Crisis and despair

[thankful person]

 
So I finally bit the bullet and expressed to my wife that I would like the children to see my mother this summer and that I would like to see her. For those who don’t know, we are speaking of mum staying in a hotel as she has before.
My wife said no, she won’t allow mum to come here or for me to take the children to her. She said if mum comes here she physically won’t allow her to see the kids.
My wife wants me to leave the family home. Now. When I said no, she said she would physically throw me out the door.
She hasn’t done this, but is now looking at booking a hotel for £1000 on credit card for her and the kids for a week, saying she will leave with them if I don’t go.
I said I was going out for a couple of hours but would be back for my online piano lesson. She said she’ll put the key in the lock so I can’t get in.
I’m disgusted with her behaviour. Now my mum and her parents know what’s going on but no one can do anything.
 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[zondolit]

Dear thankful person,

I well know this feeling of getting up the courage to bring something important to me to my spouse and having their response be. . .worse than I could have even imagined.

I understand that you are despairing and in crisis--who wouldn't be in this situation? Yet I will point out some things that I see are really healthy.

You "bit the bullet" and expressed your heart's desire--and a very reasonable one at that--to your wife. Good for you!

You said no even knowing it would displease (is that too mild a word?  your wife. Good for you!

You took a break from a very tense situation. Good for you!

You articulated your disgust with your wife's behavior. Good for you!

Your mum and her parents know. This is actually a really good thing, in my mind, because we become way too isolated in these relationships. By hiding the dysfunction, we play into it.

Finally, your last point: "but no one can do anything." This is not true. This is what your wife wants you to think. You do have options.

[Notwendy]

I hope some of the posters who are more familiar with the legal aspect of this can add their experience --- and- with these kinds of threats- I think it's important for you to consult a lawyer. I have seen where posters hesitate to do this, thinking it means they are leaving the relationship and they don't want to leave. I understand this but this isn't about you leaving, it's about protecting your finances and child custody if your wife chooses to do this, and also knowing what they are when she threatens. This is a self protective decision.

You have no control over your wife's choices, only your response to them. The question is not about how far she will go in her behaviors but what will you tolerate. What is your bottom line?

Others can't tell you what that is. It doesn't seem to be what she says to you, or that she makes you sleep in the other room, or that she won't let your mother visit, or that she spends money recklessly- because, so far, you are tolerating this and still proclaiming your love for her.

She knows she can do these things as their are no consequences to her for that. By contrast, if a kid acted like she does on the playground, the other kids wouldn't play with her. This is how kids learn to play nicely with other kids, if they want to have friends. If the playground bully could insult the other kids and they still want to be friends, they bully would still continue to insult them.

We teach people how to treat us. Please know that I understand. I was raised to be a doormat to my parents and so- others treated me like one because they could do that.

My best guess is that your wife won't be able to handle being alone with the kids for long. The question is- how much of this behavior are you willing to tolerate? I understand not wanting to break up a family but how supportive is this for the kids and you with this kind of behavior?



 

[thankful person]

Update:
My wife did not throw me out of the house or lock me out of the house.
Neither of us is staying in a hotel tonight.
We have had many circular discussions about the fact that I put in no effort in our relationship and neither does my mum. Me suggesting counselling could help us and her saying, no way.
I explained it to mum: “she’s not well. She thinks we can make her happy if we do or say the right thing. But she doesn’t know what that thing is, so she doesn’t realise it’s impossible for us.”
My wife’s dad took the time to send her a long message saying he’s fkd up his life and doesn’t want her to do the same. But she just sees him as a hypocrite having disowned his own mother and two of his daughters. We don’t know where his mother is but my wife’s sisters still regularly see their mum and he could easily reach out to them if he wanted. He has five grandchildren he’s never met by choice.

Zondolit, thank you for your encouragement. It’s easy to slide into victim mentality when you feel you can’t do right by anyone. I knew I had to face this and I thought this would happen. I don’t know what’s going to happen next.

Not Wendy, I hear you, honestly. I have so much respect for what you’ve been through and the time you take to help others on here, to do the best by their children, spouses, and family of origin. I know I have to make the choice myself but I understand why you are concerned about my kids and what’s best for them. I’ve been trying to get some advice about my legal rights over the children given that I’m not officially separated from my wife. (As in, for my mother to see the children…) But I certainly may consider consulting a lawyer and certainly before making any decision to move out.

