Can't believe I'm here

[Snoopyluvr]

Hi all. First post. After 10 years of marriage, it has finally occurred to me my husband has BPD. I am a mental health nurse. This is embarassing. We are on marriage counsellor #6, and I think the counsellor is catching on as he really challenged my husband's distorted thinking at our last session. Afterwards, I wrote an email to the counsellor saying how despondent I felt, that I can't believe we are constantly revisiting the same issues, that we are completely chaotic and crisis ridden, and I don't even know what end is up anymore (it was more detailed than that, but that's the gist.) Afterwards, I read it, and thought "I just described what it must be like being married to a borderline." And then I started googling and found "Stop walking on eggshells." I'd never heard of unconventional borderlines, and it was the lack of suicidality and his career successes that made me think he couldn't be. Yet, I always knew his rages and distorted thinking were trauma based. He was sexually abused by his father from his earliest memories until he was old enough to lock doors/hide/avoid, and then the old perve was still trying to get at him and coerce him. Why WOULDN'T he have BPD? Anyways, I've told hubby my theory...he didn't outright deny but we're both keeping to ourselves this week, in our own worlds. He has always said to me "You think this is all me, don't you!" I've contributed for sure, as I react very badly to things that make zero sense- I'm an extremely logical person (yet I didn't figure this one out...feel kinda dumb for that.) We have counselling tomorrow. I am planning on telling the counsellor I am no longer willing to keep behaving as though this is a marital issue. Would love to hear from others in my situation. I love him dearly and I'll support him through treatment and learn to manage my own reactions, but the hard work lies with him and if he's not there yet, I have to leave the marriage. The crazy-making is affecting my own health. I'm 52, he's 56. I'd love to hear there is hope, would also love any tips anyone can give me on navigating this with hubby and counsellor. Thanks!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[SaltyDawg]

Welcome Snoopy Lover to the 'family'.

I have bitter-sweet news for you.  BPD can be treated, and if you are in the picture it is in the high 90% where it can be effectively managed.  However, like alcoholism, substance abuse, anorexia nervosa, and other mental health issues with similar pathologies it can be put into remission with a risk of it occurring again or relapsing.  Unlike substance abuse where the substance can be removed, unfortunately emotions cannot be removed, so it will be a more difficult recovery.

BPD cannot be managed with medications, so it is 100% therapy.  DBT is considered the gold standard for therapy for BPD; however, it should be combined with other types of therapy as well. 

I am a 55 yo codependent caretaker husband, to a 51 yo undiagnosed BPD wife, who also happens to be a snoopy lover.  She is ultra-high functioning, ( valedictorian smart ), who is a workaholic with an excellent moral compass - not your typical borderline; however, she definitely meets 8/9 of the criteria in the DSM V and probably 9/9 but the 9th symptom is still unverified, but circumstantial evidence shows otherwise.  I  also sense she has a mild form of OCPD as a comorbidity which masks the impulsive spending (still there, just not as much as a conventional borderline) with miserly spending habits. 

Circling back to treatment - I have figured out the following must be present in order for treatment to occur.

1.  The pwBPD (person with BPD) must be 'self aware,' the more conventional they are, the higher this chance.  Generally speaking those that are higher functioning cannot accept that they are self-aware.  My wife is partially self-aware, and she refuses to accept BPD, as the ancient DSM IV - based therapists tell her that she doesn't have it, even though she exhibits symptoms while in session and told her that it was not curable, some professionals indicate that it can be, but it is more like it can be treated and managed to the point of not being symptomatic.  One couple's T (therapist) said 'maybe' and promptly ghosted us when my wife's symptoms ramped up, as I suspect the therapy group does not want to label it as it would chase them away.  Once your husband is 'self aware'; then...

2.  ...this must also occur.  He must be willing to do the therapy to make himself better.  If he does this without you, it is around 60% effective in completing it; however, if you are in the picture it is in the high 90% range.  You cannot fix him; however, you can support him.  Only he can 'fix' himself, once he realizes this, then, and only then, progress can be made.

3.   While this one isn't a requirement, it will give you a pretty good indication of success.  He must have a strong moral compass.  In other words, if he has a propensity to have affairs, and/or use substances (beyond social use) there is a much smaller chance of success; however, if he is faithful  (both to a house of worship and more importantly you) and doesn't do illegal/immoral things there is a stronger chance of recovery to remission. 

