Breaking up is hard to do

[Depression = 72% of members]

I finally threw in the towel.

My uBPD partner and I had just purchased a house together in another state.  We were both excited to find something nice that we could afford in a place that we liked.  Things had been going smoothly and we were a few weeks away from closing.  This weekend I was supposed to go off to an activity that I enjoy and do often on Saturday mornings.  It had been snowing so my partner was a little worried about me getting in an accident.  I checked the roads and they looked OK.  The weather had cleared so she encouraged me to go to class and come home whenever I was ready.  I went to class and it ended up running over by an hour.  I should have contacted her to let her know but right when we finished I texted her that I was coming home and I was OK.  She asked me to pick up some groceries on the way.  I did and got home as soon as I could.  When I got there she asked if I could finish shoveling the driveway.  No problem.  I finished that task then talked with her about our plans for the evening.  We were going to her friends house then off to a holiday light show.  Leaving at 4:00.  Great!  No problem.  She took a nap and I got ready to go.  Close to when we were going to leave she asked me to grab something from the kitchen.  We were going to decorate gingerbread houses.  I said sure and started on my task.  Then she storms downstairs and screams at me about why I hadn't taken the dog out.  Apparently she peed on the carpet.  I said I was just trying to find what you asked for.  Then she lays into her son about why he didn't take the dog out, screams at him to clean up the mess.  I take the dog out and when I get back she's left for her friends without her son.  He starts screaming at me that we need to leave because he's gonna miss out on decorating gingerbread houses.

So we leave for the friends house together.  When I get there she's smiling and says she's so happy to see us but that we need to talk about my activity later.  I said sure.  We have a lovely time with her friends and likewise at the light show.  Collected both cars and headed home for the evening.  When we got there it was a pretty typical evening getting ready for bed.  Then she asked me to come into the bathroom to talk.  She shuts the door and proceeds to tell me that she's sick of me going to this activity.  She says that I have to decide right now that either I will quit it for good or our relationship is done.  Also that she would not pay me back for the earnest money we put down on the house.  My jaw dropped to the floor.  I said that I'm sorry but I'm not quitting that activity and she said I guess we are done.

Dumbfounded I went to bed.  The next morning I woke up and started reading some things from the "Stop Caretaking the BPD" book and made the decision right there that I needed to leave.  I packed a bag and left the house intending to not come back for many days.  She had left for the gym and her son was still sleeping.  I didn't want her son to see any of this drama since he's already seen too much of adults screaming at each other.

I texted her about what I had decided.  Not that we were breaking up but that I needed space.  You can imagine that this didn't go over well for someone with BPD.  But I needed to get away from the abuse.  We talked later on that morning.  I said that I left because of how she treated me.  We were about to purchase a house and she used that opportunity to give me an ultimatum.  She has struggled with me being away for activities before and was sensitive to the issue.  Because of what happened that day spending extra time without telling her she decided to use that as a jumping off point to demand I should quit altogether.  She flatly denied that she gave me an ultimatum and said she just gave me a choice.  It got pretty contentious from there.

The rest of the day was long text messages about how I was running away when we had hard conversations to have and trying to get me to come home to talk face to face.  I wasn't in a place to do that.  I was so pissed off about what had happened.  Luckily our real estate agent was able to get us smoothly out of the purchase.

Today we finally spoke on the phone again.  She admitted that what this is really all about is her fear of abandonment without taking ownership of it.  Her solution is to have me just be with her all the time.  I explained that my decision to break up didn't have anything to do with the activity but about how she treated me.  We both said that we'd miss each other and loved each other and that was that.  She's moving into an apartment.  I'm staying in the house until the lease expires in six months then not sure.

I feel like this could get fixed.  But she'd need to admit that she has work to do on her side.  We'd also need to be able to have conversations about how to solve problems together.  Neither of those things ever seemed to happen.  I'm extremely sad about this.  I love her SO much but I'm tired of the abuse.

