.  I also used “I am sorry you feel that way” - both equally failed.

Observation:  It seems you are skipping empathizing with her feelings.  Logic doesn’t work with them like it does for us - it just cranks up the intensity.  Instead as a suggestion “I am sorry, and I can see how that must have made you feel (genuine), I am sure that made you feel very (frustrated/sad/mad) which must be very (concerning/agitating) for you, the reality likely is … x

Now she will think you are actually listening (even though you have been the whole time), and you won’t come across as being obstinate, or condescending, but actually agreeing with her feelings (even though you have a different view and her feelings may be out of whack)….

Keep talking/sharing and if that helps.  It takes practice and you will screw up, but it has helped me.

[ForeverDad]

Often, what does seem to work, doesn't work after some time.  So one approach or one response is not a cure-all.  It's okay to step back, review matters and try a new variation.

[Manic Miner]

It all boils down on whether you are in control of the situation or not. Do you control your own life? Well, you should be. It's your own life after all. Nobody is going to live or die your own life, it will be you.

Do you think something will be changed for the better in the next, say, 5-10-20 years? If uncertain or no, why? And what can you do to make it better?

I'm all for finding solutions, tweaks and workarounds for anything (BPD in this case) that still works and you can enjoy your life together, as a family and in your marriage. Even if that means more learning, tweaking things every now and then with new tools. But if not, if your workarounds are just tools to avoid misery, to be less miserable than you were day before, to survive just another day, then it's a failed show.

[yellowbutterfly]

I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned but I just finished the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" - Margalis Fjelstad, PhD, LMFT (you can find it in the book section here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0)

I found it immensely helpful in all areas of a relationship with a pwBPD whether you are still with them, have some distance, full NC, or healing and learning. It might be worth checking out if you haven't already.