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Author Topic: Are they sociopaths?  (Read 450 times)
Mystic
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« on: November 19, 2010, 03:33:47 PM »

Was reading an article on sociopaths yesterday and all the indicators were there.  Are people with BPD sociopathic?  Really from my point of view I'm not seeing anything of a conscience... .
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Gavilan

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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2010, 03:36:57 PM »

Almost. My BPD ex feels guilt but only occasionally and usually long after the event. Overall they feel nothing but self loathing
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roses89431
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2010, 05:00:49 PM »

I agree with the previous reply. They are not 100 percent sociopaths because I have found that at times they do feel guilty for their behavior but it is usually months or years down the road. Also, I think if they do feel true remorse a lot of people with BPD wouldn't have the guts to admit it.
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PhoenixBorn
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2010, 05:16:21 PM »

I have more or less asked the same question on these boards.  Personally I see no difference.  I remember reading somewhere that men are more likely to be diagnosed as sociopathic and women borderline.  My xBPDp did simulate emotion and remorse... .Do I think she felt it?  No, well certainly not like me and her actions show no conscience.
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Mystic
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2010, 05:19:30 PM »

I was just talking about this with a friend... .and I guess either way it's a lose/lose... .

Either they have a conscience, in which case they do what they do fully knowing the pain they cause and they don't care... .which kind of makes them monsters... .

or... .

they have no conscience, which really makes them frightening. 

Either way ... .run like hell. 
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« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2010, 07:31:03 PM »

"The social psychology of this century reveals a major lesson: often it is not so much the kind of person a man is, as the kind of situation in which he finds himself that determines how he will act." –Stanley Milgram, 1974

If a person in a position of authority ordered you to deliver a 400-volt electrical shock to another person, would you follow orders? Most people would answer this question with an adamant no, but Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram conducted a series of obedience experiments during the 1960s that demonstrated surprising results. These experiments offer a powerful and disturbing look into the power of authority and obedience.

Why did so many of the participants in this experiment perform a seemingly sadistic act on the instruction of an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are a number of situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience. First on the list was:

* The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.

Milgram’s experiment has become a classic in psychology, demonstrating the dangers of obedience. While this experiment suggests that situational variables have a stronger sway than personality factors in determining obedience, other psychologists argue that obedience is heavily influenced by both external and internal factors, such as personal beliefs and overall temperament." Milgram, S. (1974). Obedience to authority: An experimental view. Harpercollins

The analogy in the Milgrim experiment is that if normal, non-disordered people betray their empathy for other people, in order to submit to authority- then surely there is some implication to the levels that the "authority figure" exists intraphysically in our psyche.

While we all have authority figures, (while at work, etc.)- why do our feelings about them matter to us so much that we will become maladaptive to our concept of what we know is right and wrong?  The idea of empathy really is the golden rule of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Why did so many people go against the golden rule in the Milgrim experiment- knowing full well that it might mean the same outcome for themselves?

It is the failure of empathy that really matters here and why we betray it in order to please others. In other words, why we betray people for how we falsely appear in front of authority figures. This is the basis for our "false self."

Milgrims experiment was an honest to goodness dilemma for our false selves; the persona we “want to be.” People either mirrored and imitated the authority figure and became cruel- delivering shock after shock, or they facilitated the authority as its disciple, asking questions of it while still following orders or they defended against it and just up and walked away. The latter meaning they might have committed “false self suicide” to break away. (The people who walked away, were alone and separate- yet resolved to do the right thing in spite of how they appeared to others.)

Now the question has to be asked of everyone involved: Are you thinking for yourself? or Are you following others?

Why is it that some people easily threw empathy out the window? Why did some people identify with the cruel leader? Why did some identify as a follower, and why did some refuse to identify at all? Did many of these people have personality disorders? If so, then a closer evaluation of the concept of authority and more importantly, what it means to an individual, needed to be addressed.

Obviously these people had an idea about authority. Many were raised since childhood with this cruel authority figure in their heads. What would be the differences? Would they identify with the punished or the punisher? Would they become like the punisher- with a full time persona of psychopathy? Or would they imitate and mirror the cruel leader like a Narcissist to feel more powerful? or would they be anxious and identify with both the punished and the punisher like the Borderline, trying to identify with the cruel leader but also refusing to identify with it at other times- in essence, failing to make a decision but staying and acting like an anxious slave?

