Do pwBPD need an antagonist?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

It seems well-known that pwBPD want to have someone else to blame.  But I am starting to think that a pwBPD *needs* an antagonist in order to function.  Almost like an instinct, or like a superhero who has no reason to exist without an archenemy. 

Yesterday, out of the blue, W started venting frustration about the kids' teacher.  The frustration seemed to stem from the teacher bringing some behavior issues to her attention.  This morning, she was complaining about how the kids always smell like perfume when they get home, implying that the teacher wears to much perfume.  It really makes no sense unless I understand that W somehow has made the teacher her competitor. 

W's dad was an antagonist in her life.  When he passed, she was lost, and I became more of an antagonist.  I actually think she *needs* to have antagonists for life to make sense.  I liken it to driving down a road and coming to a fork.  Unless one road can be labeled as "bad", she doesn't know which direction to go.   Non disordered people would use other information to decide what road to take, or know that either road is an acceptable choice.

Perhaps this is part of "black and white" thinking?  It seems like with my W that this is a maladaptive survival instinct left over from early childhood.  She grew up with her mom and dad being antagonists - standing in the way of her happiness.  Without that conflict, she does not know how to be happy, or what "happy" even is, because "happy" is only in relation to what she is currently labeling as "bad".  Happiness does not seem to be universal to her. 

 I previously thought that W simply blames others to avoid shame.  But is that just assigning a more normal behavior to a disordered person?  Nearly everyone does this at some point, so am I just assuming that my W is doing the same?  In the case of the teacher, I don't know what shame she is really avoiding.   She thinks the teacher is being critical of her kids and parenting, but I certainly don't see it that way.  I simply see it as a teacher being a good teacher and communicating with a parent.  I think the teacher has already been labeled as an antagonist in W's mind because she has to as a natural instinct.  Now, anything the teacher says/does is viewed through that lens.  In other words, it is impossible for her to be friends with the teacher because W needs to have her as a competitor because to her that is the only way life makes sense. 

Thoughts?

[maxsterling]

It seems well-known that pwBPD want to have someone else to blame.  But I am starting to think that a pwBPD *needs* an antagonist in order to function.  Almost like an instinct, or like a superhero who has no reason to exist without an archenemy. 

Yesterday, out of the blue, W started venting frustration about the kids' teacher.  The frustration seemed to stem from the teacher bringing some behavior issues to her attention.  This morning, she was complaining about how the kids always smell like perfume when they get home, implying that the teacher wears to much perfume.  It really makes no sense unless I understand that W somehow has made the teacher her competitor. 

W's dad was an antagonist in her life.  When he passed, she was lost, and I became more of an antagonist.  I actually think she *needs* to have antagonists for life to make sense.  I liken it to driving down a road and coming to a fork.  Unless one road can be labeled as "bad", she doesn't know which direction to go.   Non disordered people would use other information to decide what road to take, or know that either road is an acceptable choice.

Perhaps this is part of "black and white" thinking?  It seems like with my W that this is a maladaptive survival instinct left over from early childhood.  She grew up with her mom and dad being antagonists - standing in the way of her happiness.  Without that conflict, she does not know how to be happy, or what "happy" even is, because "happy" is only in relation to what she is currently labeling as "bad".  Happiness does not seem to be universal to her. 

 I previously thought that W simply blames others to avoid shame.  But is that just assigning a more normal behavior to a disordered person?  Nearly everyone does this at some point, so am I just assuming that my W is doing the same?  In the case of the teacher, I don't know what shame she is really avoiding.   She thinks the teacher is being critical of her kids and parenting, but I certainly don't see it that way.  I simply see it as a teacher being a good teacher and communicating with a parent.  I think the teacher has already been labeled as an antagonist in W's mind because she has to as a natural instinct.  Now, anything the teacher says/does is viewed through that lens.  In other words, it is impossible for her to be friends with the teacher because W needs to have her as a competitor because to her that is the only way life makes sense. 

Thoughts?

[Notwendy]

It's called the Karpman Triangle. The pwBPD prefers victim position. To do that, they need a Persecutor ( Antagonist ) and they need a Rescuer (You).

The problem is, being a rescuer can feel good in the moment. They get to be the good guy. The bottom line though is all roles are dysfunctional. No matter how one enters the Karpman Triangle - the outcome is that one feels like a victim. It's also important to not take on the victim role. A true victim doesn't have a choice. Most adults unless it's something out of the ordinary that there is no choice or control over have choices. They are not true victims.

You aren't a victim of your wife's behavior. You have choices, albeit difficult ones. Your continuing to stay with your wife and take on the role you have in these dynamics is a choice.

I used to perceive my father as being the "good guy" and a victim of my mother's behavior. However, she is the one who is completely dependent on him, and he had choices, albeit difficult ones like you. He was not a victim, he had choices. This is a tough and complicated situation.

[maxsterling]

Hmm.  But is this triangle something that a pwBPD *needs* in order for life to function, and without it life (to them) cannot exist? 

I often feel like if there is no conflict (no antagonist) W will "invent" one or find one somewhere.  In her mind, life is impossible without this conflict.  She can go out to dinner, and everything is perfect, the food is great, the wait staff is awesome, it's not crowded, yet on the way home she will make some kind of comment about the odor of the soap in the bathroom being too strong or something else irrelevant.  It's almost like there has to be at least one thing wrong, otherwise life is just too uncomfortable/boring/untrustworthy, etc.

I am wondering if this stems from growing up with an unstable parent.  In that type of household, there is always something wrong, even if you don't know what it is yet - you are always waiting for it, anticipating it, looking for it.   