Like all mental health conditions, they exist on a spectrum from very mild to very severe.  With your background, you have likely only experienced the severe and not the mild to moderate which you have already surmised for your husband.  Most of the time my wife presents as a mild high-functioning invisible borderline; however, when she becomes triggered, most of the time she will become a moderate conventional, and on rare occasions as a severe conventional where she has attempted suicide or performed domestic violence, about a dozen times in our almost 20 year marriage she has presented as severe, and we have been with each other for 22 years.  I have not known about BPD until June of this past year, and the OCPD component since August.

In addition to the "Stop Walking on Eggshells" [3rd edition] book that you mentioned, which has an excellent assessment tool in it, I will also suggest one other book for caretaker types that I found to describe my thoughts, feelings, and actions to a 99% accuracy this books is “Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life” by Margalis Fjelstad - I highly recommend reading this as it has effective strategies in managing your pwBPD and it will highlight your own reactive behaviors in the relationship which contribute to the 'high conflict' nature of these types of relationships.  Most importantly it has great tools for managing this type of relationship even though it is based on the DSM IV instead of the DSM V.

Word of though, if you haven't already told him of your thoughts of BPD, don't, as pwBPD will not readily accept this assessment.  However, if you have already broached the subject, when you talk about it, be as non-confrontational as you can with minimal criticism and use "I feel", "I would like", instead of "You are".  Use "I" and avoid "you", "but", "however", "whereas", etc.  It is okay to send an e-mail on the side to your T with your logic, and indicate you will talk about the symptoms without actually saying BPD.  However, if you have already talked about it, and he hasn't raged at you, you are ahead of most of here. 

Tips for couple's therapy, instead of writing them again, I will point you on what has worked in my situation:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355151
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=354759.msg13189734#msg13189734

If you have questions, please ask, I and others are here for each other.  This is very much like group therapy and discussing strategies that works and does not work with managing our pwBPD.

I will wrap this up, with my number one piece of advice, and that is to do 'self-care' - make sure it includes individual therapy, exercise outdoors [as simple as a walk], among other activities that you enjoy doing to recharge your spirit as the treatment for you and your husband is pretty much the same as the more severe ones that you are already familiar with your patients and their loved ones.

Take care.

Hi all. First post. After 10 years of marriage, it has finally occurred to me my husband has BPD. I am a mental health nurse. This is embarassing. We are on marriage counsellor #6, and I think the counsellor is catching on as he really challenged my husband's distorted thinking at our last session. Afterwards, I wrote an email to the counsellor saying how despondent I felt, that I can't believe we are constantly revisiting the same issues, that we are completely chaotic and crisis ridden, and I don't even know what end is up anymore (it was more detailed than that, but that's the gist.) Afterwards, I read it, and thought "I just described what it must be like being married to a borderline." And then I started googling and found "Stop walking on eggshells." I'd never heard of unconventional borderlines, and it was the lack of suicidality and his career successes that made me think he couldn't be. Yet, I always knew his rages and distorted thinking were trauma based. He was sexually abused by his father from his earliest memories until he was old enough to lock doors/hide/avoid, and then the old perve was still trying to get at him and coerce him. Why WOULDN'T he have BPD? Anyways, I've told hubby my theory...he didn't outright deny but we're both keeping to ourselves this week, in our own worlds. He has always said to me "You think this is all me, don't you!" I've contributed for sure, as I react very badly to things that make zero sense- I'm an extremely logical person (yet I didn't figure this one out...feel kinda dumb for that.) We have counselling tomorrow. I am planning on telling the counsellor I am no longer willing to keep behaving as though this is a marital issue. Would love to hear from others in my situation. I love him dearly and I'll support him through treatment and learn to manage my own reactions, but the hard work lies with him and if he's not there yet, I have to leave the marriage. The crazy-making is affecting my own health. I'm 52, he's 56. I'd love to hear there is hope, would also love any tips anyone can give me on navigating this with hubby and counsellor. Thanks!

[Cat Familiar]

I’m married to a high functioning BPD husband, and I, too, was gobsmacked when it became apparent to me that he was as dysfunctional as he is, since he presents so well in social and work situations.

As with most people with BPD (pwBPD), he is reluctant to acknowledge his part in initiating conflict, and tends to project and play the victim card.

He has on occasion sought therapy, but his focus was on his sisters’ lack of engagement with him, and I doubt that he was willing to do much introspection about his part in the dynamic.