I feel like I should pick up the phone and apologize and beg her to come back.  Let's get a counselor and work it out.  But I don't think she'll be able to do the hard work.  Things very quickly swing back to me not working hard enough or whatever.

I feel like this is what I need to do but in so many ways don't want to happen.  My last conversation with her this morning was with the person that I love so much.  Not the emotionally overdriven abuser.

[usagi]

I finally threw in the towel.

My uBPD partner and I had just purchased a house together in another state.  We were both excited to find something nice that we could afford in a place that we liked.  Things had been going smoothly and we were a few weeks away from closing.  This weekend I was supposed to go off to an activity that I enjoy and do often on Saturday mornings.  It had been snowing so my partner was a little worried about me getting in an accident.  I checked the roads and they looked OK.  The weather had cleared so she encouraged me to go to class and come home whenever I was ready.  I went to class and it ended up running over by an hour.  I should have contacted her to let her know but right when we finished I texted her that I was coming home and I was OK.  She asked me to pick up some groceries on the way.  I did and got home as soon as I could.  When I got there she asked if I could finish shoveling the driveway.  No problem.  I finished that task then talked with her about our plans for the evening.  We were going to her friends house then off to a holiday light show.  Leaving at 4:00.  Great!  No problem.  She took a nap and I got ready to go.  Close to when we were going to leave she asked me to grab something from the kitchen.  We were going to decorate gingerbread houses.  I said sure and started on my task.  Then she storms downstairs and screams at me about why I hadn't taken the dog out.  Apparently she peed on the carpet.  I said I was just trying to find what you asked for.  Then she lays into her son about why he didn't take the dog out, screams at him to clean up the mess.  I take the dog out and when I get back she's left for her friends without her son.  He starts screaming at me that we need to leave because he's gonna miss out on decorating gingerbread houses.

So we leave for the friends house together.  When I get there she's smiling and says she's so happy to see us but that we need to talk about my activity later.  I said sure.  We have a lovely time with her friends and likewise at the light show.  Collected both cars and headed home for the evening.  When we got there it was a pretty typical evening getting ready for bed.  Then she asked me to come into the bathroom to talk.  She shuts the door and proceeds to tell me that she's sick of me going to this activity.  She says that I have to decide right now that either I will quit it for good or our relationship is done.  Also that she would not pay me back for the earnest money we put down on the house.  My jaw dropped to the floor.  I said that I'm sorry but I'm not quitting that activity and she said I guess we are done.

Dumbfounded I went to bed.  The next morning I woke up and started reading some things from the "Stop Caretaking the BPD" book and made the decision right there that I needed to leave.  I packed a bag and left the house intending to not come back for many days.  She had left for the gym and her son was still sleeping.  I didn't want her son to see any of this drama since he's already seen too much of adults screaming at each other.

I texted her about what I had decided.  Not that we were breaking up but that I needed space.  You can imagine that this didn't go over well for someone with BPD.  But I needed to get away from the abuse.  We talked later on that morning.  I said that I left because of how she treated me.  We were about to purchase a house and she used that opportunity to give me an ultimatum.  She has struggled with me being away for activities before and was sensitive to the issue.  Because of what happened that day spending extra time without telling her she decided to use that as a jumping off point to demand I should quit altogether.  She flatly denied that she gave me an ultimatum and said she just gave me a choice.  It got pretty contentious from there.

The rest of the day was long text messages about how I was running away when we had hard conversations to have and trying to get me to come home to talk face to face.  I wasn't in a place to do that.  I was so pissed off about what had happened.  Luckily our real estate agent was able to get us smoothly out of the purchase.

Today we finally spoke on the phone again.  She admitted that what this is really all about is her fear of abandonment without taking ownership of it.  Her solution is to have me just be with her all the time.  I explained that my decision to break up didn't have anything to do with the activity but about how she treated me.  We both said that we'd miss each other and loved each other and that was that.  She's moving into an apartment.  I'm staying in the house until the lease expires in six months then not sure.