[ForeverDad]

I know the feeling.  So many have commented, my pwBPD has had prior relationships but none of them were as bad as it is now.  What's the difference?  Ah, but there's one difference... the others left... you stayed.

It is admirable that you stayed and tried.  But that's also why it got worse.  To stay you had to compromise some Boundaries.  To continue then more Boundaries had to weaken or fall.  Until you're where you are now.

[Notwendy]

Max, it's not possible to make irrational distorted thinking rational. There's no way to know how someone else thinks- it's distorted. It's not due to needing to do it to survive- we all make meaning out of our perceptions. Distorted thinking does that too.

Look at it this way- what if your wife's "seeing" filtered everything through a blue filter. Everything would look blue to her. It's not that she needs for everything to look blue- it's that this is how everything looks to her.

My BPD mother finds something "wrong" with everything. It might be a friend, or a neighbor, or a family member, or her health care providers or anyone or anything.

Is it because of her childhood? It's probably a combination of her genetics, her individual constitution, and environment, and probably not one thing.

[Turkish]

You might benefit from reading this thread on the same board.

I want to add this line that got my attention from this book:

The emotions of BP/NPs are indescribably intense, similar to those of an
infant. Their total focus is—and always will be—on making themselves
feel better.

If there's anything about my W that somehow lingered throughout our relationship, even before marriage and in many good periods, was the constant fear or anxiety about *something*. She was never at peace with herself, there was always something she was "working on", worried, afraid or feared.

Few days ago I found a letter she wrote me after one argument. She wrote about us. She was incredibly empathetic and showed that she genuinely cared about me, offering hope and solutions. But she also mentioned herself, how she "finally has to do what she must to be herself at her best". Date signed was February 2003. Yes, almost 20 years ago. Same lines she wrote last year in her note "this year will be the year where I will be myself again!"

I'm still puzzled how their condition prevents them to see all sides and bigger picture, even when they are actively searching, but running in circles in a find of solution.

Maybe another line explains this as well:

Whatever feelings BP/NPs are experiencing are absolute facts to them, and
they believe that these feelings are caused by someone else.

[maxsterling]

Very good comments here.  Thanks.

[maxsterling]

I know the feeling.  So many have commented, my pwBPD has had prior relationships but none of them were as bad as it is now.  What's the difference?  Ah, but there's one difference... the others left... you stayed.

It is admirable that you stayed and tried.  But that's also why it got worse.  To stay you had to compromise some Boundaries.  To continue then more Boundaries had to weaken or fall.  Until you're where you are now.

Spot on.  Sometimes I feel admirable for staying, other times I feel like a fool.  All those other exes left - and I cannot believe they are all bad people.  Many times I think they are smarter than I. 

Take this as a warning sign - if you are starting a r/s and your partner is telling you of more than one ex who suddenly left, that's probably a bad sign.  This is exactly what happened - W told me about various exes who suddenly abandoned her.  At the time, I felt bad for her because I felt like similar had happened to me before too.  But then I learned there was a very different context for what happened to me and what happened to her. 

[Notwendy]

From what I have read about relationships- what makes people stay is a certain combination of ways that they fit. If someone stays with a disordered person, it's because they too fit that situation, even if it's difficult for them.

Two people may be attracted to each other initially but for the relationship to proceed, there needs to be a certain emotional "fit". One of them is boundaries. Someone with emotionally solid boundaries will feel discomfort if they are with someone who doesn't have them. The relationship isn't likely to last.

It's got nothing to do with being smart or intelligent. My father was very intelligent and highly educated. My best assessment of his situation is that, in his day, people married young and quickly and were married and committed before any issues began.

Your wife's exes didn't "fit" somehow. Either they were more disordered than she is, or less. You have stayed because you two fit somehow. Looking at how and why you fit this could be informative. This is a "high cost" relationship for you, but people do this. Think about drug addiction or alcoholism- there's a high cost to this- it's bad for people's health, it impacts their relationships, but it's more than a chemical addiction- the relief of emotional pain for them is higher than the cost of the addiction.

All behaviors are like this- a behavior will continue when the pay off exceeds the cost.

One payoff of being with a disordered person is that going from crisis to crisis and a focus on them takes the focus off other things, including self. That provides a similar "escape" of feelings like a drug does.

Another is the "ego" boost of being the ONE who can save them. All others have failed, they must be inferior. And another is the feeling of commitment and duty, which I believe my father felt strongly.

This isn't a right or wrong thing- to stay or leave are both complicated decisions. Whatever you decide, looking at your reasons may be informative.

[LifewithEase]

I think you're spot on. My uBPDw always needs to have someone to be angry at (generally, its me. I'm the safest), there is never a day when anything is good enough.

I also see a pattern when she is upset at someone else, she is wonderful to me. Really wonderful.

I'll also share something that guided me before I discovered BPD and this board:

She creates chaos in order to create control.

Hmm.  But is this triangle something that a pwBPD *needs* in order for life to function, and without it life (to them) cannot exist? 

I often feel like if there is no conflict (no antagonist) W will "invent" one or find one somewhere.  In her mind, life is impossible without this conflict.  She can go out to dinner, and everything is perfect, the food is great, the wait staff is awesome, it's not crowded, yet on the way home she will make some kind of comment about the odor of the soap in the bathroom being too strong or something else irrelevant.  It's almost like there has to be at least one thing wrong, otherwise life is just too uncomfortable/boring/untrustworthy, etc.