I don’t know that BPD can be *cured* or *go into remission*, but anecdotally I’ve heard of some cases where that might be true. What I have noticed is that by utilizing the techniques found here (see Tools at the top of this page), that I no longer inadvertently trigger him, which I frequently did in the past.

I’ve had to learn a new way of talking with him. Previously I thought I was a good communicator and have been told that repeatedly by others. Yet, with him, my attempts at problem solving, soothing hurt feelings, and clarifying issues often backfired and I was at a loss as to what went wrong.

Now that I’ve incorporated many of these Tools, I seldom find myself in the midst of a BPD meltdown, and when I see the beginnings of one, I can extricate myself and give him time alone to self soothe. It’s been a remarkable change in our relationship, yet the BPD is still there, under the surface, just waiting for a trigger to erupt. Nowadays if and when it surfaces, I’m usually not the target.  

I had been a psychology major, enrolled in grad school thinking that I’d become a therapist, but circumstances intervened (fortunately) as in retrospect, I realized I was then too young, too naive, too self absorbed for this to be a good career path for me. As aware as I was about mental illness (and I had plenty of personal experience in addition to my studies—having had a mother with BPD and my first husband who was likely BPD/NPD/ASPD), it was truly a weird revelation when my current husband (who was *perfect* on paper) started acting psycho with me a couple of years after we were married. So I truly get how shocking this must be for you!

[Snoopyluvr]

Thank you SaltyDawg and Catfamiliar, both of your responses bring me some peace of mind. SaltyDawg, thanks for the hope; my husband has an extremely good moral compass- he's not a cheater and never has been, and there are zero substance abuse issues. In the last year, he has become much more introspective about his role in this and went to a counsellor for EMDR when he realized how reactive he is and how easily triggered. However, he also painted me as a narcissist, and as a provisional psychologist, she validated him to the nth degree and things got worse. After several sessions with our marriage counsellor, hubby sees how damaging that was and now knows he needs an experienced trauma therapist. However, he doesn't really know what to deal with in counselling as he doesn't have flashbacks/nightmares of the trauma, has forgiven his father (and the mother who failed to protect him). I am hoping our marriage counsellor can help guide us.

 SaltyDawg, can you be more specific and/or provide any links as to what my involvement is in therapy as a spouse of someone with BPD? Definitely want to support but am not sure how, other than managing my own reactions (which have been pretty unhelpful up to this point.)

Catfamiliar, thanks for telling me how you've managed to trigger your husband less; I will be sure to read those tools you mentioned. I am very triggering, due to my logical, no-nonsense personality. Interesting that the traits that have kept me safe from internalizing his distorted thinking have also been the traits that trigger him. He has admitted my steadfastness and integrity help him feel safe, but my self- assurance is very triggering. Quite the paradox to manage!

[Pook075]

Same story with me- my BPD wife is high functioning and would fall into the "quiet" category, which is much harder to diagnose and much more prevalent.  Good person, good heart, good intentions...and completely self destructive on the inside, filled with fear, doubt, and self-image issues.  I had zero idea it was there after 24 years of marriage, even though we have a kid with BPD as well and I was well-versed on the condition.  

They just presented in a completely different way- the kid was all rage and manipulation, the wife shut down and got depressed.  The two didn't look anything alike until you see the same patterns in completely different ways.

I just wanted to say that there is hope- my kid has turned the corner and doing fantastic.  My wife denies any possibility of having anything other than depression and anxiety, so she continues to silently suffer.  But you're out in front of this, already involved in therapy, and should have a great support group because of your profession.  

Don't give up!  And definitely don't blame yourself for not spotting it.  I have a genius-level IQ and I've lived BPD for over a decade with my kid.  I still had no clue what was going on with my wife until the lightbulb went off and our doctor confirmed.  Another thing I realized that even if I had figured it out a few years earlier, my broaching the subject would have blown everything up anyway.  So don't blame yourself here- none of us are perfect and we all made mistakes.  Regular couples forgive each other though and move on.  This is not a "you thing."

[Cat Familiar]

I am very triggering, due to my logical, no-nonsense personality. Interesting that the traits that have kept me safe from internalizing his distorted thinking have also been the traits that trigger him. He has admitted my steadfastness and integrity help him feel safe, but my self- assurance is very triggering. Quite the paradox to manage!

