How do you respond to being called a narcissist?

[CC43]

Kindness,

You really do appear to be very kind, working hard to foster a better relationship with your daughter without triggering her or enabling self-destructive behavior.  BPD is so tricky to handle, as even a tone of voice or a facial expression can elicit an undesired reaction that could end in a self-destructive downward spiral or estrangement.

Livednlearned wrote something that describes the pwBPD in my life perfectly!

". . . because being a victim can feel like a warm blanket. It protects them from self-activating and returning to life. This makes it hard for us as people who love them because they create a distorted sense of safety by using us to set up and confirm their victimhood, and in the process victimize us."

In my stepdaughter's case, it's as if this warm blanket is lulling her into avoidance, when a tough situation calls for resilience instead. My stepdaughter will often face a mini-crisis, such as an exam coming up, not being invited to a party, or not getting a job interview.  When under stress, she'll start on a downward spiral. Instead of getting back to work on studying, or apologizing, or applying for another job, or working towards something she wants, she's overwhelmed by negative thoughts. Her self-talk is not balanced or compassionate (college coursework is harder than high school and I'll need to study more; I can't be invited to every party on the planet; there are plenty of jobs out there).  Instead, her self-talk is negative--I'm too dumb for college; the sorority girls don't like me because I'm a loser; I'll never get a good job for as long as I live; it's hopeless for me.  Because this is train of thought is too painful for her, she'll flip the script and blame her family--I can't study because all I can think about is how bad my childhood was; it's my parents' fault that I'm unlovable; they didn't do anything for me; they messed me up and they're going to pay for it. The victimhood thinking is easier to deal with than the negative self-assessment AND the concerted effort required to overcome obstacles.  Hence the "warm blanket" of victimhood, which leads to lots of daytime sleeping and cutting off of communications.

My stepdaughter's emotional crises also seemed to come to the fore during Covid.  At one point, I tried reaching out to her to give a compassionate explanation of her struggles during Covid:  disrupted routines, ineffective online teaching and learning, sickness and loss, missing out on get-togethers, uncertainty, heightened stress, quarantines, etc.  Basically it was a bad patch for everyone, understandably so.  However that view did not take hold with her.  She went the victim route.  And the sad thing is, once she got under that blanket, it was very hard for her to escape that line of thinking without therapy.  But at some point, she did realize that things weren't right with her, and that life was miserable, so she decided she did want some help to make things better.  Therapy and medications have helped her start moving in the right direction.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SendingKindness]

Well I thought I’d give a bit of an update, although things seem to have really gone off the rails and I’m feeling pretty down about it all. I think this is less about my responses to her reading request and more about her stress.

From what I can figure out (she’s not giving me the whole picture), she is in extreme financial stress.  She had received a bit of money last fall from a legal settlement and I think has been living off that for the last few months, in addition to the monthly amount I have been giving her.  I’m pretty sure it’s all gone now, due to poor decisions on her part (she went to Mexico for a month, had some other big expenditures). Yesterday she asked me if I could pay her home heating bill. I said no,  as I have repeatedly told her the monthly amount is all I can afford.  Yesterday and today she has been going into a complete meltdown, something I’ve seen before in response to financial stress.  There have been a string of bizarre texts all yesterday and today - claiming she’s talking to my father (he died when she was 1), claiming my husband (not her father) is invested in war stocks (not true and there’s no way she’d even know his financial details), badmouthing other family members, accusing them and me of lying (these are all nice kind members of our extended family who have been very patient with her, but can’t take the on-going abuse), claiming a member of the mob and some business competitors are trying to kidnap her, worried about a war starting (due to events in Russia), claiming I told her I was Jesus and her father was God when she was a child) and on and on.
 I have written her back to empathize with how worried she must feel, asked her not to worry, that she is safe, asked her to call me. Now she wants me to move out of my home so she can move into it (I still live in the same community she grew up in, and she says she wants to come here, but can’t if I am here) She claims I’m not her real mom and is calling me by my first name.

She’s been reaching out to other relatives too and wants me to send her phone numbers for others. I’ve told her she can come home and we will figure things out, that I love her, etc.

A friend of hers who is still in touch with her has messaged me several times today as she keeps calling him too.  She told him she has no money and is sad, alone and crying all day.  It is heart rending to hear this and not be able to help her.  Her last message tonight was to say we couldn’t speak until I’d called a bunch of relatives to pass on rude messages from her and then given her more phone numbers.  ‘Otherwise quite frankly, you are a c__t.’