I am wondering if this stems from growing up with an unstable parent.  In that type of household, there is always something wrong, even if you don't know what it is yet - you are always waiting for it, anticipating it, looking for it.   

[Manic Miner]

From what I have read about relationships- what makes people stay is a certain combination of ways that they fit. If someone stays with a disordered person, it's because they too fit that situation, even if it's difficult for them.

Another is the "ego" boost of being the ONE who can save them. All others have failed, they must be inferior. And another is the feeling of commitment and duty, which I believe my father felt strongly.

No two relationships are alike, even if the similarity seems 99%.

I always suspected my W was 'odd' or 'strange' at times and a high-conflict personality. But in the first 10 years it wasn't extreme or frequent. When splitting did happen she apologized sincerely and really tried to fix herself afterwards, however inefficient or misguided that was. For many years she was trying to cure her anxiety with top-tier psychiatrist in our area. But psy never recognized the root cause of this issue. Though when I look back, it was still one of the healthiest times in our relationship, when my W was at the most stable.

For years, I wasn't her main target of blame. Others, like her parents or even my father - were. I was her comfort and was idolized for so long. I didn't enjoy the amount of idolization she gave me - I even told her many times - but would lie if I'd say I didn't appreciate having someone that loved me almost endlessly and unconditionally. Me being me, I did try so much to give that back and return the love. Alas, it was 'good enough' or 'good for a while' at best, but never fully appreciated or taken for granted.

Still, the good vastly outperformed the bad. And that's one of the key elements why we remained - and probably why other relationships with similar patterns remain. This has to be understood. In life, esp. when you are NOT facing big ugly issues (yet), you don't think or do things in a way of rationally saying to yourself 'ah yes, this is completely delusional, this is toxic, that is dysfunctional'. Life goes on, you see it as ups and downs, hardships of life, good and bad days. Further, there can be other real life issues you are focused on so PDs or traits of any kind don't steal the spotlight. At the end of the day, you receive more good than bad. The two of us did far more good together as a team.

Time passed and once she worked out with her parents (in a wrong, half-functional way) and I went no contact with my father, I hoped we could finally have some peace and work on ourselves. It heavily backfired instead. I was such a fool to ever share my own issues I had with him.
Whatever my father did, she saw me now as the extension of him and I was targeted as such. A mini father jr. in her eyes. Mind you, my father did absolutely nothing bad to her, but she perceived it differently due to her condition. It was also a time she "worked on" herself to the point of being more and more egocentric, manipulative, having less and less empathy, with high self-victimization.

Once she got me locked on her radar and saw me as a target, we came to what we are today - a separated couple that will likely divorce soon. Endless power games, who's better than whom, entitled motherhood, manipulations, distorted realities and almost total loss of trust. It was also a time I just couldn't take it anymore. The bad vastly outperformed the good.

So to answer the question of this thread, yes, the OP is correct. While NPDs need a narcissistic supply to flourish, BPDs need drama and targets of blame to get going.

[ForeverDad]

I always suspected my W was 'odd' or 'strange' at times and a high-conflict personality. But in the first 10 years it wasn't extreme or frequent. When splitting did happen...

MM, a question here.  Do you know what changed from the first decade to make the second decade worse?  Was there a trigger?

I have my own hint... you had a child.  Am I close?  You changed from being a spouse to a father.  Somehow that triggered a higher level of conflict.

My story... I had been married for over a decade.  Yes, there were increasing problems over the years, but they at least had a shred of hope they could be manageable.  Then I got the fool idea she would be happier if she had a child.  Then she could be more positive watching our child grow up and discover the joys of life.  Nice idea, right?  Um, not the reality!  Not when there were serious mental health issues.

Having children does not fix serious mental health issues, it just makes everything vastly more complicated, especially when trying to unwind a marriage or relationship.

My then-spouse always said the abuser in her childhood, her stepfather, came into her family when she was 3 years old.  Almost immediately after our son's birth, she pulled away from me emotionally.  As I look back, I now conclude that the change was her not viewing me as her husband but as a father.  I recall being compared to him (even though he had died years before) and falling short.  It went downhill from there.  And we did separate (and thereafter divorced) while our son was, yes, 3 years old.

[Manic Miner]

MM, a question here.  Do you know what changed from the first decade to make the second decade worse?  Was there a trigger?

I have my own hint... you had a child.  Am I close?  You changed from being a spouse to a father.  Somehow that triggered a higher level of conflict.

Thanks for sharing some insights to your story ForeverDad. I guess it's almost a relief when you can connect some dots in this mess, however sad it is. At least you know the cause and predicted the outcome.

I think you were close for my case. Our D and her special needs are surely part of the reason for our growing conflict, especially once D entered her pre-teen age, like 9 or 10y. My W handled her parenting way more normal and rational when D was small(er). Now she's almost obsessed with D, in a negative way. She sees her motherhood as sacred and entitled, far more than when our D was smaller and required more attention as a toddler or baby. In a sense, W is going backwards. Possibly because it's her vision of how a pre-teen, special needs parenting should look like, spiced with her FOO's input.
I'm almost considered a lesser parent and, as a male - cannot even comprehend the duties and sacrifices of women and mothers.

But the biggest part of our conflict, I think, is her father. He's a treated alcoholic that did numerous BS when she was young. Their family suffered a lot, her mother moved to another city with kids, they were very poor and her brother (also very troubled individual) runaway from home temporarily when they were young. W hated her father so much, even when he did nothing wrong in the present times. She was an avid and impulsive supporter of divorce before.