I feel like this could get fixed.  But she'd need to admit that she has work to do on her side.  We'd also need to be able to have conversations about how to solve problems together.  Neither of those things ever seemed to happen.  I'm extremely sad about this.  I love her SO much but I'm tired of the abuse.

I feel like I should pick up the phone and apologize and beg her to come back.  Let's get a counselor and work it out.  But I don't think she'll be able to do the hard work.  Things very quickly swing back to me not working hard enough or whatever.

I feel like this is what I need to do but in so many ways don't want to happen.  My last conversation with her this morning was with the person that I love so much.  Not the emotionally overdriven abuser.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi usagi,

This is so difficult and not what you wanted for your relationship 

It makes sense that you're wondering if this is fixable.

What would you ideally want to try, in order to know that you acted with integrity? There's no right answer. It could range from "nothing beyond what I've already done" through "intensive relationship counseling" through any number of things.

It is really painful seeing how BPD can limit people from having healthy, long-term relationships with a loving partner.

[usagi]

Hey kells76,

She's admitted that she has real abandonment issues and that she has "intense" emotions.  I think the only way this could be salvaged is that she decided to take on these issues or at least try to work on them.  From my side, I am kicking myself for not listening to her emotions that night.  She said later that she wasn't trying to end the relationship and expected that we'd talk about it the next day.  But in the moment she was demanding I make a choice and I responded, trying to hold a boundary.  I wonder what would have happened if I had backed things up and asked more about her feelings, knowing that she is scared of abandonment.

Her assertion that I "ran away" stings.  But I felt like we had hit an impasse.  We'd talked about this topic before and agreed that I'd keep my time doing this activity to a minimum but not quit all together  I even mentioned this the night she gave me the ultimatum and she said that it wouldn't work and that I'd just ignore her and leave her again.  I left because I didn't think it was salvageable and I was very upset.

I don't know.   

[HurtAndTired]

Usagi,

I am so sorry to hear that things have taken a turn for the worse. However, they are still salvageable if you want to reconcile. I once moved out and lived at my parent's house for a month because my wife had decided that she no longer wanted to try to have a child or adopt if we couldn't conceive after having agreed to when we got married. That was a deal breaker for me, but we ended up reconciling and having our son when she saw that I was not going to budge on something that was of utmost importance to me. There have been other times when I have moved to the spare bedroom and endured over a month of silent treatment interspersed with incredibly long and angry text messages because I refused to apologize for something that I did not do. Although I did not know it at the time, these were examples of me enforcing boundaries and living through the resulting extinction bursts.

It sounds like you enforced a healthy boundary and she responded with an entirely predictable extinction burst. The strange thing about pwBPD is that as you learn more and more about the disorder they go from being completely unpredictable to being extremely predictable. While I cannot predict when events that trigger my wife will happen (no one can predict the future) I can observe what is happening in real time and, with a great degree of accuracy, predict how she will respond to triggers. The same goes for enforcing boundaries. I know an extinction burst will happen. I don't know the exact details of what she will do or how long it will last, but even that is getting more predictable over time. For example, I know that she will likely no longer use physical violence because she fears the consequences of being arrested.

While you have backed out of the purchase of the house and she has agreed to move to an apartment, there is nothing to keep her from backing out of a lease and staying in your shared current house. There is also nothing to keep you from renewing the lease on the house after it expires in six months. From what I have garnered from your past posts, the move out of state was problematic in the first place. She has not addressed custody issues with her ex, and moving her son far away from his father is not what is best for him, no matter what she says. This might end up being a blessing in disguise.

