Had a very weird dream about my ex friend and karma

[roses89431]

Okay, I posted earlier but I wonder if any of you believe in karma- that what these people inflict on us will come back to them one day?

Also, I had a dream about my ex friend where I was yelling at her and she had tears in her eyes and so much pain- like a little girl- that freaked me out because usually I never remember my dreams.

Has this happened to anyone else? I am just struggling to get through all of this because in some ways I cared for her so much and I feel like I was just trash.

[killthedeerbaby]

Dreams are best analyzed by friends that share the same interests as yourself. They are able to objectify the symbols.

[innerspirit]

I've had some dreams about my X -- especially including the things that I couldn't say to him, the feelings (pain, anger, frustration) that I was prevented from saying to him in real, waking life.  It didn't feel so much like a balance of karma -- more of a relief to face him, even if just in my mind.  (It's said that the subconscious doesn't know the difference between dreams and reality.)

[2010]

I wonder if any of you believe in karma- that what these people inflict on us will come back to them one day?

Yes they are already getting their comeuppance - no, it is not Karmic.  Borderline is a personality disorder, not punishment and payment for past sins. Many people believe in a Westernized Karma of some type of revenge that comes to evil doers. This is a wrongful concept of Karma, but thinking of retribution this way (magical thinking) gives us relief from our anxiety about the wrongful treatment we receive from thought disordered people.

If the Westernized concept of Karmic retribution were true- and you are being mistreated at the moment, then you are having Karmic retribution delivered to you for something you did in your past.  All of this gets confusing when you realize that the Western conceptualization of karma really is about action and reaction. Karma doesn't have a beginning and an ending- it's a wheel.  It is an evolution of consciousness.  In Western theory, if something happens to bad people- it's because of their actions.  In Karma, if something happens to people- it's because of their actions. 

So to answer your question based on the Western concept of Karma,- will what is inflicted upon me come back to the Borderline to teach them a Karmic lesson?

Answer: Only if I am responsible enough in my personal conduct to walk away from them. And follow through with my evolution of consciousness when I have learned not to repeat my actions that created my suffering in the first place.  

[David Dare]

I personally don't believe in Karma.  My ex threw that in my face, "Karma's a hit_", after she leapt back into the arms (and bed) of her ex.  Lately I've been of the mindset that despite her lies and betrayal, I had this pain coming to me simply from not setting proper boundaries and "taking it" for so long, not from just her, but relationships and friendships that string way into my past.  So many people I should have walked away from, but never did until this encounter with the scandalous BPD mindfork blew the consequences wide open.  It had nothing to do with Karma, just a lesson I needed to learn the hard way.

Anyway, going off track.  I, too, had a dream of ex.  Like others before it, I can only really explain it as this sense of searching.  I don't remember the details, but in the dream I was searching for something, either for her or the escape from the hold she still has on me.  Then, in the dream, I received a phone call.  It's ex.  She says that me calling her all the time is getting really annoying.  In reality I hadn't called her in over a year.  I hung up on her, and basically go NC in my dream.  The description of the dream is simple, but I could feel it quite vividly, the anxiety, the longing, the need to disconnect once again. 

[BillP]

I haven't had a bad dream or a nightmare in 2 weeks. I gues I am starting to heal from this god-awful experience in my life.

I have been told, and read, many stories over the past few weeks regarding Karma. My question is, how do you know it's not... .life. Meaning, is it really Karma coming back to get the ex, or is it simply part of ones life. If that's true, then wouldn't what has happened to us also be considered Karma? As mentioned in an earlier post, maybe it's Karma brought to us for what we have done in the past. It's an interesting discussion for sure. I'm just not convinced yet.

Life is what you make of it, I believe, but if there's an exception, it would have to be for us who have lived with someone who has this illness. Let's face it, once they get their meathooks into you, your life is no longer yours. They control all facets of your life, and then, they seek to destroy you. I hate this illness!