Then came my father. Totally the opposite, W admired him at first, but my father had his own issues, like numerous affairs, infidelities and several NPD traits (whether he is a true NPD is questionable - he does have quite a bit of empathy). I tried to hide that from her for a while, but it backfired, especially when my own issues with him surfaced. She was furious and mad, even though my father was always nice to W. Eventually, she connected me and him as the same. She started calling me a narcissistic person, totally making up her own stories and viewing me through the lenses of narcissism.

However, as D got older and W's parents started caring for D more, they kind of reconciled, even though they were as dysfunctional between themselves as before. It reached the point where W was much nicer, more caring and empathetic to them than to me. It was forbidden for me to say anything bad or negative about them.

W almost lost a lifelong drama supply - her parents. And now both my father and I are her projection, but since I went low-contact with my father, I'm the exclusive one. However, up to this day, I still hear insults when she splits, how my father is the worst piece of scum that ever lived on the planet Earth. She literally pulls him out of nowhere, even though she hasn't seen him for 2 years. She acts like he almost cheated on her. That man has 0% effect on her life in any possible way. If anything, he provided more financial support for us than her parents ever will.

W's probably deeply hurt by fathers and men. She's no feminist or a man hater, but her entitlement in parenting and motherhood comes from that area.

So yes, I guess it's similar to your life story, though with different cast and situations. In a way, our talk kind of cleared my thoughts about this, thanks.

[LifewithEase]

My uBPDw escalated considerably after the birth of our first child and many year's later when her father died, among other things.

Many of my uBPDw's behaviors were apparent earlier in our courtship. I, however, was unaware of BPD and it took years to put together the patterns.

A few rage, anxiety and isolation events that seems like outliners at the time are now standard issue for BPD. It was in 2019 that I was learned about BPD.

Four more big events seem to have escalated BPD:

- CoVID
- Me running my own business
- The death of her long estranged (by her) father
- The start of her significantly high powered job

Big life stressors pull BPD out and I don't see it receding.

[Turkish]

Musing here...

Those in close relationships tend to become avatars of internal pain projected. Targets. Our r/s really got weird after her father was caught in an affair and he had a decades long history. When my ex started openly disrespecting her mother after her mother didn't leave, despite all of the kids telling her that, I knew something had changed. She was also emotionally enmeshed with her mother which she told me later and realized in so many words.

When she was having fun with her beau while living with us, she told me that he had commented on her tendency to get angry over little things. I was happy that he was now a target. If she weren't still living with us for a few months I might have asked her what she thought about that.

I concluded that someone unable to deal with their own emptiness <auto fill made that it, but it fits!> emotions needs a validation target, even if negative.

[Couscous]

In the case of the teacher, I don't know what shame she is really avoiding.   She thinks the teacher is being critical of her kids and parenting, but I certainly don't see it that way.

Yes, she’s avoiding shame. You wouldn’t see it that way because you’re not a mother.

[who_knows11]

It seems well-known that pwBPD want to have someone else to blame.  But I am starting to think that a pwBPD *needs* an antagonist in order to function.  Almost like an instinct, or like a superhero who has no reason to exist without an archenemy. 

Yesterday, out of the blue, W started venting frustration about the kids' teacher.  The frustration seemed to stem from the teacher bringing some behavior issues to her attention.  This morning, she was complaining about how the kids always smell like perfume when they get home, implying that the teacher wears to much perfume.  It really makes no sense unless I understand that W somehow has made the teacher her competitor. 

W's dad was an antagonist in her life.  When he passed, she was lost, and I became more of an antagonist.  I actually think she *needs* to have antagonists for life to make sense.  I liken it to driving down a road and coming to a fork.  Unless one road can be labeled as "bad", she doesn't know which direction to go.   Non disordered people would use other information to decide what road to take, or know that either road is an acceptable choice.

Perhaps this is part of "black and white" thinking?  It seems like with my W that this is a maladaptive survival instinct left over from early childhood.  She grew up with her mom and dad being antagonists - standing in the way of her happiness.  Without that conflict, she does not know how to be happy, or what "happy" even is, because "happy" is only in relation to what she is currently labeling as "bad".  Happiness does not seem to be universal to her. 

 I previously thought that W simply blames others to avoid shame.  But is that just assigning a more normal behavior to a disordered person?  Nearly everyone does this at some point, so am I just assuming that my W is doing the same?  In the case of the teacher, I don't know what shame she is really avoiding.   She thinks the teacher is being critical of her kids and parenting, but I certainly don't see it that way.  I simply see it as a teacher being a good teacher and communicating with a parent.  I think the teacher has already been labeled as an antagonist in W's mind because she has to as a natural instinct.  Now, anything the teacher says/does is viewed through that lens.  In other words, it is impossible for her to be friends with the teacher because W needs to have her as a competitor because to her that is the only way life makes sense. 

Thoughts?

I relate to this so much.  My uBPDw seems the same way.  In every major aspect of her life (marriage, work, family, in laws, church) she has seemingly one person that she says has ruined that aspect for her.  Myself in the marriage, a specific manager at work, her grandmother and grandfather in her family, my dad in my family and one in particular person in our church.  It is much more intense with me and the person at work because those are the two most significant parts of her life.  I am accused of being just like the person at work, just like her grandfather who she cut ties with, and just like every other singled out individual.  She never considers that she might actually be the common denominator.  She has actually made statements before like, "things are just too good right now so I know something bad is about to happen."