If you decide you want to reconcile she would likely entertain the idea, given that she has such fear of abandonment and it is characteristic of pwBPD to discard and then try to recapture their Favorite Person. You have demonstrated that you have a hard and solid boundary on not irrationally and needlessly giving up a loved activity to please her whim and cater to her insecurities. If you decide you wish to reconcile, it is unlikely that she will try to tell you not to do this activity in the future. Looked at in the right light, this could be a great first step to asserting yourself and bettering your relationship by re-establishing it on new terms that are more fair to you. Unfortunately, a long-term relationship with a pwBPD necessarily involves drawing and constantly enforcing boundaries. There will be conflict, and it will never be a "normal" relationship, but you can find a way to make it work if you are willing to continue to do the hard work and not waver in your vigilance about self-care and boundaries. From my perspective, the ball is in your court. What do you want to do with it?

HurtAndTired

[usagi]

Thanks for the support and guidance, HurtAndTired.  I'm getting the feeling like she does want to reconcile already.  She's said that we could have worked out the issues with the hobby and that she'll "miss me like hell".  I'm going to go see her and her son tonight to talk about what happened.

I'm not sure at this point what I want.  I honestly was feeling like I was getting some traction on this.  But I recently have been feeling like she's not really respecting my boundaries.  When she rages and I get upset I leave the house for a bit.  I tell her where I'm going and when I'll be back.  Not necessarily that I'm waiting for her to "calm down" or that she is explicitly running into a boundary for me.  She's responded by saying that I'm "running away" and that she can't have someone in her life that does this anytime there's a difficult conversation to have.  She's still not respecting this boundary.

I tried talking with her that evening about her feelings behind my hobby but she was having none of it.  She said "you'll just do it again so you need to stop".  I guess I feel like I don't have a voice with her.  It's important for healthy relationships to have both people be able to express themselves and talk through it.  It's not OK for one person to shut the other one down.  We could have been on the line for a LOT of money and I feel like she used this as an opportunity to get what she thought she needed.  That was too far for me.

After that night I told her that she gave me an ultimatum.  She completely denies this.  She said she gave me a choice, and that she just wanted to chat about what happened and express her disappointment that I wasn't home when I said I would be.  She said that she never suggested that we break up.  She's rewritten that narrative and if I suggest otherwise I'm wrong.

I need to have a voice in this relationship and I don't feel like I do.  When we have hard conversations about problems in our relationship she won't see my perspective.  I end up doing all the work in this relationship and then get kicked when things don't go her way.

I feel like I can handle the outbursts.  I've gotten much better about not taking her attacks personally.  But this was too far.  I'm not sure I can come back from this, even though I want to have a relationship with her.  It's EXTREMELY stressful for me.

I want to have a loving partner that can support the very few things in my life that I need and she's shown that she can't.  Me going to my hobby is just to painful for her, in her eyes.

I would need her to take some accountability for her actions to get back together or even consider it.  Show some remorse and willing ness to change.

[HurtAndTired]

In my experience, a pwBPD can be loving and can offer support, but they cannot be counted on to do so with any type of regularity. You need to be 100% self-sufficient and give yourself all of the love and support that you need. Anything you get from your partner is just a happy bonus. She is not supportive of your hobby because she finds it threatening. She has been throwing a fit to try to get her way and get you to stop because she doesn't like the uncomfortable feeling of your focus being anywhere that's not her. You have to think of her as an emotional toddler throwing a tantrum. If you don't JADE and ignore the tantrum she will eventually stop because it is not giving her what she wants. Once I realized my wife is on the same emotional level as my 2-year-old, it gave me a lot of perspective.

Our kiddo can truly put on a show when he isn't getting his way, but I have gotten really good at just tuning it out. Eventually, he stops and the behavior is not reinforced. Sometimes I am complimented on how well-behaved he is and, as a high school teacher, I can tell you from experience it is because I use the same old-fashioned love and discipline my grandparents (Greatest Generation) and parents (Boomers) used instead of new-aged "no spank, time out, I'm your buddy, not your parent" type approach used by so many Millenial and Gen Z parents.

