Is friendship possible, Is it even healthy to want an ongoing relationship?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi everyone,

It's now been about 1.5 years since I finally left a 25-year marriage. (Legit, half of my life, spent with an undiagnosed/improperly diagnosed - very textbook BPD/N spouse.) I've been in counseling for the entire time. I love my new separate home and have no interest in pursuing any relationship - nor being pursued (which I've said to him - but I don't think he got that).

At first it was NC, then, I allowed a brief lunch or meal or phone call here and there, and I feel so damn conflicted. We're in limited contact, like 1x month or so I may agree to talk or go for a meal with him - but he is upset that I won't let him drive me to/from - I feel safer taking my own car.

I've never "cut anyone" out of my life before. Despite him pleading that he's a totally changed man and would give anything to be able to prove it to me - I just don't feel the same. I love him and I always will care about what happens to him, and like to dream that we could still be there for each other, if needed, but just as friends.

I feel like I need to "cut the cord," because it's unfair to lead him to think that there is anything but a friendship I'm willing to entertain.

I think he truly believes he can win me back, though I've been clear that I don't see that happening. He says he couldn't ever be a "friend" (pack up and move cross country even, bc too much around here reminds him of "us.")...he has 2 friends, and they are the longest he's ever been able to maintain. But, he continues to ask me out, to let me "see" the "new" person he's become, etc.

So, I feel bad on that - like, who am I to deny another person a second chance. But, then again, I gave him half of my life and was almost destroyed.

So I suppose I'm just postponing things, still wanting his companionship (because as a friend, of course, he'll always be the "good guy" bc if he gets nasty, angry, or aggressive, I'd be lost forever)...but, I can't ever imagine an "intimate" relationship with him...

Is it possible to maintain a friendship, and is even healthy to feel like it's possible, and why would I feel like I'd want to remain friends?

Just a new, strange stage/phase in all of this process...

Any thoughts, ideas, similar thoughts?

Thanks!

~Gemmie 

[Gemmie]

Hi everyone,

It's now been about 1.5 years since I finally left a 25-year marriage. (Legit, half of my life, spent with an undiagnosed/improperly diagnosed - very textbook BPD/N spouse.) I've been in counseling for the entire time. I love my new separate home and have no interest in pursuing any relationship - nor being pursued (which I've said to him - but I don't think he got that).

At first it was NC, then, I allowed a brief lunch or meal or phone call here and there, and I feel so damn conflicted. We're in limited contact, like 1x month or so I may agree to talk or go for a meal with him - but he is upset that I won't let him drive me to/from - I feel safer taking my own car.

I've never "cut anyone" out of my life before. Despite him pleading that he's a totally changed man and would give anything to be able to prove it to me - I just don't feel the same. I love him and I always will care about what happens to him, and like to dream that we could still be there for each other, if needed, but just as friends.

I feel like I need to "cut the cord," because it's unfair to lead him to think that there is anything but a friendship I'm willing to entertain.

I think he truly believes he can win me back, though I've been clear that I don't see that happening. He says he couldn't ever be a "friend" (pack up and move cross country even, bc too much around here reminds him of "us.")...he has 2 friends, and they are the longest he's ever been able to maintain. But, he continues to ask me out, to let me "see" the "new" person he's become, etc.

So, I feel bad on that - like, who am I to deny another person a second chance. But, then again, I gave him half of my life and was almost destroyed.

So I suppose I'm just postponing things, still wanting his companionship (because as a friend, of course, he'll always be the "good guy" bc if he gets nasty, angry, or aggressive, I'd be lost forever)...but, I can't ever imagine an "intimate" relationship with him...

Is it possible to maintain a friendship, and is even healthy to feel like it's possible, and why would I feel like I'd want to remain friends?

Just a new, strange stage/phase in all of this process...

Any thoughts, ideas, similar thoughts?

Thanks!

~Gemmie 

[Gutt3rSnipe]

Has he been receiving consistent Psychotherapy for his bpd? If he hasn’t been then it’s almost guaranteed he hasn’t really changed. He needs to be in therapy badly as bpd is a serious disorder that can cause a lot of suffering (As I’m sure you already know).

His BPD aside, to answer your “only friends” question. Speaking from personal experience, as long as he still has those romantic feelings for you it would be difficult for him to truly just be your friend. I’m trying right now to just be my ex’s friend even though I still have feelings for her. It’s been extremely hard for me. Even though I say I’m just her friend I still do secretly want to win her back. Of course everyone is different, so your ex husband might do better than I’ve been doing in that department. If you do decide to befriend him, then I’d prepare yourself for him trying to win you back romantically, because he probably will.