I’ve had advice from another member to (I understand) not mention this issue directly to my wife for at least a week… then assert again that I intend for mum to visit. (Hopefully my wife’s reaction won’t be as bad). Then wait another week or so and this time give her some dates I’ve already agreed with mum. I’m liking the sound of having a week off, though it’s never really time off in these relationships, is it…

Thank you all again, so much.

[Notwendy]

I do understand your situation. You remind me of my father in the sense that he was smitten, at least at first, with my very beautiful and emotionally needy and unstable BPD mother. We all have our threshold for what we will tolerate- and his must have been a lot- and also he felt responsible for her. I don't know how it feels from his point of view and ours was different.

I agree with the poster who told you to wait and then bring up your mother's visit again. The over the top reaction on your wife's part is how she responds to this but she may also come around to it when she realizes you are still standing up for it.

The threats, I can't count how many times BPD mother threatened to leave and she actually did run off a few times to a hotel somewhere. The difference is that she didn't have much interest in being a parent, so she'd not have taken us with her and she didn't when she left at these times. The actual truth is - she needs constant caretaking. She can not function well on her own. These were not threats she could follow through on, at least for long. I didn't think your wife would be able to take the kids off for long without you.

My BPD mother is still a high care need person. If anyone tries to advise her - she takes  victim perspective. She does not believe anything is "wrong" with her- it's always someone or something else. It's nice that your father in law spoke to your wife but she would have to be able to receive that information if it were to help.

One thing I have observed is that the kind of appeasement, catering, to your wife's behavior does not stop it. It reinforces it. My father chose this route. My mother feels very entitled. For something different to happen, the appeasing has to change.

[thankful person]

Last night my wife was asking me ways we could improve intimacy. This morning I suggested we do our own little vow renewal ceremony. She said, “that’s about commitment but it’s also about love. I don’t love you anymore.”

[Notwendy]

I know that has to feel hurtful. For you, the marriage means commitment, love and intimacy.

Consider there's a sort of incongruity in these interactions. One day after she says she wants you to leave, you suggest a vow renewal? Then she says she doesn't love you. There's a push-pull pattern to this- she pushes, you pull. She pushes and then you want to make more of a commitment - the matching tattoos, the renewal of vows right after she says she wants you to leave.

It's not possible to know exactly what your wife is feeling but if she's saying she doesn't love you, asking her to recommit with you at this time - if she's ambivalent, it's asking her to go through the motions when she's uncertain.

[babyducks]

Last night my wife was asking me ways we could improve intimacy. This morning I suggested we do our own little vow renewal ceremony. She said, “that’s about commitment but it’s also about love. I don’t love you anymore.”

people with a serious mental illness that impacts empathy and emotional regulation say things like this.   I understand she has said things like this to you many times.  I understand it is hurtful.    It is the way your relationship has functioned for a while.    people with serious mental illness do physically attempt to remove people or block them from going places or doing things.    thousands of members here have reported the same patterns.    it is a given, not a surprise, that these are very difficult relationships. it is possible that she remains dysregulated over this topic.   that is the risk we take when we enter and / or stay in a relationship with a mentally unhealthy person.

the advice given is always pretty much the same.    build up your own skill set and tool box.    learn how to respond to hurtful words and actions without being damaged by it.   something that is very hard to do.   build your own support network.   find ways to do self care and recharge your own battery.     seek professional help, from lawyers, clergy, therapists.   if it is impossible to become the emotional leader, at least become emotionally independent so you aren't reactive to each and every emotional storm.   being hyper vigilant and hypersensitive to threats and verbal abuse is normal.    it's also something you can consciously choose to work against.     I would say that during a crisis, it's time to focus on you, your energy, your ideas, wants, and needs, not chasing her emotions.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Not Wendy and ducks, thank you for your latest replies. Yet again it seems my wife has all the power because I’m really upset by all that’s gone down… even though it was unavoidable given my plan to get my Mum here sometime soon. When I’m feeling strong, I feel like I’ve truly had enough and if it weren’t for the kids I’d gladly just go - anywhere - and live happily ever after without her. So why am I so hurt by her? Why am I still playing this game? Why do I realise I love her so much that I feel I can’t ever let her go? I will try to take better care of myself and step out of trying to please her… I don’t know how to respond to, “yet again… today… you’ve made NO EFFORT! How do your think things can ever change when you never make ANY EFFORT?”