[David Dare]

My take on Karma is the westernized version like 2010 describes.  Applied to the experience I had with BPDex, or in any given single experience, I just don't buy into the theory of Karmatic retribution.  It's too simple.  Bad things happen to good people.  Good things happen to bad people.  Good and bad, in and of themselves, are subjective terms.  I don't believe there is an equal distribution of good and bad, productive/destructive, positive/negative, etc, consequences simply based one's Karmatic output throughout their lifetime.  In general, maybe, but not precisely.  I certainly don't rely on Karma to grant me and others their just rewards.  That's just MHO.  The only rewards I'm concerned with nowadays are my own!

[innerspirit]

I think X was obsessed with karma, which extended to magical thinking to make real the paybacks to glorify or victimize himself, to punish others. 

X told me that God was doing the punishing -- so X no longer needed to confront a sexual abuser, his older male cousin.  Sadly, X interpreted as punishment the birth of an autistic son to the cousin and his wife.  The cousin got his supposed come-uppance at the horrific expense of an innocent new life.

[sunrise2010]

Sadly, life is unfair.

But, since the pattern these people use is always abandon everything - good people who love them, jobs, places etc. - I guess their behaviour punish them for what they do. They punish themselves - not only people who love them. And that's a sort of justice, not for us, but for them.

[roses89431]

Wow, thanks for all your replies. It really gave me a lot to think about. I do agree in the last post by Sunrise 2010  that BPD people do punish themselves when they throw away people that do love them. And I do agree with the other person that posted that the best thing to do is stay away- that it is the only way to teach them a lesson via karma. Karma can get kind of confusing if you really look into it, I think.

[BillP]

Sadly, life is unfair.

But, since the pattern these people use is always abandon everything - good people who love them, jobs, places etc. - I guess their behaviour punish them for what they do. They punish themselves - not only people who love them. And that's a sort of justice, not for us, but for them.

I don't know if those with BPD see it as self punishment... And if so, when my ex says she is a Monster, and doesn't deserve to be loved, does that mean her throwing me out of her house is her way of punishing herself? I don't think so, especially now that's she's in the honeymoon phase with the new guy. JMHO

[David Dare]

I've been thinking about Karma since reading this post, trying to come up with the formula I use in my own observations of life.  I think "empathetical conscientiousness" (EC) is my equivalent of Karma. 

Those who are more empathetically conscientious (EC) are aware of how their actions affect others, how others' actions affect them, and their empathy for how people treat one another (similarly to the golden rule) is reflected back to them as a form of Karma.  If an EC person helps or is receiving help, positive Karma evenly flows back and forth.  If an EC person is harming or being harmed, negative Karma is evenly flowing back and forth. 

However, someone who is not EC does not receive and distribute karma in a manner that a EC person does.  They have no qualm about dishing out harm or taking others kind deeds for granted due to their lack of EC.  Karma is not evenly distributed.

In the realm of BPD, "self" is synonymous with "conscience", so to apply a concept of "evenly distributed Karma" with someone with a lack of sense of self would be inappropriate.  Instead of an even flow of Karma, like a smooth line, it would be more jagged like a seismograph during an earthquake with deep positive peaks and negative valleys.  We perceive tidal waves disguised as placid ponds.  We think we are receiving "normal" but are really receiving "crazy".  What we want is Karma, but what we get is amraK, arKam or Ramma Kamma Rim Rom. 

So, in summary, applying Karma as a one-size-fits-all theory is not possible due to the varying levels of empathetical conscientiousness in each person.  We know we were good to them.  We know what we got in return.  We know who we are.  We know they don't know who they are.  Just MHO.

[sunrise2010]

Sadly, life is unfair.

But, since the pattern these people use is always abandon everything - good people who love them, jobs, places etc. - I guess their behaviour punish them for what they do. They punish themselves - not only people who love them. And that's a sort of justice, not for us, but for them.

I don't know if those with BPD see it as self punishment... And if so, when my ex says she is a Monster, and doesn't deserve to be loved, does that mean her throwing me out of her house is her way of punishing herself? I don't think so, especially now that's she's in the honeymoon phase with the new guy. JMHO

Bill, I don’t think BPD people see it as self-punishment. They could see it only if they could reflect on themselves and their behaviour, fell the responsability for their actions. But, in the end, they do punish themselves throwing away people who love them, and all the good things life give to them. Yes, they punish you, but punish also themselves losing things so precious for their lives.