What does that mean, “trying to identify with the cruel leader but also refusing to identify with it at other times?” It means that the Borderline exists with two part time selves. The Borderline has the cruel authority figure in their personality as a part time self. This part time self is punitive and punishing and exists to torture because of the Borderline’s internal torture. That torture is over the failure to separate and individuate and become “whole.” In the confusion surrounding the concept of self, the Borderline is stuck in the in-between- a dissociative state of frozen fear and continuous attempts at the perception of success. That half is ideal, and they long for that half to become whole- searching for rewarding, happy, wonderful, perfect full-time people to mirror that part-time self in the process.  That is rewarding to them- that is advancement. It never succeeds.

Unfortunately, the other half, the bad, cruel, punishing half, is just as strong as the good half. Each half is a weak and damaged self that the Borderline "borderlines" in- between. They swing like a pendulum back and forth and give the appearance of being bi-polar to some diagnostics. It is an up and down illusion.

At times, that they are caring and sweet, at others extremely sociopathic and lacking empathy. The see-saw effect is in the very heart of the tragedy of the human condition for many of us, but in Borderline it is an internal drive function.  The drive is the movement between both selves to fend off anxiety. Up, down, back, forth, left, right, black, white... .

However one might describe their underdeveloped soul, the attraction for most people is the initial mirroring and good feelings that arise from *your* empathy and concern when you are chosen as a rewarding object. You’ll want to help this person- they appear to need your help too- but only to use you (as you will find out later) in the process of splitting you into the bad authority figure that lives within them.  It is a disorder.

The effects of this rupture during the phase of separation-individuation from child development now translates into disruption of your life (and others) as you serve the Borderline as a stand-in while he/she replicates you as the cruel leader in their mind.  Your reactions contribute to your concept of sociopathic, failed empathy. “Sociopathic” because the disorder relies on your (and others) participation and your (and others) pity to become a compulsive drama. Hence, the subsequent dilemma: what happened to the nice person you once saw- and surely you can get that person to come back with your participation? That's the "socio" part of the pathology. Borderlines are Borderline with the help of other people.

Now think of the famous Milgrim experiment where people were willing to put others through extreme pain because they were told to press the button in the cubicle. That’s what you are dealing with in Borderline. The participants who obeyed the order to shock others had a failure of empathy, and a failure to pay attention to their real selves. The outcome of this is still there to be seen in so much of human behavior, but in Borderline personality it is hidden.  It is a guaranteed shock coming your way because this "physical presence of an authority figure that dramatically increased compliance" for pushing the lever to shock you is actually a MENTAL presence.  You cannot see this authority figure in their minds- you can only get blasted for it.

Your failure to get out of the way becomes your false self. They have mirrored you and you have projected upon them your good. There isn’t enough good in the World to stop the split bad part from coming back into play. You are going to get zapped.  Whether or not you are going to change this false self from repeating the process is up to you.

To quote a previous chapter: “Milgrims experiment was an honest to goodness dilemma for our false selves; the persona we “want to be.” People either mirrored and imitated the authority figure and became cruel- delivering shock after shock, or they facilitated the authority as its disciple, asking questions of it while still following orders or they defended against it and just up and walked away. The latter meaning they might have committed “false self suicide” to break away. (The people who walked away, were alone and separate- yet resolved to do the right thing in spite of how they appeared to others.)”

You can either fight back by being cruel yourself, -ask questions while still participating in the drama and allowing the shocks to continue- or  you can walk away. The people who walked away “resolved to do the right thing in spite of how they appeared to others.”

Learning about your false self and how you play along is a vital element of becoming a fully responsible human being, and of the healthy development of a Real Self.  The Real Self can step outside of the Milgrim box and see the set-up for what it is.  The false self needs more time- it is stubborn. It's worked all these years and now it doesn't.

Once you understand how you are responding with your false self to the Borderline failure of empathy-once you recognize the cautionary contra-indications you've ignored- you’ll stop ignoring them and stop participating in the back and forth of the disorder.  Eventually, you’ll stop allowing that person to apply an electric shock to you and they will go apply it to someone else. You will move beyond the symptomatic false self relationship toward your own real improvement and begin to walk the path of self-directed, self-actualized dignity.  In short, you will become a Real Self.  That begins with letting go of the outcome for the Borderline. No contact = no electric shock. Let go. Begin.

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Mystic
formerly Livia
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« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2010, 09:37:17 PM »

Thank you, 2010.  What a compelling explanation.  You've made some sense of the impossible... .
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