[babyducks]

I don’t know how to respond to, “yet again… today… you’ve made NO EFFORT! How do your think things can ever change when you never make ANY EFFORT?”

my first response is bull    but that is me being sarcastic and flippant,  I don't actually recommend you say that.    maybe think it ? 

TP why do you think you have to respond to that?   Do you think it's reasonable?   Do you think there is an answer?  A perfect answer that will satisfy your wife?   Do you think she has the potential to have a productive conversation around this?

I know.  I know.   ducks with those bloody rhetorical questions again.   

Why am I still playing this game? Why do I realise I love her so much that I feel I can’t ever let her go?

I like these questions better.   

[Notwendy]

So why am I so hurt by her? Why am I still playing this game? Why do I  love her so much that I feel I can’t ever let her go?

I think the key is with you, Thankful Person. With my BPD mother, no amount of effort on my part is "enough" for her. She finds something to be angry at me about, or something I didn't do, or did wrong. I have done a lot of nice things for her. It's her victim perspective that makes it not enough.

When we have a strong sense of who we are, we are able to filter what someone says about us. We say "is this me or not me, is this true or not true". If it's true then we can choose to apologize or try to do better. If it's not true, then what they say doesn't make it true. I have made the effort to visit BPD mother, do things for her. So when she says "nobody is helping me do anything" I know it's not true, even if the sees it that way.

I will take a guess at what is going on with you, based on my own experience in 12 step codependency and CODA work- so take it as a guess but if it resonates with you, consider the possibility. You are putting your sense of self in the hands of your wife, rather than knowing it yourself. You are looking to someone who is not able to validate you- to be validated. The question is, why are you doing that? There's a saying in 12 steps- "don't go to the empty well to get a a drink of water"- well you want love, affection, affirmation- from someone who is too mentally ill to provide that for you, she can't even do that for herself.

[thankful person]

Ducks and not Wendy,
Thank you again. You are both right. And I know all of this is bullsh1t. Can I be strong enough to not play the game tomorrow? Every day is a chance to do better. “Maybe I’ll get it right next time.” I don’t know where I’d be without you guys to help put things in perspective.

[babyducks]

You are putting your sense of self in the hands of your wife, rather than knowing it yourself. You are looking to someone who is not able to validate you- to be validated. The question is, why are you doing that? There's a saying in 12 steps- "don't go to the empty well to get a a drink of water"- well you want love, affection, affirmation- from someone who is too mentally ill to provide that for you, she can't even do that for herself.

I like what Notwendy said here.    I'm sure that is tough to grapple with.   it's several big ideas in one paragraph.    I think it is worthwhile to unpack that and take a deeper look.

what does it mean to put our sense of self in the hands of someone with BPD?   when I first met my Ex, those first 6 months of the relationship felt wonderful, it was unbelievably euphoric.   I let her overwrite my own reality because she was making my reality feel incredibly perfect.     I went from being Pig-Pen in the peanuts cartoon to superwoman in one leap.    I never had great boundaries to start with.    and I gave them up without hesitation because I thought I had found nirvana.

there's several false premises in play though.   First, her reality was distorted, addictive as heck, but distorted.    I was not (sadly) superwoman.    Second, neither one of us was respecting boundaries, they went out the window like 3 week old lettuce.    Third, was it was too intense to last.   No one can maintain that level of emotional output for long, you burn out.   Fourth, eventually the realization dawned that we were both only human and sometimes failed at things.   

for my Ex this was unacceptable, it always had to be perfect, completely totally perfect the way it was in the first six months.   and if it wasn't 100% perfect she had to destroy it.    that's the way her brain was wired.

for me, I had (subconsciously) given her permission to overwrite my reality.   and just as I had completely bought into her view that I was superwoman, I began to completely buy into her perceived reality.   if she told me I was I was inarticulate and a poor communicator I believed her.    if she told me I wasn't doing enough to pay attention to her, I upped my actions.

except.    except the things she was telling me didn't match at all with my perceived reality.  cognitive dissonance big time.   there was all this contradictory information swirling around me all the time and I was mentally exhausted from trying to figure it out.  I had already emotionally invested a lot in accepting her reality (me=superwoman)   to fight back against that meant accepting several things.   none of which were palatable.

we often talk about how pwBPD protect their emotions,  well I was doing it too.   accepting that what I had found wasn't the perfect relationship... hard.    accepting that the person I thought was the love of my life had serious serious mental illness... devasting.    accepting that the relationship was so challenged that it would be hard pressed to survive... tragic.    accepting that I had made some big mistakes in how I saw things...hurt.   