Sorry this is long, but you can likely tell how disturbing this day has been. And I know others in this group have had similar experiences.  Here are a few questions where I’d really appreciate advice:

I have told her the obscene language is a boundary for me and, in the past, I’ve regularly blocked her for 24 hours in response.  She hasn’t used this language for about 4 months, and I think it’s another sign of the stress she’s now under due to her finances. I’ve been tempted to cut off financial support too, or at least say I will if there’s a reoccurrence of this language. I really struggle with this, as I don’t want to reward this obscene disrespectful language.  I think she is completely out of money - even for food at this point - although she’s made a big grocery purchase recently.  And she seems so incredibly unstable, I’m worried about adding even further stress.  She absolutely refuses to seek psychiatric help.  I’ve wondered about saying she has to get that help if she wants financial support from me too. I just feel like I can’t find the right place between supporting her (awful behavior and all) and enabling her so she doesn’t feel the need to get help, find work, etc. Advice?

Doing this all at a distance is so hard (she lives a five hour flight away from me, plus an hour drive on either end). She regularly says she doesn’t  want to see me, although was softening about this in the last few months, I thought.  She lives alone in a town where I know no one and has few friends left, as far as I can tell.  The one friend who reached out to me today says he thinks she needs an intervention and will completely change her mind about me, once she sees me and I hug her.  He thinks she is so lonely and is desperate for love. He seems to have a pretty good read on her and she trusts him.  But I’ve also had lots of advice not to surprise her, as everyone who I hear of who has done this with estranged adult children say it ended badly.  I really feel I need to see her and try to help her by being there in person, and the situation seems so desperate. This evening, I booked a flight for Wednesday. I can still cancel it. I haven’t told her as I think she would panic and maybe leave home if she thought I was coming there. I’m just am so torn about what the best thing to do is. Any advice appreciated - thank you!

[CC43]

Kindness, the situation sounds dire. This could be your daughter’s “bottom” when she realizes she needs therapy. If you decide to help her, I’d say that help should be conditioned upon her getting therapy, being respectful to you, and getting and keeping a job (when she’s not in therapy). She should want those things for herself. She can choose to do things her own way, but then you won’t help her any longer, because her choices aren’t healthy for her, and that distresses you.

If you withhold help, she will likely react poorly. If she self-harms, she could end up in the hospital, which might not be the worst outcome.

This is distressing. I’ve seen this scenario play out more than once.

[livednlearned]

All of our situations are unique even when we have many variables in common.

At a minimum, meeting with her friend and mental health response team might help you assess the situation in ways that are more meaningful and insightful when you're able to be there in person. From what you describe she seems to be having a psychotic episode.

Your instinct is to go to her. It might drive her toward estrangement but that can happen if you don't fly there too. She's not in a good place to be making smart decisions so it's up to the people around her to guide her. Whether she surrenders to that or not is up to her and hard to predict. Maybe when you're there others that are less emotionally activating for her can give her a choice about seeing you -- it may comfort her to know you're there even if she can't bring herself to see you. The thought she can't see the person she most desperately wants and needs might also break some resistance to getting help. She has to know she's creating the agony she desperately wants to escape. Who else will help her if not herself?

Most advice is autobiographical. People give others advice for things that worked for them. You can weigh it and consider it, but the only way to know if it was good advice is to apply it and test your hypothesis.

If it were me, I would go. And I would be prepared to not see her in person while hoping and praying the opposite occurs.

[SendingKindness]

Thanks to @CC43 and @livednlearned for the advice. It truly does seem dire to me, and yes, I also felt she was having a psychotic episode - likely stress-induced.

Late in the night, she sent me pictures of things she had found on Instagram, suggesting I was financially abusing her (because I’m sticking to a specific monthly amount of support for her) and that I am a Jekyll and Hyde parent. She seems to follow someone called jordanpickellcounselling, who provides tips for people dealing with ‘difficult parents’. I can see how some of her actions and comments are based on these tips. I really don’t think this is helpful - she just focuses in on some parts and then finds them in me somehow.I have repeated how much I love her, in response.

I am still on track to fly there and try to be prepared for several potential outcomes.

[CC43]

Hi Kindness,

At the end of the day you need to heed both your heart and your head.  If I were in your shoes, I'd go to her, but I'd be prepared to accept that your daughter might refuse to see you, as suggested by a previous commentator.  Based on my stepdaughter's experience, something similar played out--her father went to visit her when her situation seemed dire, but she refused to see him most of the visit.  Eventually, another crisis ensued, and she made the choice to come live with us for a time.

