Selective Memory? Or intentionally forget?

[discardedbf]

Hi All

I have been off this thing for quite a well, immersed myself in work and training and was doing real well. In the past couple of days i have seen photos of her and began to reminisce on the relationship.

I do not want her back dont get me wrong, she is toxic i know that! however i do still have a soft spot for her... she is the girl who sat next to me at the theatre and held my hand, ate ice cream with on the beach, woke up at 5am to watch me surf, went on holidays with, shared many laughs and good times. So i remember all this and when i do it does make me somewhat sad... like geeez there was some real good in there and i could never hate her.

My question is, since the break up i have had to deal with all kinds of crazy... .like made up legal threats, stuffed dumped on the lawn, painted black as can be, etc... .i wont list them all.

It has got to a point where she hates me, detests me and thinks im the anti-christ. So does the BPD have the capacity to reflect? like is there ever a moment where she will go - ohh yeah he took me on 5 star holidays, was there for me when i was in hospital when no one else was, whenever i needed him he was there, whatever i wanted i got? he is the same guy who i was with every day for 2 yrs - who loved me?

Or is she simply consumed with hatred towards me and beleives i am evil and treated her badly?

I dont understand i always say it is what it is... these things happened, she looked at me said i love you i will forever now it is meaningless? Are they really that capable of erasing their memory? i didnt think it was humanly possible.

[Sabine]

I'd like to know that one too. I've heard of the 'out of sight' out of mind, but ya, do they erase their memories of the past completely?

Also, what about things that were said? Like, do they forget things that they say? I know mine had an awful memory. Once he asked to read a book I had on my shelf... .I told him he already read it! He didn't believe me?

I don't get it either... .sorry to cut in, but I wonder too

[Gladto be away]

I think its selective memory. It's easy for them to forget, better for them to forget. Then they don't have to feel guilty or feel the shame of them being screwed up.

I broke NC and was asked for friendship. He always said and resaid that our chapters weren't over, they were just going to be different. I guess he forgot the other day, forgot about the promises he made to be my friend, as I made promises to be his friend because we loved each other and even though we couldn't work we were still in love with each other.

[Clearmind]

If in a dysregulated state they don't remember. They are feeling tremendous pain and hurt from their own core trauma and the 'feeling' of that trauma is relived in that moment. What they say at that point, often hurtful is the abandoned child.

They have an iron clad memory for what we say - whole filing cabinet of ammunition. They get use to needing to remember because they so use to being misunderstood. Hence the reason why BPDs keep emails, texts, chat transcripts.

[zoso80]

Hi Discardedbf,

Trying to understand BPDs along with what and why they do things can drive a person to absolute madness.

From your post, it sounds like a combination of idealization that came to an end along with abandonment fears triggered her. Can you change any of it? No. It's her mental condition.

The abandonment fears can kick in automatically painting you blacker than death at the break up. BPDs have a strong tendency to revise and rewrite history. They can't be viewed as bad, flawed or inadequate. It's not them, it's YOU. Taking ownership in their half of the failure of the relationship is too much for them. It would require them to introspect and learn. Something it seems is in rare form amongst BPDs. It's easier to blame and project it away.

My DxBPDgf had a 'terrible' memory. Conversations, agreements, understandings, plans: they all were subject to being forgotten. It was impossible to make any plan of any nature with her. It would simply not exist outside of a few minutes. The first few times I reacted with astonishment that she didn't remember while finalizing well discussed plans.  She even forgot her child's birthday. I always considered it to be a coping mechanism and learned behavior in her case. Forgetting is how she doesn't remember painful things and tames the dysregulation. I didn't think it was a neurological problem.

Since my breakup, DxBPDgf has painted me as a verbal abuser and mentally ill. Classic deflection and blame BPD's engage in. All that to keep her fragile sense of self whole that she was the honorable and good person.  Pretty sad.