radical acceptance meant facing these facts.   and accepting that I wasn't ever going to be superwoman but equally... I had never been pig-pen from peanuts either.    I'm just somewhere in the middle of the road between those two extremes.   like most of us.   it was actually harder to give up on the pig-pen idea than the superwoman one.    which said a lot about me.

i've noticed what Notwendy noticed.    that you allow your wife to overwrite your reality.    if she says it,... it must be true.    if she says it... you must respond to it.   if she wants it... giving in is easier.    and that creates cognitive dissonance for you.   I am going to suggest that the place to focus is on you,   why do you play this game,    why do you allow your wife to control how you act or don't?   that's step one in figuring out how better to respond.

respectfully
'ducks

[thankful person]

Thank you ducks for sharing more of your experience. I do understand and I do agree with you. All my life I had had crazy intense crushes thinking the world of various ordinary people, and no one had ever felt that way about me. Until I met my wife. I now know that she lied to me lots especially as we met online, I said I loved certain bands and music… she loved them too… etc. she knew how important this was to me. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered the truth that she’d rather listen to Katy Perry .

I actually remember a specific incident where I chose to leave the real world to join my wife in her delusional world “permanently”. We had only been together a few days since I left my life on the other side of the world for her. We were in a hotel room and I had made us coffees. I picked mine up off the side and started drinking it putting it down on my bedside table nowhere near hers.After maybe a few minutes, my wife realised I had moved and was drinking the coffee. She was extremely upset that I had moved my cup away from hers (“Our coffees are in love”) and that I was drinking it without her (abandonment anyone?) This was the most ridiculous extreme thing I had heard in my life. And I said to myself, if this relationship is going to work, I need to forever try to avoid things like this which will make my wife upset. I need to start thinking in this way that she thinks. And I might as well start believing in it because I’m going to have to get very good at pretending I give a sh1t By some miracle my wife did gain some amount of emotional stability over the next few years, and I’ll say “despite” my actions which were almost geared to keep her crazy, looking back.

I feel stronger today. This morning the accusations of making no effort rolled off me and I told her, “I’m just not interested in constantly being told this…” She questioned, “so you’re giving up on making an effort, how can things ever get better?” I said, “I will continue to make an effort but I’m not interested in being told I’m not, or being the only person making an effort.” She actually didn’t respond to this so I think it went ok.

She saw some notes on my phone about the legality of my wanting my mother to see the kids. “I was about to write you a really nice note…” she said sadly. “Yeah good excuse for snooping” I thought. Anyway. I really hope for her sake she realises how serious I am. Only then might she back track and suddenly announce she’s inviting my Mum up (always the need to be in control).

Another interesting thing that supports the insanity of it all…
My wife said on that crisis day, “I expect Dad thinks Mum can talk some sense into me… But she can’t. No one can talk sense into me!” I said, “So what you’re saying is, you’re being nonsensical?” “Well basically, yes”. I think it was lived n learned that suggested this was what my wife meant when she said I should just know what she means and wants even though she can’t tell me.

Why am I so intimidated by a person who has basically just admitted that she’s being unreasonable?

[thankful person]

The latest: my wife brought up the topic of Mum’s visit when I was going to leave it a few more days. She told me in no uncertain terms that she will NOT be having my mother here this summer and again was unopen to any other suggestions like I take the kids out to see her for a couple of hours, Mum just comes into the garden, wife goes out or just stays out of the way etc. However she is now saying, “I never said she can’t ever come. Maybe she can come in September…” This is sooner than what she said before (next year 2024…) I am really considering whether this fight is worth it, the obvious problem is that if I let it go then my wife can still say the same thing in September about Mum making no effort, making wife feel uncomfortable and all the rest, and therefore not being welcome. This is causing huge problems as though there wasn’t enough to worry about. I’m wondering if she’s bringing it up because she is coming round to knowing it’s happening. Again feeling like I don’t want to rock the boat…

[Notwendy]

Your wife has a disorder of thinking and emotions. You know this, yet you are following her emotional lead and moods, even though you don't agree with them. But you are still choosing to accommodate them, and they change constantly. Your wife isn't going to change if she can't change.

A line I liked from a Dr. Phil episode is when he was speaking to a family who had a disordered person in the family and they were completely focused on this disordered person's moods which changed constantly. He said to them "you are all lost in the woods and looking to a disordered person to lead you out".