Much like the other aspect of this thread, she too finds little things to nitpick in all situations.  "I liked the food but I mean it wasn't really as fancy as it was made out to be."  Or "I really like so and so." Just when you think shes going to leave it at that she goes on with "I mean they aren't what they make themselves out to be but I like em.  I could never be like that but I know everybody is different.  I like them though."  It's become comical to me.  It's like she literally can't help herself

[Couscous]

Much like the other aspect of this thread, she too finds little things to nitpick in all situations.  "I liked the food but I mean it wasn't really as fancy as it was made out to be."  Or "I really like so and so." Just when you think shes going to leave it at that she goes on with "I mean they aren't what they make themselves out to be but I like em.  I could never be like that but I know everybody is different.  I like them though."  It's become comical to me.  It's like she literally can't help herself

She’s playing a very common psychological game, known as Blemish.

Blemish

Theme:
 Fault finding

Purpose:
 To keep everyone, including oneself, looking in the other direction.

Roles:
 Victim (V), Persecutor (P) (often switching to Rescuer).

Blemish is commonly played from the Persecutor (P) by persons who have adopted a secondary existential stance of arrogance (I'm better) in order to compensate for a depressive (I'm not-OK) primary position. By constantly pointing the finger at the shortcomings, real or imagined, of others, she avoids the spotlight and having to examine her own feelings of inadequacy. This person rarely ever gives straight compliments or genuine praise. There always follows the conditional modifier: "That is really quite nice, except . . . " Blemish players never feel comfortable around someone until they locate a chink in their armor, some convenient handle for fault finding. There is often a role switch, with P shifting to Rescuer mode - "I hope you don't mind honest criticism . . . I'm only trying to help you . . . " P may be so socially inept that a round of Blemish is, sadly, the only type of opening line she knows. She may show great ingenuity in the inventing of a blemish in order to follow it up with, "but that's OK, even I do that myself sometimes . . . let me show you how I deal with it . . . ," attempting to initiate a twisted form of closeness.

Chronic Blemish players are universally annoying to almost anyone without a strong uncompensated inferiority/ masochism streak. Consequently, their circle of friends is often severely limited, and relationships are generally seriously dysfunctional, mutually parasitic, power paradigms.

Payoffs
 include the vindication of arrogance, keeping the conscience blind, and avoiding the effort to improve, since it is "they" who have the problems, not I.

Antithesis
These people will come under professional scrutiny during relationship therapy. Confrontation with the chronic fault finding and conditional praise is a start. Efforts should be aimed at helping the person discover/disclose the nature of the barrier to intimacy and of the not-OK in the Child.

[Outdorenthusiast]

It's called the Karpman Triangle. The pwBPD prefers victim position. To do that, they need a Persecutor ( Antagonist ) and they need a Rescuer (You).

NotWendy - It just clicked for me that this triangle can be multi-faceted!  I have often wondered why uBPDw is always stressed about something and putting herself in a victim role.  Doesn’t matter if it is real stress, or manufactured stress.  I always thought that the triangle had to be people!  In fact it can also be events or situations, but she wants me in the rescue role.  “Light bulb

[Couscous]

…but she wants me in the rescue role.  “Light bulb

There can be no Victims without Rescuers.

Drama triangle dynamics are a symptom of the problem and are not the problem itself. And for codependents, Rescuer is more than just a role, it’s a pretty much a personality trait.

After watching this short video of the drama triangle in action, my initial reaction was, “That was Rescuing? What else was she supposed to say.” I initially couldn’t even come up with a non-rescuing response.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r0b5oCWSBqU

[who_knows11]

She’s playing a very common psychological game, known as Blemish.

Blemish

Theme:
 Fault finding

Purpose:
 To keep everyone, including oneself, looking in the other direction.

Roles:
 Victim (V), Persecutor (P) (often switching to Rescuer).

Blemish is commonly played from the Persecutor (P) by persons who have adopted a secondary existential stance of arrogance (I'm better) in order to compensate for a depressive (I'm not-OK) primary position. By constantly pointing the finger at the shortcomings, real or imagined, of others, she avoids the spotlight and having to examine her own feelings of inadequacy. This person rarely ever gives straight compliments or genuine praise. There always follows the conditional modifier: "That is really quite nice, except . . . " Blemish players never feel comfortable around someone until they locate a chink in their armor, some convenient handle for fault finding. There is often a role switch, with P shifting to Rescuer mode - "I hope you don't mind honest criticism . . . I'm only trying to help you . . . " P may be so socially inept that a round of Blemish is, sadly, the only type of opening line she knows. She may show great ingenuity in the inventing of a blemish in order to follow it up with, "but that's OK, even I do that myself sometimes . . . let me show you how I deal with it . . . ," attempting to initiate a twisted form of closeness.

Chronic Blemish players are universally annoying to almost anyone without a strong uncompensated inferiority/ masochism streak. Consequently, their circle of friends is often severely limited, and relationships are generally seriously dysfunctional, mutually parasitic, power paradigms.

Payoffs
 include the vindication of arrogance, keeping the conscience blind, and avoiding the effort to improve, since it is "they" who have the problems, not I.

Antithesis
These people will come under professional scrutiny during relationship therapy. Confrontation with the chronic fault finding and conditional praise is a start. Efforts should be aimed at helping the person discover/disclose the nature of the barrier to intimacy and of the not-OK in the Child.