I apply the same approach to myself and my wife and now give myself the tough self-love I need to be self-sufficient and my wife the no-nonsense tough love that she needs to control her unacceptable and abusive behaviors. She will never be an equal partner that I can count on to support me. She didn't support me becoming a teacher, and she didn't support me getting my MA once I was a teacher, and it really bothered me at the time. Now that I am being real with myself about her condition it doesn't bother me that she has voiced opposition to me starting work on my Doctorate of Education. I will do it because it is what I want to do, it is in the best interest of my family, and I think that I can help a lot of people as an administrator. I didn't need her permission or approval for my earlier career and/or educational decisions (no matter how much I wanted them) and I don't need them now. The only difference is that I will not even bother to ask for them or have any expectation of getting them. This is ok with me. I accept that I will always have to be the leader in our relationship. While I am still sad that she is incapable of being an equal partner, at least someone is now leading whereas before our relationship was like a boat tossed and turned by the storm with no one at the rudder.

I have closely identified with your situation since I read your first post and truly believe that you could get to where I am now without nearly as much time or turmoil because you figured the whole BPD situation out years before I did in the course of my own relationship. You have found a good place for support on BPD Family and I know that so many of us are rooting for you. Ultimately the decision is yours, but please do know that we are here to support you and help in any way we can. If this relationship is what makes you happy, we will help you fight to keep the best parts of it while getting the parts that are unacceptable under control. All the best.

HurtAndTired

[jaded7]

This weekend I was supposed to go off to an activity that I enjoy and do often on Saturday mornings.  It had been snowing so my partner was a little worried about me getting in an accident.  I checked the roads and they looked OK.  The weather had cleared so she encouraged me to go to class and come home whenever I was ready.

In other words, she didn't want you to go, but acted like she did want you to. And you took her at her word. And now she's mad at you for going to the thing that you like and she encouraged. This is a form or mind-reading expectation, you should just KNOW what she wants, she shouldn't have to say. Or, I can just change my mind, doesn't matter what I said before. Then comes the argument about what she said, what the words actually mean, etc. etc. Been there man.

When I get there she's smiling and says she's so happy to see us but that we need to talk about my activity later.  I said sure.  We have a lovely time with her friends and likewise at the light show.  Collected both cars and headed home for the evening.  When we got there it was a pretty typical evening getting ready for bed.  Then she asked me to come into the bathroom to talk.  She shuts the door and proceeds to tell me that she's sick of me going to this activity.  She says that I have to decide right now that either I will quit it for good or our relationship is done.  Also that she would not pay me back for the earnest money we put down on the house

The whole scene at the party is an act, that should scare anybody that someone can be ready to torpedo a long relationship and act so 'kindly' to them in the minutes before.

And that is indeed an ultimatum, a very clear one. Stop doing that thing (which I told you to go ahead and do), or I'm leaving, blowing up the relationship for you and the son, and I'm going to cost you a ton of money, on purpose and will ill intent, in doing so. Sounds like an ultimatum to me.

People with BPD can say one thing, mean another, and get mad at you for listening to their words. Been there, done that. People with personality disorders will act as if they are feeling one thing and really feeling the opposite, but then blame you for not knowing. Been there done that.

People with BPD will often give ultimatums when they feel 'out of control' and need to get things 'under control'. In this case, it sounds like her abandonment issues which are related to you doing the activity on Saturday mornings. She gave you an ultimatum as a result of her BPD-related fear of abandonment (which may or may not be true, but it is a characteristic of BPD) as a result of you doing the thing you love and that she encouraged. How crazy making is that?

Then she denies giving you an ultimatum, and then you get in an argument about what the meaning of 'ultimatum' is.

Then accuses you of not having the hard conversations, when she gave you a very clear ultimatum and you made your choice. You see how the 'ultimatum' was a manipulation tactic?

I'm sorry man. This is all so crazy making. I'm so glad you were able to back out of the house purchase. That's a huge win.