[babyducks]

Until I met my wife.
 she lied to me lots
 she loved them too…
 she knew how important this
 she’d rather listen to Katy Perry .
 join my wife in her delusional world
 She was extremely upset
 I need to avoid things which will make my wife upset.
I need to start thinking in this way that she thinks.
 She questioned
She actually didn’t respond to this so I think it went ok.
She saw some notes on my phone
 she said sadly.
 for her sake she realises how serious I am.
Only then might she back track
My wife said

Thankful Person, 

there is no tone of voice in a text message so when you read this please read this kindly because I do have your best interest in mind.

Your wife has a disorder of thinking and emotions. You know this, yet you are following her emotional lead and moods, even though you don't agree with them.

Your posts are all about her.    All about her.   What she wants.   What she thinks.   What she said.    What might motivate her.   How she might change.

Never about what you.   what you think, want, feel, thought.  never about what motivates you.    how you might change.

She was apparently on your phone looking at things and what you mention to us isn't what you think about the invasion of property, how you feel about her disrespecting your privacy.    The laser focus is on her and how this may/may not impact her behavior.

I could give you dozens of examples.

The latest: my wife brought up
 She told me in no uncertain terms
 she will NOT
she is now saying,
 what she said before
 my wife can still say
 making wife feel
 she’s bringing it up
 she is coming round

it's been discussed a lot that the focus here shouldn't be on someone else.    that we can't change someone else.     that trying to change someone else is manipulative.

it's been pointed out that the focus should be on ourselves.   how to grow ourselves into better and healthier people.

The Bettering board is designed with this in mind:

General Approach: The approach is four-fold: 1) to understand the fundamental struggles of a person with BPD and the challenges that this disorder brings to a relationship; 2) to understand our role in the relationship problems; 3) to learn tools and techniques to help in day to day interactions; and  4) to learn healthy and constructive ways to develop ourselves inside and outside of the relationship.

if you don't wish to understand your role in the relationship problems or learn to develop yourself, perhaps you would find more relief through venting if you posted on the conflicted board?     while on the bettering board people, especially senior members, will respond along the lines of the general approach of the board.   maybe this isn't working for you right now.    that's understandable.   if the support you need is listening and sharing, the conflicted board is the better choice.

'ducks

[thankful person]

if you don't wish to understand your role in the relationship problems or learn to develop yourself, perhaps you would find more relief through venting if you posted on the conflicted board?     while on the bettering board people, especially senior members, will respond along the lines of the general approach of the board.   maybe this isn't working for you right now.    that's understandable.   if the support you need is listening and sharing, the conflicted board is the better choice.

'ducks

Ducks, thank you for your feedback. I may well go to the conflicted board as I am indeed conflicted. But I truly don’t understand what it is that you’re getting at here and I apologise if I’ve misunderstood.

This is the part that I do take offence to: “if you don't wish to understand your role in the relationship problems or learn to develop yourself…” I have worked extremely hard on both of these things over the past couple of years since joining bpd family. I actually had extreme levels of success with it back in 2021. I posted my success story. One of the senior ambassadors on here actually contacted me privately to congratulate me on how much progress I’d made in a short space of time. Things were amazing for over a year. I was on here all the time encouraging others that they had the power to improve things.

I just don’t know where you got the idea that I’m not open to learning and changing things. I hang on every word from you and not Wendy and the others. I’m trying to get this right. Are you suggesting there is an easier way for my mother to see the kids, when my wife has promised she will physically prevent it? (and how traumatic would this be for them too?) I’ve been following and responding to what’s been advised here which is why I am tackling this issue about my mother and determined to succeed.

I know it may seem I’ve got nowhere. The story about the coffee cups was from 9 years ago and in no way reflects my feelings now. Things have been extremely hard since our third child was born. I’ve lost my way somewhat I know. But I have not given up all of the autonomy I’d worked so hard for, just feel I’ve had to “play the game” in many ways trying to keep the peace for the kids.

If you think I’m not interested in learning the part I play, developing myself, changing things, becoming more expert as I believe you recently put it… please tell me where I’m going wrong. I will complete any assignments you suggest. I will read anything you suggest. I do have limited time what with mothering 3 babies with a pwbpd, running the home, running my businesses etc. but I’ll do my best.