My husband also was assaulted by his malignant narcissist father. He didn’t remember an attack that happened when he was around 9, until he did neurofeedback at my suggestion, and remnants of a previous severe concussion were seen. When asked about it, he remembered his father slamming his head into the car door window, twice, and then vomiting and becoming incontinent, for which he was punished. His mother never sought treatment for him, as they were traveling in a foreign country and feared that his father would be arrested.

It wouldn’t surprise me if there were many other incidents of abuse that he’s forgotten/buried.

I’m uber-logical and he can equate that with being cold and uncaring, and frankly when he has pitched a fit about nonsense, I don’t care. Thankfully that almost never happens now—I know how to get out of the line of fire or not to fan the flames of discontent in the first place.

Yes, and my self assurance can also be triggering. He has often made comments about me being on my *high horse* and as an equestrian, I laugh and say my horse is a short Quarter Horse. When he has accused me of being self-centered or self-absorbed, I just smile and agree. Of course there’s a thread of truth there (isn’t that true of everybody?). How can you argue when someone is in agreement?

[Cat Familiar]

I agree there’s hope for behavioral change. One of the most promising therapies is DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, which is tailored for individuals who experience extreme emotions.

BPD is a pattern of thinking/feeling about oneself and the world. PwBPD tend to feel extreme shame and self loathing, which can be well-hidden under a veneer of social appropriateness, and with dysfunctional behavior which typically appears more frequently in the context of intimate relationships such as marriage and family.

The challenge of therapy is to create new patterns of thinking and responding, rather than the default mode of BPD. Encouraging mindfulness, regulating emotions, and distress tolerance are some of the skills learned through DBT.

Unlike other mental illnesses that can be treated pharmaceutically, cluster B disorders involve impulse control and emotional regulation and the therapeutic process necessitates developing new patterns of response, which takes time and commitment to change existing patterns that have developed over decades.

[kells76]

Hi Snoopyluvr, I want to join with the others in welcoming you here 

Quick thought to add to the other great perspectives here:

what my involvement is in therapy as a spouse of someone with BPD?

A couple of places you can start are:

-our article on supporting someone in therapy for BPD. It's written for supporting a child with BPD, but applies to supporting any family member.

-the NEA-BPD Family Connections program -- check out their description, as it may be a good fit for your needs. It's free, too.

Hope those are good starting places;

kells76

[SaltyDawg]

SaltyDawg, can you be more specific and/or provide any links as to what my involvement is in therapy as a spouse of someone with BPD? Definitely want to support but am not sure how, other than managing my own reactions (which have been pretty unhelpful up to this point.)

Kell's links were the ones that I was going to suggest in addition to https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0 has a bunch of good links too.

There is also a lot of good information on YouTube as well.  Dr. Fox [technical terms], Dr. Ramani [layman's terms], BorderlinerNotes, among others.  Just be careful if you are on youtube as some of the suggested links are not that good, like Professor Vankin, avoid him even though he sounds good.

Also looking at a facebook group by borderlines for borderlines, generally speaking, they want their partners to research BPD to understand them, and to reassure them that they will be there for them.  They do not want to be treated the way they treat you when they are having a splitting episode [reactive abuse], some want hugs or to be held, others want to be left alone with words of reassurance you won't leave.  The general theme is they need reassurance that you will not leave.  The do not want you to be critical of them to create defensiveness or contempt, nor do they want you to stonewall them [you may have to grayrock them when they are triggered which is temporary stonewalling].

So, it is a balance of holding them accountable for their bad behaviors, but reassure them that you will be there for them and will not leave [possibly set a boundary with love making this dependent on staying in therapy].  Learn who their favorite person is, usually it is you, but not always, a therapist may encourage them to change it to a best friend.

Also, while they are taking therapy, read the same materials that they are using, and practice the techniques that they are using with them.  DBT isn't just for borderlines, it is useful for nons as well.  One of my favorite DBT tools is 'wise mind'.

In any event it is a long and slow process with setbacks, even back to the beginning [I am there now], and there will be pushback at the beginning, you need to set firm boundaries with love to move forward.

Also, this upcoming Friday evening, I will be leaving for a while, so if you have any additional questions, please ask in the next day or so.

Take care.