If your daughter refuses to see you, her "justification" might be because she hates you, and you might feel terrible about that.  However, I think that her convoluted thinking is part of the illness.  By refusing to see you, she's probably avoiding pain (retreating to the warm blanket).  She'd be avoiding judgment, a feeling of failure, an emotional outpouring.  She would be "protecting" herself by avoiding your "pressure" of love, support and working together to find a way forward.  She hates that she needs you desperately.  And in this state, she may become paranoid and suffer a temporary break from reality.

If she's really desperate, then eventually she might reluctantly accept your help.  But the timing is up to your daughter.  She might have to hit her bottom.  I think that's when you condition your help upon getting therapy, because it sounds like she really needs it.  It's her choice whether to accept your help and conditions or not.  You will love her either way, and you can tell her that.  Then she might feel she has a modicum of control.

In my stepdaughter's case, for years she railed against her father.  She accused him of atrocious things.  She blamed him for her own poor choices.  She asked to be left alone countless times.  She shut him out and refused to communicate with him for months on end.  She treated him so poorly that he was in despair.  But now, after therapy, she said he saved her life.  It took a lot of time and work, but things did turn around.  Now she's more stabilized and making progress with adult-level functioning.

[SendingKindness]

Thanks again to everyone for the advice! From what I can see, she is in psychosis now, and acting very irrationally, based on the texts I am getting.

I am still on track to make her a visit, but haven't told her for fear of further freaking her out. Haven't quite figured out how I am going to do this - arrive unannounced on her doorstep? Ask the Mobile Mental Health Team in her community to go with me? Let her know I'm in her town and would like to see her? Try to convince some of her last few friends to go with me? I realize no one can really answer this, but if anyone has any advice, it is so appreciated - there are so few groups that have any experience with these things. My friends and family are supportive of me, but none have experience dealing with BPD or psychosis.

Thanks and appreciation to everyone who has been so helpful so far!

[kells76]

Thanks again to everyone for the advice! From what I can see, she is in psychosis now, and acting very irrationally, based on the texts I am getting.

I am still on track to make her a visit, but haven't told her for fear of further freaking her out. Haven't quite figured out how I am going to do this - arrive unannounced on her doorstep? Ask the Mobile Mental Health Team in her community to go with me? Let her know I'm in her town and would like to see her? Try to convince some of her last few friends to go with me? I realize no one can really answer this, but if anyone has any advice, it is so appreciated - there are so few groups that have any experience with these things. My friends and family are supportive of me, but none have experience dealing with BPD or psychosis.

So sorry this is happening. Psychotic breaks are really difficult see happening in a loved one.

Your idea of contacting her community mental health team sounds smart -- it's something you can do even from afar. Give them a call, describe the situation, and see what they are willing to do. Maybe they would be willing to work with the possible approach of: you do fly out there and are available in town, but they make face to face contact with her and ask if she'd like you to be there. Or maybe they can work with you/be in phone contact with you, even if you don't fly out.

When my former BIL had a psychotic break, trust was huge. From what I heard (I wasn't in direct contact with him, but was part of the search party) there were only a few people he felt like he could trust while that was going on. There were other "trust variables", too, that weren't rational, like if you were wearing a "good" or a "bad" color.

If BPD is in the mix, then it seems like the closer the relationship, the higher the emotional intensity and possibility for dysregulation. My ex-BIL wouldn't communicate with my sister (his wife!) or their MC, but would talk to a couple of friends (one sketchy, one not).

It could be that your role is to be there in town, but not in direct contact with her, and coaching others (friends, MH team) from the sidelines? It's hard to know. Don't take this as a "decree from above" that you have to go to her town -- more just thinking thru the possibilities if you were to do that. It might be equally effective not to go; this is not easy stuff.

[livednlearned]

My friends and family are supportive of me, but none have experience dealing with BPD or psychosis.

When my stepdaughter experienced psychosis, my T described it as a form of communication -- it let people who loved her know she was operating outside capacity and needed real help.

My ex also experienced psychosis. It was hard to separate it from the alcohol and prescription pill cocktails but he showed up in family court with some odd beliefs and behaviors. His stress was in part triggered by being in family law court -- he was an attorney and I think the strain broke his capacity to function. As far as I know, once court dates subsided his psychosis ceased.

SD26, who was 16 at the time, got medication and treatment and probably most importantly, she found a loophole to get real psychiatric help, which her BPD mom was preventing from happening.