[healthfreedom4s]

I don't have any deep inputs on your situation. I want to just acknowledge your courage in taking up this matter with your spouse.
My family doesn't any relationship with my kids for years now. My uBPDw believes my family is evil and ratchets up her tirade (and her rhetoric with my kids) if I try to initiate any contact.
I understand how important this is for you. It take a lot of courage to take this up in the face of certain conflict. You are an inspiration for me.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi, TP,

I’ve followed your threads for a while, though I don’t always have time to respond. Life with kids and work and all that.

I do believe that you are interested in learning about your part in this and developing skills for you to use, regardless of your wife and her behavior. I don’t want to speak for ducks, but from my observations, I think she is trying to point out that you are still very much focused on your wife’s thoughts, moods, emotions, and reactions to literally everything. And that is understandable, because most people in a relationship like this do exactly that. But if you’re interested in developing yourself, then the focus should be on you- your thoughts, your feelings about this, your plans, your actions, your boundaries and values, and your skills in putting on emotional armor so that your wife cannot impact you so deeply with hurtful words or actions.

How she reacts to any of your actions, plans, or tools is irrelevant except in the context of planning and executing how you minimize the impact of her reactions.

This is a huge deal for you, to have your mother visit with your kids, and I believe others here are trying to guide you to go back to the basics, back to what you learned and worked on when you started out here and found success in sending your mom pictures or playing the piano.

Let’s look at what you said above (I’m using my phone so it’s hard to quote). You said you have not given up all the autonomy you’ve worked hard for; you have just felt that you needed to “play the game “ in order to keep the peace for the kids.

Playing the game seems to mean soothing and appeasing, and I understand you don’t want your wife having outbursts or otherwise acting in ways that are inappropriate for children to see. However, this is the trap people fall into with a bpd partner: they compromise boundaries, appease, soothe, and focus on the moods of their partner out of fear that the partner will act out in ways that scare, harm, and traumatize kids. Guess what happens when the non partner does that? Autonomy is sacrificed.

You won autonomy in other areas and no longer have to fight to protect that, because your w has moved on to some new to focus on that upsets her. That doesn’t mean you won’t continually have a battle to protect your values over and over again.

Protecting or winning your autonomy in this latest battle is probably going to take a plan with several steps. Finding out your legal rights is one. Deciding how and where to meet so your mother can see your kids is another. Preparing for what to do if your wife escalates and does drastic things is a critical step in the plan. Armoring up emotionally so any hurtful statements don’t pierce you is another component.

Nowhere in the plan should there be strategies to tiptoe around your wife hoping she will change her view of the visit and be open to it. Would that be nice? Yes. Would that be easier? Of course. Should it be the main strategy on which to focus energy? No. Not at all.

All of this takes a lot of work. That’s a given for people in relationships such as these. It’s up to you to decide if you’re okay with moving forward with ways to protect your boundaries, values, and emotions in the relationship, or stay with the status quo and continue to watch vigilantly for signs of how she reacts to any tentative steps you take or tools you use, trying to put out fires as soon as you see a spark.

[stolencrumbs]

Hi TP,
I also won't speak for ducks, though I will she say she helped me immensely in the past. I think I've replied before to your story, but I've followed it the whole time. I will say there is a lot that jibes with my own story.

The one thing I will say at this point is that one thing to think about is how much of your focus and attention is zeroed in on your wife. It is completely understandable that it is. When there are threats and constant crises, it makes perfect sense that that's where your focus goes. Mine did. For years.

What I think is important is that you start to see that this tunnel vision on your wife's needs and wants and how she responds to what you do is a product of the dysfunctional relationship. It took me literally years of being out of the relationship to actually understand this. So there is no judgment here at all. But being in this kind of relationship literally narrows your vision. I was not able to see beyond the tunnel vision I had that was focused on my wife and her issues. That's where the threat was, and so that is what I focused on. It took a lot of work to understand why I was doing that and why I felt like I had to do that.

I don't know if that's what ducks is getting at, but I know that for me there was a whole bunch of stuff I needed to deal with that I couldn't possibly deal with when almost all of my attention and focus was on my wife. It's very hard to not focus on that, but that is probably what needs to happen.

[Notwendy]

Maybe it will help to share my experience of someone turning the mirror on me. It was not comfortable. It sometimes made me angry. It didn't seem fair. I am not the one behaving poorly. They are the cause of the problems not me. Why do I have to be the one who needs to change? I am doing so much work in this relationship.