[usagi]

So I think I'm experiencing an extinction burst.  I finally went over to the house to see her for the first time in a few days to talk about what happened and why I left.  I tried to explain that I didn't feel like she would listen to me.  Instead she'd cut me off when we'd talk about hard topics and claim that I was just acting like a victim.  I also tried to point out that she said many times that night that "we're done".  She said that she doesn't remember saying that and that all she remembered was saying that we needed to talk about my hobby and that she was upset that I wasn't home earlier.  This, I think, is one of the hard things about being with someone with BPD.  Going back over these tense moments we don't have the same frame of reference.  It's like we lived two different realities in the moment.  Things got pretty heated while talking.  She stomped off at one point saying that I can find someone who would be fine letting me be a child.  I knew I shouldn't take the bait but did and said "I'm not a child".  With that she charged at me saying "don't you talk to me!"  I seriously thought she was going to start throwing punches.  So I backed off and put my hands up to show I didn't want an altercation.  She walked ahead and I followed her back to the house.  She gave me a check for her half of the earnest money that she owed, a Christmas ornament she wanted to give me as a present, and showed me out while crying.

No contact the rest of the night until I was trying to get to sleep.  Then I get a FaceTime call from her and was a little shocked.  She was laying in bed sobbing and only saying "you can have anything you want."  She was saying this over and over again.  Then she started saying "don't throw me away."  I started asking her if she'd had her medication.  She then started talking about how no one wants her when she's angry but that she would just be quiet if I just didn't throw her away.  It was very clear that she was in a way different head space.

I know that she loves me so much.  And I love her.  Now I'm not sure what to do.  Do I stick to my guns and see her out the door?  Or do I use this as an opportunity to steer her toward therapy (individual and or couples)?  I feel like I've successfully held a boundary but now what?  I guess the answer is that I need to do what I did again if she ever challenges this boundary again?

I feel like she's doing anything she can at this point to stop the feeling of abandonment.  It's SO strong for her.

I would really like to suggest that she start seeing a counselor to work on this feeling of abandonment.  It's something she readily admits to having these feelings.  Then she also says "people only love the good me, not the angry one".  Her mom even used to compare her to Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

She told me a story where she heard this person got between the police and a woman who was enraged when they were trying to take her baby to child custody.  He got down on his knees and just held out his arms.  Radical acceptance she called it.  That's what she wants someone to do for her.  But she somehow misses the part about why she's getting so angry...

I really don't know what do to at this point.  I've had many of my friends encourage me to hold my ground and not fall back into this relationship.  But the way she was falling apart tonight was just like this past summer when I just had to come see her to help her calm down.

[kells76]

Am I tracking with you that you two are living separately right now?

Would you want to try a "therapeutic separation" (living apart for a non-infinite amount of time, with interactions guided and managed by a therapist, and with goals for each of you -- very structured)? Some couples do this and the process can make it more clear whether they want to (or can) stay together and heal, or need to end the relationship. Having the therapist as the guide/coach/referee is important.

Would she participate if you set up the appointment and suggested trying a TS?

[usagi]

Yes we are living apart at the moment.  I'm in a temporary situation.  She's moving out of our house on the 26th and then I'll be back there.

I feel like she really needs to show at least a little accountability.  I went over yesterday under the pretense that she was going to listen to why I wanted to break up but it turned into her talking about how hurt she felt that I have been gone for three days.  Additionally, she tried to rewrite the narrative on what happened this weekend, totally undercutting what I experienced.

She's asked me to come over in a bit to listen to what she has to say.  She's also been saying that she doesn't want me to "throw her away".

I feel this is another boundary challenge in some way.  I need to hold my ground.  I need her to hear me and not disregard me when we have big relationship issues to discuss.  And I really think that she needs to seek a therapist for her feelings of abandonment.  They have caused such problems in our relationship.  She said this is something she's been working on all her life.  But I don't see how.  I need to ask her.

This will be the first evening that she'll be alone in the house.  And I think she will do everything to try to get me to stay with her. 