[MeandThee29]

Has he been receiving consistent Psychotherapy for his bpd? If he hasn’t been then it’s almost guaranteed he hasn’t really changed. He needs to be in therapy badly as bpd is a serious disorder that can cause a lot of suffering (As I’m sure you already know).

His BPD aside, to answer your “only friends” question. Speaking from personal experience, as long as he still has those romantic feelings for you it would be difficult for him to truly just be your friend.

I couldn't agree more.

From what you said, you are a "no-go" on the romantic side, but he is "hoping." Frankly, even apart from BPD, I wouldn't pursue a friendship with someone like that in most cases. I will do "let's be friends and see," but I'm not a fan of being "just friends" with someone who wants romance. It's too awkward.

Keep in mind that many people with BPD will do better when they are away from you for a time. Then they think because they aren't being triggered like they were, that they are better. "Starting over" doesn't mean "all better." The old saying, "wherever you go, there you are" applies. Unless there's truly been a lot of therapy over a long period of time, they still have all of the same problems. If they step into the dynamic with you again, they will likely get triggered and be just as rough on you as always.

I'm a bit older and frankly jaded, but I'm not friends with people who hurt me and don't work to fix things, period. That type of person is pushed out to the edge of my life, if I have any contact with them at all.  

[SinisterComplex]

This is a situation where pulling the chord is the best option and it is in your best interest. Change your perspective though. You are not cutting someone out of your life. You are attaching a negative there when from your perspective it is not negative at all. You just want to live in peace and want the best for yourself and for your ex. However, in order to achieve that last goal, you have to care and love, etc from a distance.

Whatever you decide to do just make sure it is something YOU WANT to do. The ball is strictly in your court. You are responsible for you and your own feelings just as your ex is for his. No reason to think about it beyond that.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Gemmie]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Sadly, no, I don't believe he has done any "real" counseling. He attended like 2 sessions and tapped out. He's very vague, so I don't believe he has. He believes (I think) that he IS DIFFERENT NOW.

But - that was a very eye-opening comment, MeandThee, that without our particular "engagements" (codependent tendencies and trauma bond), I hadn't considered that when he's put back in that element that he'd simply trigger and revert. At which point, I would feel SO utterly defeated - like, "I should've known."

I appreciate all your comments that all spoke firmly that it IS better for me to not entertain/fantasize that we can remain close friends, but that's all.

It's going to keep me "attached" to him, and not fully free to try to live my own life...

I appreciate it. Such an odd process - especially after such a long term relationship. So, I suppose for now, I will just try to remain more distant and ease back into NC.

I know, though, because I haven't filed divorce papers, I'll still have to have conversations with him about the marital home, etc. Just have to try to be "professional" and "cordial" and not give him any false signs of "hope."

I just pray that when I do file, and he realizes I can't come back, he doesn't change tactics from "honeymooning/courting" to "homicidal/nothing to lose."

ONE DAY AT A TIME, RIGHT? 

[MeandThee29]

Glad to help.

I do think that for most of us, emotional distance is best. If he hasn't made a lot of effort to work on things, you will indeed get more of the same over time. It's a deep, repetitive pattern they aren't entirely aware of. My ex would sometimes be quite demanding that he had changed when "therapy" involved largely walking on the beach alone for hours at a time. No guidance from a professional, no practice and discussion with me, just BETTER. I didn't believe it.

He also claimed that the divorce would be "quick and easy," but got all triggered and crazy when he wasn't getting his way in the proceedings. When his attorney wasn't constantly available, he got even worse and began losing it mentally, scaring his attorney. We don't know if he did it, but there were multiple times that his attorney told mine that he was considering calling the police where my ex lived (another state) for a mental wellness check.

We got it done, but I had no doubt when it was all over (over two years with the attorneys involved) that he was NOT better at all. All we were dividing were retirement assets and cars, at it's core. Yes, too long for that.

[SaltyDawg]

I appreciate it. Such an odd process - especially after such a long term relationship. So, I suppose for now, I will just try to remain more distant and ease back into NC.

I know, though, because I haven't filed divorce papers, I'll still have to have conversations with him about the marital home, etc. Just have to try to be "professional" and "cordial" and not give him any false signs of "hope."

I just pray that when I do file, and he realizes I can't come back, he doesn't change tactics from "honeymooning/courting" to "homicidal/nothing to lose."

  Nothing about being BPD is logical.  Since this thought has crossed your mind, either consciously or subconsciously, you think this is a possibility and he might be capable of such behavior along with you driving separately as you feel safer to do so which is another for me!