Because, we can't change anyone else, we can only make changes ourselves, and it's hard to do this work on our own, because, we are not objective about the relationship or ourselves. We may not see our part in the dynamics. Friends and family are important as support people, but they also may not be objective or feel comfortable pointing things out that may make others uncomfortable.

Mostly though, we don't change when we are comfortable. Either the relationship gets to a point where we don't tolerate it, or we seek advice from others. But if this serves to have us continue to feel comfortable, then it's actually enabling the situations that cause us distress.

For me, it took a counselor and 12 step CODA sponsor to provide another type of support- some tough love. I didn't appreciate it at first. I was angry. But I also was at the point where I was willing to try what they suggested. The first thing they did was to make me turn the focus off the other person and on to me-- every time I discussed their issues or problems or my concerns for them-----they turned the mirror on to me. The message was that what this other person said, or did, or thought was not my side of the fence, I needed to stay on my side and they kept on doing this until I understood it. There was one person in my group who I thought was a mean bully until I could see what the motive was. Friends can offer support and caring in one way. This was another form and something I learned to value in time.

I also can only speak for myself but I see what babyducks mentioned as being similar to the position my sponsor took with me- care and support, but in a different format- and with good intentions.

 In terms of behavior theory, we know that all behaviors continue when the living organism, in this case a person, is benefitting from that behavior in some way. It may not be obvious when a behavior has a high cost to it, like an addiction, but it's the same for all behaviors. These dynamics have a high emotional cost to you, but it's hard to resist appeasing your wife- why this happens is something to think about.

Change is scary. We know the outcome of appeasement but we don't know how the relationship will go if we don't do it. This is a personal choice. My father chose appeasement. I could see that there was a personal cost to this but this was his choice to make. None of us know all of what goes into a relationship. It's not a judgment- this is your relationship to manage.  I think the main point though is that a focus on your wife won't help you determine what you want or need to do as it's not effective.

[thankful person]

I don't have any deep inputs on your situation. I want to just acknowledge your courage in taking up this matter with your spouse.
My family doesn't any relationship with my kids for years now. My uBPDw believes my family is evil and ratchets up her tirade (and her rhetoric with my kids) if I try to initiate any contact.
I understand how important this is for you. It take a lot of courage to take this up in the face of certain conflict. You are an inspiration for me.

Thank you Health freedom for your kindness and support, it means a lot to me. I’m beginning to understand the importance of intrinsic self love, self compassion, self care, self belief… without needing another’s validation. But sometimes, just sometimes… when I’m so worn down and exhausted and feel like I can’t get anything right by anyone.. I just really need someone to say something good about me. I’m so sorry to hear of your situation with your wife and family.

I am redeemed, stolen crumbs, not Wendy, thank you also for these new perspectives. I do understand but might appreciate any further thoughts on how to put such new philosophies into action in my life. I know that I would benefit from therapy and that I’m not at the height of self care in denying myself this. Given the latest dramas, you may understand why I was more motivated to deal with my mother’s visit at this point in time. But I am 100% committed to learn what I can from you guys and any further reading you can direct me to. I know I have a way to go. Please if I’m doing something wrong, or anything I could do better… tell me. Honestly I just want to learn and grow and be a good role model for my kids.

I’m not sure what anyone thought might happen with all this, but here’s what’s happened anyway. My wife has invited my mother to visit in September. Stubborn as ever to not make it July or August, as I was insisting on the “summer” and she had promised, no way. But it’s a small sacrifice. I totally think this would not have happened, had I not tackled this issue and insisted on its importance and my intention to have it happen. At the end of the day, yes she could have prevented it had I tried to arrange something with Mum without her agreement.

[Notwendy]

You aren't doing anything "wrong" - for me - the experience of someone pointing out the tendency to focus on the other person was a learning experience and it is for many people. Another way to look at this is- is what we are doing effective or not? It's not effective to over focus on the other person, because we can't change another person. Since we can only change ourselves- we need to focus more on that side of the street.

In terms of effectiveness, from what I observed, appeasement is a temporary "fix" to the issue at hand, but it reinforces the behavior of the other person in the long run. If the goal is to change- they won't change. They have no incentive to change. The behavior works for them. We are the ones who have to change our response to the behavior.

As to your mother visiting- it's great that she can visit. What did your wife do? IMHO ( just from observation of my own situation) - the timing of "allowing" the visit is not the reason. It's the control. She controls when your mother visits. Yes, in general, it's a mutual decision to have a visitor, but this is all on your wife's terms. Since it's something you want- then it's a good thing for you too.