Wow, this was enlightening.  I have always said to myself that it seems like she thinks she has to fix every problem she points out in people or things.  For her it usually manifests in some type of passive aggressive dialogue.  When telling me about doing it to someone else she'll say things like she just knew something needed to be said so that they could be made aware that she knew what was happening.  So that maybe they would realize what they were doing.  However, if anyone ever did this with her it really upsets her.  To see it explained as this game makes so much sense to me.  It feels like she sees this action as justified because she will say that she knows she has faults to and she just hopes to be able to make things better for everyone.

I have no idea if this is related or not, but the phrase I hate the most from her is "you know what I mean?"  Anytime she is "venting" about someone or some thing, this phrase will inevitably appear soon after she finishes the criticism.  Wanting me to validate that she is right.  Criticize, criticize, criticize, and then "you know what I mean?"  I have reached the point now where a lot of the time I will respond with, "no, I'm not sure what you mean."  She doesn't necessarily like that, but it isn't always a terrible reaction to it

[Couscous]

Anytime she is "venting" about someone or some thing, this phrase will inevitably appear soon after she finishes the criticism.  Wanting me to validate that she is right.  Criticize, criticize, criticize, and then "you know what I mean?"  I have reached the point now where a lot of the time I will respond with, "no, I'm not sure what you mean." 

You know, you are not obliged to listen to her vent and it just serves to reinforce her habit, and by listening you are actually allowing her to play the game. Of course, if this has been a well established pattern in your relationship, if you stop listening she will likely accuse you of being "unsupportive", or "uncaring'', and possibly even of being "heartless" in order to re-establish the old dynamic. You can validate her feelings and sympathize with her about how upsetting it must be for her that you are no longer going to be available to provide this service for her, but that you are no longer willing to do this for her, but that you would be quite happy to talk about another subject, or watch a show with her, etc. 

[who_knows11]

You know, you are not obliged to listen to her vent and it just serves to reinforce her habit, and by listening you are actually allowing her to play the game. Of course, if this has been a well established pattern in your relationship, if you stop listening she will likely accuse you of being "unsupportive", or "uncaring'', and possibly even of being "heartless" in order to re-establish the old dynamic. You can validate her feelings and sympathize with her about how upsetting it must be for her that you are no longer going to be available to provide this service for her, but that you are no longer willing to do this for her, but that you would be quite happy to talk about another subject, or watch a show with her, etc. 

Oddly enough, I've been getting called "unsupportive, uncaring, emotionally unavailable" and as many related names as you may can think of all along, even while listening.  Maybe it's because she knows I'm not actually listening at this point.  I'm just standing there as she talks, sometimes for an hour or longer.  I'm out of energy and also just don't know what to do.  If I cut her off and say I'm not listening anymore I would be concerned about how far that would escalate things.  I'm just tired of hearing it all the time.  Even in the instances where she is right about whoever she is talking about I can't stand to hear it or try to be supportive because I hear it so much.  Sort of like the boy who cried wolf I guess.  I'm sure I'm not handling it the best way possible, but I'm out of energy and ideas.

[Manic Miner]

Oddly enough, I've been getting called "unsupportive, uncaring, emotionally unavailable" and as many related names as you may can think of all along, even while listening.  Maybe it's because she knows I'm not actually listening at this point.  I'm just standing there as she talks, sometimes for an hour or longer.  I'm out of energy and also just don't know what to do.  If I cut her off and say I'm not listening anymore I would be concerned about how far that would escalate things.  I'm just tired of hearing it all the time.  Even in the instances where she is right about whoever she is talking about I can't stand to hear it or try to be supportive because I hear it so much.  Sort of like the boy who cried wolf I guess.  I'm sure I'm not handling it the best way possible, but I'm out of energy and ideas.

If there's anything that I have learned out from this is that I maxed the level of diplomacy. Being an INFP, a truth seeker that feels bad to be at odds with anyone, but values honesty and freedom above else - that was always natural for me, but this took it through the roof and dare I say it, even exploited much. Anyhow, I have learned to be 'functional' and to 'see broader image' rather than 'be right' or ego-driven. It took me a while to reach that level.
 
When I'm talking to normal people, I'm surprised how easily we can reach something without a tug-of-war, whatsoever. They even comment how mild and kind I am, something my W considered 'fake and for a show' lately, probably because she saw herself that way.

That being said, you cannot invest more energy if you are depleted. It's perfectly normal for wanting more time for yourself and your peace of mind. Your body is issuing red alert and shutting down tired parts to save the energy.

All I can suggest, if it's possible, try to be empathetic and kind and say - 'dear, I had a rough day, I hear you have so much to say and I'm really tired, I need to take a nap/do something, we'll talk about later'. Then 'later' never comes or you do it at your own pace, when your energy is more charged.
If you think that discussion cannot be interrupted or postponed, try to listen with 'one ear' - you are there, but not investing much thought. 'Yeah, hmm interesting, right' and all sorts of variants with occasional 'No! Can't be! Really? Oh.'

And finally, don't take it all for granted - we are not machines, usually all people want is to vent or chat with someone. Especially pwBPD. Let her talk and don't take it personally or seriously, but be mindful about the time as well - you don't want to spend the whole day in this.

[who_knows11]

If there's anything that I have learned out from this is that I maxed the level of diplomacy. Being an INFP, a truth seeker that feels bad to be at odds with anyone, but values honesty and freedom above else - that was always natural for me, but this took it through the roof and dare I say it, even exploited much. Anyhow, I have learned to be 'functional' and to 'see broader image' rather than 'be right' or ego-driven. It took me a while to reach that level.
 
When I'm talking to normal people, I'm surprised how easily we can reach something without a tug-of-war, whatsoever. They even comment how mild and kind I am, something my W considered 'fake and for a show' lately, probably because she saw herself that way.