[usagi]

Kells76, I'd be willing to try a therapeutic separation.  But I think it's maybe more important that she tries to get some help for her abandonment issues.  I guess that could be as a couple but that has really been driving problems.  Thanks for the suggestion =)

[kells76]

If you are the more emotionally healthy one in the relationship, and you want to save it, then it's probably going to be some unfair heavy lifting on your part at the start of the turnaround.

I feel like she really needs to show at least a little accountability.  I went over yesterday under the pretense that she was going to listen to why I wanted to break up but it turned into her talking about how hurt she felt that I have been gone for three days.  Additionally, she tried to rewrite the narrative on what happened this weekend, totally undercutting what I experienced.

It's OK to have a value of "for me to move forward in this relationship, the timeline for my partner to show accountability is now, not later". That is fair.

There will be outcomes to having that value -- if you hold that value and she shows accountability now, then you can move forward with integrity.

If you hold that value and she doesn't show accountability now, then you have some decisions to make.

Do you keep articulating that value, but get back together regardless? That is a challenge to integrity.

Or, are you willing to live out the real life implications of holding that value -- that you may lose the relationship?

...

She's asked me to come over in a bit to listen to what she has to say.  She's also been saying that she doesn't want me to "throw her away".

I feel this is another boundary challenge in some way.  I need to hold my ground.  I need her to hear me and not disregard me when we have big relationship issues to discuss.  And I really think that she needs to seek a therapist for her feelings of abandonment.  They have caused such problems in our relationship.  She said this is something she's been working on all her life.  But I don't see how.  I need to ask her.

You can't make her hear you -- at least, not with whatever approaches have been tried. If you could, you would've done it already, because it is so painful to not be heard by a partner, and that's been a big hurt for you in the relationship. I've heard your pain in your posts, and it's been relentless 

It would be better for her and you if she would independently get help. She hasn't so far, and again, if there were a way you could've gotten her to do so already, you probably would have, because you care about her and wish she'd get better for her sake and the sake of the relationship.

...

The relationship as it was, didn't seem to be working. Approaches weren't working -- not long term.

She likely isn't well enough to be the emotional leader in the relationship, not right now.

Waiting for her to independently get individual therapy -- you can want that and have that value, but then it's decision time for you about a timeline.

Where you would be in the driver's seat, though, for example, is setting up relationship counseling and inviting her to attend.

Considering doing relationship counseling isn't saying "she doesn't have the problems". She does, you do, I do, we all do. Setting up relationship counseling might be the most tangible way you have to live out your values of: "I want to try to make this relationship work, and as it is right now, it isn't working".

Kind of goes back to these thoughts here:

Kells76, I'd be willing to try a therapeutic separation.  But I think it's maybe more important that she tries to get some help for her abandonment issues.  I guess that could be as a couple but that has really been driving problems.  Thanks for the suggestion =)

It is possible that the first step in her journey to getting help for her abandonment issues is through relationship counseling.

But am I reading you correctly that RC has been driving problems?

Other than you taking the emotional lead to suggest/kickstart RC, the other areas you have control over are: your participation in individual counseling, you going to see a relationship counselor on your own (that can be a thing), and you gaining clarity on your own values and timeline.

....

There are no "right or wrong" answers here. It's not "failing" to end the relationship, or to have values that are important to you, or to have a timeline for things you need to see to stay together.

Maybe a place to start, before scheduling counseling or meeting up with her to talk or getting back in the house together, could be articulating to yourself (or us!) what your values are and what your needs are and what timeline you have for those needs, and then asking yourself how willing you are to live out those values, whether she joins you or not.

Sometimes, being the emotional leader and offering to your partner to join you on your healthier path can improve the relationship (vs "requiring your partner to take the lead to start on their own healthy path"). No guarantees -- so much of this may boil down to how much you're up for and how much you want to save the relationship.

Any of that resonating right now, or am I kind of off base?