Therefore, you must "Hope and pray for the best; however, you must also plan for the worst".

Please review https://bpdfamily.com/discussions/search-info4.htm since you have given two indications that this is a possibility, so you should plan for it.

[Gemmie]

Thanks, Dawg.

It is pretty startling to have to consider these things. I appreciate your advice and my T has certainly uttered the same thoughts.

It's just so bizarre to be (now) at a more distanced perspective and have to consider that this person, who I gave 1/2 my life to, could - in my mind - even conceivably become so full of rage that they may seek to just give it all up to their Mr. Hyde and potentially do something like that.

I suppose it's frightening and reminds me why, after his final Rage and cutting his ring off, that I didn't cry or get scared - I thought, "OMG, I'm free. I don't have to be the bad guy and leave him." (he, of course, left the cut ring on the stovetop for like 4 days, so I'd see it, while doing a total "silent treatment.") Something in my just snapped awake...

I suppose that's why I'm doing this all so slowly. He does not do well with any sort of "suddenness" - so I'm trying to "acclimate" him to my absence and encourage him to try to live his own life...

Woof - what a messed up, twisted thing this is. And it's shocking to me how common it really is. Before I found this board, I knew these things happened, but most (including myself) wouldn't tell our loved ones what they were like "at home" vs. their "public personna."

So, yes, I will definitely keep this in mind. I am very actively in T and when the time comes for the divorce to begin, I do have a good support system to help me. I'm afraid of it, but I know it's going to need to happen!

Thanks to all who have made this board, who post on it, and share their experiences with others. It is a blessing to all of us to find a supportive community.

[capecodling]

He's very vague, so I don't believe he has. He believes (I think) that he IS DIFFERENT NOW.

This was the thing, more than anything else, that made me feel so off-balance with the borderline(s) I have been involved with.   Everything was always so vague.  Every conversation you were getting to know them, they could go on and on and still manage to say absolutely nothing.   It always left me feeling like something was so wrong, which when you are dealing with a borderline there is a lot wrong.

[SaltyDawg]

It's just so bizarre to be (now) at a more distanced perspective and have to consider that this person, who I gave 1/2 my life to, could - in my mind - even conceivably become so full of rage that they may seek to just give it all up to their Mr. Hyde and potentially do something like that.

The more threatened they become, the more irrational they become, that is my experience.  So, the closer you get to Divorce, the wilder the ride.  I know from my own codependency issues 'Divorce' triggers me, I can only imagine how the borderline feels whose emotions are several times more intense than my own.


I suppose that's why I'm doing this all so slowly. He does not do well with any sort of "suddenness" - so I'm trying to "acclimate" him to my absence and encourage him to try to live his own life...

Sounds like the 'seed planting tool'.  Calmly tell them what you are going to do, wait a while, and then do it.  This is my favorite tool, as it has the least amount of disruptive behavior.


So, yes, I will definitely keep this in mind. I am very actively in T and when the time comes for the divorce to begin, I do have a good support system to help me. I'm afraid of it, but I know it's going to need to happen.

I know my wife has telegraphed if Divorce were to happen, it would be 'high conflict', so plan accordingly.  Once the papers are served, be prepared for an escalation in his behavior.  Get a 'high conflict' attorney if you already don't have one, and meticulously plan every step of the way as it will likely be very difficult.

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey Gemmie,

I mean, you're always aloud to deny people a second chance, you never owe people your trust or friendship. Trust is earned based on behavior. This is what I am learning, it's like I feel a sense of duty, indebtedness and obligation to be peoples friends, and to trust them, and I don't. If people are hurting me all the time, that's not a person worth trusting.

I don't know who your ex is, or what he's done. It up to you, how far you trust him. You've been heavily invested in him for years, so it's hard to give up, even if you want to. I feel like, most Narcissists aren't very genuine at all, so this good guy routine is probably just that, a routine. I'm not saying they have no good in them, but most of that stuff, seems to be about pandering to people, and having a good image, not something genuine that you would see from a lot of people.

Sounds like you still want some companionship. I'd ask yourself if this is really the companion that'd be good for you though?

[Couscous]

You’re absolutely right — it’s not fair to him to try to be friends when it’s clear he’s looking for more. Cutting the cord is in fact, the kindest thing you can do.

I totally know where you’re coming from though and I get that having to be the “bad guy” is never fun. But I can assure you whatever initial feelings of false guilt you may feel for cutting the cord will not prove fatal, and will likely dissipate quickly.

You might find this meditation helpful: https://theadultchair.com/portfolio_page/a-guided-meditation-for-cleansing-relationships-and-cutting-cords/