That being said, you cannot invest more energy if you are depleted. It's perfectly normal for wanting more time for yourself and your peace of mind. Your body is issuing red alert and shutting down tired parts to save the energy.

All I can suggest, if it's possible, try to be empathetic and kind and say - 'dear, I had a rough day, I hear you have so much to say and I'm really tired, I need to take a nap/do something, we'll talk about later'. Then 'later' never comes or you do it at your own pace, when your energy is more charged.
If you think that discussion cannot be interrupted or postponed, try to listen with 'one ear' - you are there, but not investing much thought. 'Yeah, hmm interesting, right' and all sorts of variants with occasional 'No! Can't be! Really? Oh.'

And finally, don't take it all for granted - we are not machines, usually all people want is to vent or chat with someone. Especially pwBPD. Let her talk and don't take it personally or seriously, but be mindful about the time as well - you don't want to spend the whole day in this.

I am an INTP myself so all of this hits home.  I have no problem not taking things personally or seriously.  I feel the truth seeking parts of it for sure.  The point I've gotten to is just that while I have no care for being right in our arguments or proving to her that she is misunderstanding or whatever it might be, I expect to have the same given to me in return.  It's ok with me that she holds or believes a different truth than me, all I want is for her to be ok with the fact that I hold a different one from.  That can be paradoxical in itself.  If her truth is that she doesn't have to be ok with the fact that I don't hold the same truth as her, then I am ok with that being her truth.  However, my expectation will never be met in that case because she will never be ok with my truths being different from hers.  It's literally a no win situation.  As a truth seeker I know that the only win-win that would apply to both of us seems to be ending the relationship.  I just haven't reached a point of wanting to accept that as the only option yet.  This is quite the dilemma for my personality

As far as trying the options you suggested, I feel like I have tried both.  If I try to postpone the conversation she says I just don't care or something about things always having to be on my timeline.  That is followed by accusations of being a narcissist or selfish.  Many times I will just nod and say "hmm mmm."  She usually sees through it.  She'll say all you ever do is just say hmm mmm but you don't actually care.  You just wanna get me to stop talking

[Manic Miner]

I am an INTP myself so all of this hits home.  I have no problem not taking things personally or seriously.  I feel the truth seeking parts of it for sure.  The point I've gotten to is just that while I have no care for being right in our arguments or proving to her that she is misunderstanding or whatever it might be, I expect to have the same given to me in return.  It's ok with me that she holds or believes a different truth than me, all I want is for her to be ok with the fact that I hold a different one from.  That can be paradoxical in itself.

That's what they are. I'm afraid, and would like to be proven wrong however - there is no 'cure' for the way they behave, once they start engaging. I guess the greatest cure is prevention. I personally failed to see that in advance. But once those dysfunctional behaviour patterns are set in motion, they are very hard to stop, due to lack of self-regulation, introspection and overwhelming feel of inadequacy.

If I could return the time, I'd definitely set myself far more firmly, with greater boundaries. I always considered us as two individuals, more or less equal. I thought deep and honest talks were the cure for any conflict. My value for freedom was so great that I always emphasized that what was there for me, she should also have and vice versa.

But when you are with mentally ill person, she or he never sees that as 'enough' or 'fair' but rather play power games all the time and think there's some kind of a twist behind the scenes, with you being almost a villain that is plotting their downfall. They project their fragile and scared inner core. And you have to constantly remind and give fair examples of your past, to soothe them that you mean no harm. For now.

I do think, however, people that made strong but fair boundaries, before the loss of trust and madness kicking in a full force, could perhaps live together and have a healthy enough relationship.

As far as trying the options you suggested, I feel like I have tried both.  If I try to postpone the conversation she says I just don't care or something about things always having to be on my timeline.  That is followed by accusations of being a narcissist or selfish.  Many times I will just nod and say "hmm mmm."  She usually sees through it.  She'll say all you ever do is just say hmm mmm but you don't actually care.  You just wanna get me to stop talking

What I told you in my last post was something that could possibly help you go through this, without arguing or wasting energy on dysfunctional behaviour. But personally, I hate small talk or pointless discussions where you cannot say anything meaningful as you know it would either provoke endless arguing or trigger some unneeded response. I learned to stay clear of that.

On the other hand, you aren't obliged to stay there and listen anyone vent or accuse you of being selfish. If you pull the plug, there will be a tremendous response on her side, but maybe that's what is needed to get better. My T once said, any change is better than staying still in a dysfunctional behaviour. At least it could potentially get better after getting worse. Especially if you know that you did the right thing, so it could pave the road for something more healthy. You will feel better that you made it on your own too.

For the last 2 years, my relation to W has been exactly that. Extreme small talk, superficiality. Even when we did have meaningful discussions and I thought this was it, finally made some compromises and understandings, it was only for that moment. For a month at best. I have learned that BPDs don't have a healthy relation to past or future, they have only now. So whatever pact you made today, tomorrow it may no longer exist or be valid if they feel different. It was so frustrating for me that I couldn't take it anymore. As you said - she demanded so much, but couldn't even return the favour, let alone do something more. What was meant for me, wasn't for her. Power games and excuses was something she excelled at. We split in July 2022, though still not divorced.

[who_knows11]

That's what they are. I'm afraid, and would like to be proven wrong however - there is no 'cure' for the way they behave, once they start engaging. I guess the greatest cure is prevention. I personally failed to see that in advance. But once those dysfunctional behaviour patterns are set in motion, they are very hard to stop, due to lack of self-regulation, introspection and overwhelming feel of inadequacy.