[usagi]

This certainly does resonate, kells.  My therapist suggested I put together a list of things that are problems for me in the relationship, specifically so that if we talk about getting back together I'd keep these things in mind.

1.       Emotional abuse
Mainly the raging and threats of leaving because of my behavior.  This also includes trying to limit my activities and generally talking down to me like saying that I’m immature, acting like a child, or useless.
 
2.       Not supportive of my parenting
Saying that I’m not actually a parent, scolding me like a child in front of the child, and not recognizing my contributions to parenting him.
 
3.       Threatened physical abuse
To date, this hasn’t gotten very bad but still inappropriate.  It seems like she’s getting more comfortable with this and that scares me.
 
4.       Everything is my fault in the relationship
I have certainly had my share of screw ups in the relationship but it wasn’t everything.  When I’ve tried to talk to her about things I see that she could do better she blows me off and puts it back on me.


Having said all that, I think that her abandonment issues really do underpin a lot of our problems from her side.

I think it would make sense if she did do individual counseling with me or without me.  RC I'm not as sure about but would consider that if it lead to her doing IC.

[SaltyDawg]

Kells76, I'd be willing to try a therapeutic separation.  But I think it's maybe more important that she tries to get some help for her abandonment issues.  I guess that could be as a couple but that has really been driving problems.  Thanks for the suggestion =)

I think the best benefit for therapy is you got your own individual therapy.  You cannot make her go to therapy, all you can do is ask, or suggest it.  Since you go to therapy, and she is benefiting from it, perhaps you could persuade her to seek therapy for herself.  I know my wife brought me to couple's therapy to get me fixed after a decade hiatus of me bringing her to therapy only for her to fire all of the therapists (by not going back to them, as she thought there was nothing wrong with her).

I jumped at going to therapy with my wife, that was over 4 years ago, and we have had therapy weekly most of that time, over 200 sessions, and we have only addressed 1/3 to 1/2 of the issues of her BPD with the other 1/2 to 2/3 still to go.  It took her 3 years to finally realize that she was 'part' of the problem with her most recent suicide attempt, and that is when the dynamic shifted which effectively jump-started my wife into her own path into individual therapy.

If and when you can get into therapy with her, choose the low hanging fruit first, the easiest ones a therapist to address - threatening physical abuse was the 2nd one that was addressed with my wife (after the suicidal behaviors).  1, 2, & 4 are all interrelated as they are all forms of emotional abuse and dysregulation, that is by far the most difficult to address, and I am getting pushback from the couple's therapist on this as my wife's feelings do not match the facts and our therapist doesn't want to invalidate my wife's false narrative - this is an uphill battle that is very difficult to navigate.

Getting your wife into therapy, only brings her to the starting line, for a never ending marathon.  She must be willing to work on herself for it to be effective.

Take care with self-care.

SD

This certainly does resonate, kells.  My therapist suggested I put together a list of things that are problems for me in the relationship, specifically so that if we talk about getting back together I'd keep these things in mind.

1.       Emotional abuse
Mainly the raging and threats of leaving because of my behavior.  This also includes trying to limit my activities and generally talking down to me like saying that I’m immature, acting like a child, or useless.
 
2.       Not supportive of my parenting
Saying that I’m not actually a parent, scolding me like a child in front of the child, and not recognizing my contributions to parenting him.
 
3.       Threatened physical abuse
To date, this hasn’t gotten very bad but still inappropriate.  It seems like she’s getting more comfortable with this and that scares me.
 
4.       Everything is my fault in the relationship
I have certainly had my share of screw ups in the relationship but it wasn’t everything.  When I’ve tried to talk to her about things I see that she could do better she blows me off and puts it back on me.


Having said all that, I think that her abandonment issues really do underpin a lot of our problems from her side.

I think it would make sense if she did do individual counseling with me or without me.  RC I'm not as sure about but would consider that if it lead to her doing IC.