[BillP]

Bill, I don’t think BPD people see it as self-punishment. They could see it only if they could reflect on themselves and their behaviour, fell the responsability for their actions. But, in the end, they do punish themselves throwing away people who love them, and all the good things life give to them. Yes, they punish you, but punish also themselves losing things so precious for their lives.


Sunrise, maybe I'm missing the point here, but, if they discard those who only want to good for them, and they move onto someone else, how are they punishimg themselves? It would seem as though it's not punishment for them. It's more a cold calculating mindset they have. Without the understanding of the damage they inflict on others.

[sunrise2010]

Bill, I don’t think BPD people see it as self-punishment. They could see it only if they could reflect on themselves and their behaviour, fell the responsability for their actions. But, in the end, they do punish themselves throwing away people who love them, and all the good things life give to them. Yes, they punish you, but punish also themselves losing things so precious for their lives.


Sunrise, maybe I'm missing the point here, but, if they discard those who only want to good for them, and they move onto someone else, how are they punishimg themselves? It would seem as though it's not punishment for them. It's more a cold calculating mindset they have. Without the understanding of the damage they inflict on others.

Because they destroy the good things they build, the good things life gives to them. It's self-sabotage. When you want to build but can't do it and always destroy, destroy the things you have built. What is it? Inside of them these people think they must be abandoned, they don't deserve to be loved, and in fact they destroy the r/s because they are sure nothing lasts, they don't deserve to be loved. It's their pattern. 

[David Dare]

I hear ya, BillP.

Perhaps to a pwBPD, punishment IS love, and that's why they continue the cycle. And maybe that's why they don't seem phased by it, too.  I say "seem" because I think they do realize somewhere in their head that they abused us, but they stuff it deep down.  When I faced my ex for the last time, about a month after being severely betrayed (found her with her x on a night I had to fly out of town), she was really nervous.  I pulled up at her work place without notifying her ahead of time and we were alone together.  I think she expected me to smack her around.  She wasn't expecting me to visit her, that's for sure.  But, while she was nervous, she was also nonchalant, like nothing ever happened.  It was so strange!

It's really a matter of perception.  Punishment doesn't mean the same thing to them as it does us.  For example, some people will view how they treated us with sympathy, and some people will think we deserved it.

[innerspirit]

Perhaps to a pwBPD, punishment IS love, and that's why they continue the cycle.

X couldn't make the separation between something that was happening to me vs. to him.  So maybe in a deep-down twisted way he was living out his own version of karma -- as obsessed as he was with a supposed sense of checks and balances.  Maybe he sensed that he needed or deserved punishment, therefore projected it onto me, but continued, of course, to play the victim.

And maybe that's why they don't seem phased by it, too.  I say "seem" because I think they do realize somewhere in their head that they abused us, but they stuff it deep down. 

And in playing the martryed victim, he was HUGELY phased by what he perceived as punishment from me.  I was judging Mr. Perfect as wrong and that was an earth-shaking threat to his narcissism.

And since X was sexually molested in his childhood and adolescence, he OWNED the word abused.  I wasn't even allowed to use it to describe how I was feeling.  I think he was horrified by that part of it all -- that in fact he was projecting it onto me.  Like so many other things, if it was never acknowledged, then maybe it --- and the resultant karma -- would go away.

[roses89431]

After reading all of these replies, I do think karma is not so cut and dry with people with BPD. It was interesting reading the exchange between Bill and Sunrise and also David Dare's post. I do think that with my ex boss she does have that cold, calculating mindset that was described. She may very well be blind to the face that she trashed someone who cared for her. In the end, whether she ever realizes it or not she did punish herself and gave herself a loss by dumping me. Maybe along the way some of these people do realize what they do? I do agree with David Dare that some people with BPD do realize they mistreat you and stuff it deep down. I know at times my ex boss would have fleeting moments when she realized that she went too far.