[Snoopyluvr]

Thank you so much to everyone! Well, we had our marriage counselling appointment. I told my husband and the counsellor that I refuse to continue pretending that this is a marital communication issue and calmly pled my case. This was our 7th appointment, and our counsellor is accustomed to putting out fires each time, and he concurred and gently told my husband "I think your wife makes some very good points, and from what I have observed, I think that you are having trauma-based reactions towards your wife because of your childhood." Hubby didn't deny but said how much he hates the term borderline. Counsellor concurred and said it's antiquated and stigmatizing, but its a basis for research and a blueprint. I said I don't care if we call it pie as long as we can stop treating a rash when it's really Lyme disease. We are now going to use a combined individual/ couples counselling model- our counsellor is heavy into attachment theory. Mentioned Carl Jung, Bowlby, and Freud. The Freud reference made me shudder a little but I'm taking a backseat and worrying about managing my own reactions. He had time to walk us through how to defuse a scenario, and it was very much like some of the responses you posted; me calmly telling him I sense a storm brewing and that I'm leaving the room for 10 minutes to give him time to calm the waters but I'll be back and I love him. I really do love this man. And if his old man wasn't dead, I'd be wishing him dead for the damage he caused to a wonderful human. I am sure I will have many more questions as time passes and things unfold, I am very thankful to have found such a high quality supportive community!

[PearlsBefore]

Bit younger than you guys, but honestly Bowlby/Freud/Jung isn't a bad combination in my experience - if your counsellor is big on those names, suggest he look into Emil Kraepelin though who is probably "the best" on BPD I've ever found. Otto Kernberg is the "modern father" of it, but I didn't find so excellent.

I went to see a psychologist somewhat recently and was surprised to see he was a thorough and devout Freudian, older gentleman - even had a fainting couch though I declined to use it haha. But honestly I came away from the meeting with the profound sense he'd understood me and my motivations and how my upbringing impacted my current day better than...possibly anyone. He wasn't overly flattering or overly critical, just the classic psychotherapy "Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner".

I'll commit treason here and denounce DBT (I'm sure it works for some people) and advise against listening to anything invoking Marsha Linehan (A high-functioning BPD who developed DBT by adapting CBT to be more empathetic with the idea maybe BPD delusions are valid personal truths, if I were to be crass).

Give me the Austrian school of psychology, the Austrian school of economics, and the Austrian school of everything except failed art students.

[SaltyDawg]

...He had time to walk us through how to defuse a scenario, and it was very much like some of the responses you posted; me calmly telling him I sense a storm brewing and that I'm leaving the room for 10 minutes to give him time to calm the waters but I'll be back and I love him...

Use the 10 minute suggestion as a starting point for a neurotypical [average person] for the amygdala [part of the brain that controls the fight/flight emotional response] to revert to a calmer [baseline] state; however, as a pwBPD is not neurotypical but neurodivergent [not normal], you will get a 'not normal' reaction.  It is through trial and error to determine what your husbands typical response will be, and with therapy, this can be modified.

I find that 10 minutes is often not nearly enough.  If he is disassociating and having a borderline rage and/or split, and is still irrational, you need to wait until the episode is over, and that can rage from a few minutes to a couple of days.  For my uBPDw, this typically lasted 2-4 hours [prior to treatment], with treatment, they are less severe; however, can last a day and a half.  I am not sure which version I like less, the short and intense, or the longer and less intense both equally as emotionally damaging.

Take care with self-care.

[Cat Familiar]

At the minimum, I’ve heard it takes the amygdala 20 minutes to revert to baseline. Now with pwBPD, I think that time frame is likely not enough. It seems that many tend to engage with their inner dialogue to keep running the issue front and center in their consciousness and even without you being present (as the stimulus for their frustration/conflict/anger—though you may be doing NOTHING at all to initiate or provoke it—merely your physical presence can be triggering), it may take A LOT LONGER for them to get distracted enough from their *issue* to return to baseline.

[Smedley Butler]

Snoop

your situation is similar to mine with my wife.  she accuses me of narcissism.  we are on our fifth marriage counselor, who also is convinced it's a marital communication issue (i'm slowly trying to bring him around to the reality).  i am also very logical and no-nonsense which is similarly triggering to my wife.  it's actually kind of fascinating to watch how she physically angrily responds to my self-assurance and confidence, which she regularly attacks as rock solid evidence of my narcissism and control, even if I'm just stating my opinion or my "side" of a disagreement.  the fact is that she has to control every single situation she is in and she cannot tolerate dissent (traits which are regularly projected onto me).  it's a madhouse.