If I could return the time, I'd definitely set myself far more firmly, with greater boundaries. I always considered us as two individuals, more or less equal. I thought deep and honest talks were the cure for any conflict. My value for freedom was so great that I always emphasized that what was there for me, she should also have and vice versa.

But when you are with mentally ill person, she or he never sees that as 'enough' or 'fair' but rather play power games all the time and think there's some kind of a twist behind the scenes, with you being almost a villain that is plotting their downfall. They project their fragile and scared inner core. And you have to constantly remind and give fair examples of your past, to soothe them that you mean no harm. For now.

I do think, however, people that made strong but fair boundaries, before the loss of trust and madness kicking in a full force, could perhaps live together and have a healthy enough relationship.

What I told you in my last post was something that could possibly help you go through this, without arguing or wasting energy on dysfunctional behaviour. But personally, I hate small talk or pointless discussions where you cannot say anything meaningful as you know it would either provoke endless arguing or trigger some unneeded response. I learned to stay clear of that.

On the other hand, you aren't obliged to stay there and listen anyone vent or accuse you of being selfish. If you pull the plug, there will be a tremendous response on her side, but maybe that's what is needed to get better. My T once said, any change is better than staying still in a dysfunctional behaviour. At least it could potentially get better after getting worse. Especially if you know that you did the right thing, so it could pave the road for something more healthy. You will feel better that you made it on your own too.

For the last 2 years, my relation to W has been exactly that. Extreme small talk, superficiality. Even when we did have meaningful discussions and I thought this was it, finally made some compromises and understandings, it was only for that moment. For a month at best. I have learned that BPDs don't have a healthy relation to past or future, they have only now. So whatever pact you made today, tomorrow it may no longer exist or be valid if they feel different. It was so frustrating for me that I couldn't take it anymore. As you said - she demanded so much, but couldn't even return the favour, let alone do something more. What was meant for me, wasn't for her. Power games and excuses was something she excelled at. We split in July 2022, though still not divorced.

I definitely know I made a mistake by not having boundaries in the beginning.  I tried to pacify everything and that was a mistake.  I feel that a lot of the reason for the accelerated problems now is the establishment of the boundaries over the last year or so because you are right, you can't just sit still in the dysfunction.  If I had set them early in the relationship maybe we wouldn't be here.  She just hid it so well in the beginning.  Although if I'm being honest there were probably signs looking back now.  Did you have that experience as well or did you know from the onset of the relationship?

I'm with you on the small talk also.  I hate pleasantries I don't even wanna do it with people who aren't BPD.   

[Couscous]

I definitely know I made a mistake by not having boundaries in the beginning.  I tried to pacify everything and that was a mistake. 

Don’t be so quick to blame yourself. It might not have been a mistake at all; it might have been the only option you had if you wanted to preserve the relationship.

Since she is willing to resort to verbal abuse in response to your attempts at setting boundaries right now, that to me is a clue that she would not have responded well even in the early stages of your relationship. 

[who_knows11]

Don’t be so quick to blame yourself. It might not have been a mistake at all; it might have been the only option you had if you wanted to preserve the relationship.

Since she is willing to resort to verbal abuse in response to your attempts at setting boundaries right now, that to me is a clue that she would not have responded well even in the early stages of your relationship. 

You are right.  And I guess what I meant was probably more aimed at how we would not have reached this point one way or another.  Either it would have made things better, unlikely, or the problems would have manifested earlier and we could have made a decision then.  Although, honestly there is no mistake.  I'd go through all of it again to have our two boys

[Manic Miner]

Don’t be so quick to blame yourself. It might not have been a mistake at all; it might have been the only option you had if you wanted to preserve the relationship.

I won't talk on his behalf, but I think nobody was taking a 'blame' here. We were only thinking what could have been better from this stance. Healthy and fair boundaries are good for any human relationship. But are vital for BPD. And I let in so much that I began calling for help when the water was entering my nostrils.
I had strong boundaries for myself alone, but very poor regarding us and what she could or couldn't do.

Since she is willing to resort to verbal abuse in response to your attempts at setting boundaries right now, that to me is a clue that she would not have responded well even in the early stages of your relationship.  

It depends. When people are still new in their relationships and trust is still strong, there is much more you can do than when it's deteriorated and out of control. You can't judge stuff now and then. Even for healthy people - they are different and less cooperative at times of divorce compared to past times.

Did you have that experience as well or did you know from the onset of the relationship?

Well, she always thought I didn't love her enough or would go away. But at that time it was sort of cute, even feminine in a way, the way she did it. It was innocent and didn't drain me.
But first time I really saw something odd was actually 8 years deep in our relationship. She acted crazy and I was genuinely afraid. I first thought she was goofing, making some nasty comments and accusations, but no, she was for real.
So I could say she was covert or really tried to control herself. She suffered anxieties and did go to her psychiatrist for several years.
At those times it was almost a taboo to have your own psychiatrist. But she did it, she was smart and tried to be as rational as possible. She was very young too, in her early 20's.
She really tried her best to overcome her 'dark side', what she called. I never saw it was anything bigger than anxiety and panic attacks. But it was, the root was probably coming from BPD all along.

With all said and done, I feel sad for her. She can be mean and manipulative like hell, but deep down I still see her as cheerful young girl, without prejudices and full of life, like she used to be. She just caved in to her demons. I truly hope she will find strength to get back on more healthier tracks.