What this reminds me of is- you have a toddler/preschooler, so you are familiar with their attempts to be in control. So you give them some control but you control the general outcome. They get to choose their lunch, but the choice is a cheese sandwich or a turkey sandwich, not cookies. Cookies aren't part of the choice. It's win win for both of you. The child feels in control but the outcome is that they eat a good meal and not cookies.

Your goal is that your mother can visit, so wife chooses when. It's win win in this situation. Where it can get difficult is that, she's an adult legally, and is capable of making adult decisions so there's a place for choice and a place for boundaries depending on the situation.

[thankful person]

Thank you not Wendy. I am listening very carefully, and I am going to try and take note of when I’m guilty of focusing on others rather than myself. I’m still reading codependent no more so it’s good timing. The other day I turned up for some piano lessons and the mother told me, one of the kids is sick I tried to cancel but you’d already left (I was due to teach for 2.25 hrs). I said to her, “Is it ok if I just charge you for one hour as I’ve driven all the way over here?” My policy is 24 hrs notice but I try to be understanding with unexpected sickness. But I couldn’t believe I just asked the customer how to run my business! Luckily she agreed to the charge . I know I need to work on assertiveness. (It’s easier said in a text haha).

Yes you’re right about the control thing. I try to negotiate with my wife in such a way that she gets feel she’s making the choices. Her suggestion that my mother didn’t come until 2024 was I guess her way of demanding cookies and somehow I managed to clearly say no and she got it. I knew it wasn’t going to work, my just announcing Mum’s coming. I do hope it will be easier next time.

[thankful person]

“Just as a drink helps an alcoholic momentarily feel better, a rescue move momentarily distracts us from the pain of being who we are. We don't feel lovable, so we settle for being needed. We don't feel good about ourselves, so we feel compelled to do a particular thing to prove how good we are.”

Extract from Codependent no more.

I feel like this book was written for me. I have always known these things about myself, that I turned to philanthropy in an attempt to create some meaning for my pitiful existence. I struggled with trying to be a good person yet knowing I’m only doing it to make myself feel better, and that I’m so resentful of giving so much and getting nothing back from others.

I always felt like there was no one out there like me. When I met my wife she worked very hard to convince me she was “the one” who was actually like me. But it was all smoke and mirrors and actually she is not like me. Here at bpd family, I feel like I’ve found my tribe. Was it caretakers I needed in my life? I want to be emotionally healthy and I want to learn everything I can from you all. I’m just so thankful that, whatever point in your journeys you’re at, you never stop trying to help others. I finally feel like I’m getting back some of what I’ve given away all these years.

[Bella2798]

Lovely thankful person, it seems I'm just reading the topic late so I just keep quiet and make this comment that it's really inspiring to me that how you manage to come out of such events, even though I can't imagine how hard for you it could be to face all those stuff; the problem with your wife, also managing stuff with your own family, etc.

This is a quality I really adore in people and it amazes me everytime. I hope you're doing better now.

[thankful person]

Lovely thankful person, it seems I'm just reading the topic late so I just keep quiet and make this comment that it's really inspiring to me that how you manage to come out of such events, even though I can't imagine how hard for you it could be to face all those stuff; the problem with your wife, also managing stuff with your own family, etc.

This is a quality I really adore in people and it amazes me everytime. I hope you're doing better now.

Bella, your support means so much to me. Yes things have calmed down momentarily, who knows what’s next but I’m just trying to enjoy the little things meanwhile. It’s been a very hard time since baby 3 arrived last year and feels like a big strange dream before then when my wife had become more sane and manageable in response to all the work I put in on my own. Dare I hope for things to be like that again? I have no idea.

[Bella2798]

Bella, your support means so much to me. Yes things have calmed down momentarily, who knows what’s next but I’m just trying to enjoy the little things meanwhile. It’s been a very hard time since baby 3 arrived last year and feels like a big strange dream before then when my wife had become more sane and manageable in response to all the work I put in on my own. Dare I hope for things to be like that again? I have no idea.

I can't even imagine how difficult it can be to have and raise children, and it's not like that the more children you have, the more experienced you'll be. Every child makes their own difficulties for parents and with all that said I think that shows your strength that (even with a huge effort) you changed things around for better back then. I hope things get better for all of us.