[lostingreatlakes]

Wow. I am so glad not to be alone; I was accused of being a narcissist, and I have been in therapy for years and on meds. OCD, you bet, Narcissist, nope.

It is comforting and sad to know I am not the one who is losing my mind.

[Ourworld]

Hello Kindness,
I really thought about how I would try and handle this with my now 38yo daughter, who cut me off 11 years ago and probably thinks I am a narcissist too!

I would suggest involving a professional disinterested person, such as a counselor(psychologist) when she’s ready for your response.
This could be a way to begin some family counseling to hopefully improve y’all’s relationship.
Ask is she would like for you to arrange it or if she prefers, as long as it is a professional counselor and not just one of her friends.

Just an idea.

I wish you the best!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SendingKindness]

Thanks again to all those who provided advice about my original question - being called a narcissist. Things have gone so much further in the past month, I thought I'd provide an update.

After I last wrote, my daughter was sending me increasingly bizarre messages - lots of paranoia and strange demands. Because she lives at such a distance from me, and I know so few people around her, it was getting increasingly worrying and hard to understand.

I did go try to visit her just before Easter, thinking I'd make a surprise visit and we'd have a reunion and maybe have an opportunity to reestablish our relationship. Boy was I overly-optimistic!  When I first arrived at my daughter's house, her roommate let me in as she was asleep. She slept for several more hours and I spoke to her roommate who told me she was afraid of my daughter and was moving out due to her erratic behaviour.

Eventually I went out for some food and on my return the roommate was barricaded in her bedroom (with her child) and my daughter was threatening them from outside. I've never heard her speak this way and she was banging the walls (also never seen this). When she realized I was in the house, she began to threaten me too, saying she wanted me to die. I left and called 911. The police helped the roommate and child leave, but did not apprehend my daughter. I was too afraid to return to her house on my own.

After a few more similar and concerning episodes, I eventually went through a court process to have my daughter apprehended for psychiatric evaluation (hardest thing I have ever done!). She was apprehended and was in hospital for a week, but eventually discharged as she did not meet the criteria to be held against her will and I believe refused all offers of therapy or treatment (I know little as they could not tell me without her permission).

I returned home after she was discharged as there didn't seem to be anything further I could do. She is of course, angry with me at this point, but also in an increasingly precarious situation. I discovered while I was there that some work colleagues had (on two separate occasions) taken her to hospital for emergency psychiatric treatment (she again left the hospital and could not be held against her will). One (a doctor) described her as having a psychotic break in a business meeting. Because she has worked as a consultant, she has no work security, no ability to find work (due to her behaviour) and no way of supporting herself. She was previously very successful, has her own home with a mortgage, etc and stands to lose it all, as far as I can see. I'm sure the threat of that is causing even more stress. She is completely unaware that her behaviour is causing her loss of work - she attributes this to various conspiracies that are working against her to prevent her from having an income.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what I might do to help her. She has only reached out to me with abusive obscene messages at this point, to the point where I blocked her temporarily. I am in touch with a few of her friends who said they will keep me up to date about her, but all are very concerned too. Other than worrying about her 24/7 there's seems to be little I can do, even if I was close by.

Sorry this is a bit long and probably depressing to read! If anyone has experience with this, or suggestions I am open to any at this point!

[kells76]

Oh, that is really difficult. I'm sorry she's falling apart and that you had to be involved so deeply.

I'm glad you have connections with her friends and that they agreed to keep you updated. I hope that provides some relief.

Have you had a chance to check out the book "I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help!" by Xavier Amador, PhD yet?

It was so helpful for getting in a headspace of how to communicate more effectively with persons who struggle with mental illness. It's written with schizophrenia in mind, but is applicable to situations where you have a family member who needs help but who won't accept it and who views you as an enemy.

I would highly recommend it for your situation. I think I got my copy at a local used bookstore for ≤$10.

[SendingKindness]

Thankyou yes I do have that book and the follow up one about being fluent in LEAP. I am reviewing them. I feeli understand the theory, but need practice to apply it in the moment.

[Maggie EF]

So much wisdom in SendingKindness post.

Loved "I think we all hold our breath a bit as we inch our way through these conversations." YES, I know I do.

"But it's realistic to know that the best-case scenario may be a temporary estrangement while she returns to baseline." This made me feel so relaxed. Feels like radical acceptance.

"Being a victim can feel like a warm blanket. It protects them from self-activating and returning to life." This feels true for us mothers too.

I'm going to look up and do some research on declarative language. I've never heard that phrase before and I want to learn more.