Love isn't something, in my view a BPD experiences like we do. Love is need to them. Looking at it that way, you understand them a bit more. When a BPD coos about love, they are using the target for something.  You are satisfying a need of theirs. Your needs? Forget it. Empathy and understanding is not a two way street.

It's been said after the 'honeymoon' phase, that the real BPD comes out. I agree. That's when the fit hits the shan. The non gets shellshocked and the BPD comes into full hideous view.

It doesn't change your feelings though. It's something us as survivors of a BPD have to find peace through time and understanding. Its taken me almost a year to get this introspected point with my exBPD.

[Beach_Babe]

It's been said after the 'honeymoon' phase, that the real BPD comes out.

Wow, how frightening!

[jhan6120]

No, BPD's don't have the capacity for proper Self-Reflection. They're mentally ill. They operating from a different chip-set than NON's.

Would sane people pull the crap they do on a regular basis? No.

Example:

My ex udBPDgf idealized me as the greatest thing since sliced bread, then the VERY NEXT DAY, started an argument with my brother in a hospital parking lot RIGHT AFTER my mother had life-or-death surgery. Who does that? an INSANE person.

They lock the insane up for a reason.

[Why Why Why]

They are human beings just like the rest of us, so I do not believe they can INTENTIONALLY forget as though they were a computer and material can be deleted.

Their way of survival is geared towards reducing/removing any feelings of guilt, shame, fear, pain and hurt.  Her brain will distort memories so that you appear to be the perpetrator, therein removing any feeling of guilt or shame on her end.  I don't think she purposely does this, it's just a sub-conscious thing that happens in order for her to self-preserve.  It's kind of like ABS on a car, it'll kick in when needed to save the car but you can't kick it in whenever you want.

[harlemgurl]

Hmmmm... .

Taking a stab at this I would say that they don't necessarily "forget" as much as they need to remember it differently when painting us black. They need to be victim to survive.  What they are skilled at is disassociation which is a form of repression.  But feelings, thoughts and memories can't *poof* disappear; they are a part of our humanity. Emotions are powerful in that they are palpable; they hold weight. And emotions and feelings can't be erased disordered or not.

They know the differences between the trail of ex's they collect in a jar and they know which ones "stand out" the most for them; however in the end it doesn't matter because we didn't save them from themselves and that's what they're on the constant survival fantasy hunt for: a rescuer. Can they miss us and what we did for them? Sure. They know the good daddy's and mommy's from the mediocre/not so good... .

They may have the ability to paint us black but they aren't all powerful in the way we think they are in erasing us. Let's not confuse eradication with their powerful dissociative skills. They have tons of repressed memories and those memories lay dormant and often terrorize them when they least expect it; this is especially because they lack the capacity to mourn and grieve. If you can't mourn or grieve you don't grow. This is why they remain stunted. They may physically move on and abandon; but they never detach or let go.

I believe in my heart that the inability to fully let go is the same for NON's. The only difference between us and them is the level of emotional dysfunction. We're emotionally unhealthy; they are severely emotionally damaged and consequently disordered.

I suspect that the people on these forums are truly good people and generous codependent givers. We are the ones that got close enough to them with our love, vulnerability and intimacy for them to abuse and bail. There's no way on God's green earth they can forget that. But they are riddled with shame, guilt and low self-worth and esteem and that takes precedence over any good we've done for them.

We have to remember that they are starring in a badly damaged script that was written long before we came into the picture. But yes. Like hell; they remember.

HG

[2010]

Or is she simply consumed with hatred towards me and beleives i am evil and treated her badly?

discardedbf, you are describing the "angry child."  The "angry child" is one of four responses used as coping mechanisms in Borderline personality disorder. The "angry child" is impulsively venting the fury that they have tried to contain while trying to get their needs met by others. A perceived failure of those needs being met creates anger.

The other three modes used as coping mechanisms in Borderline personality are; 2) the abandoned child, 3) the punitive parent and 4) the detached protector –each of the last three all work to keep these emotional needs suppressed and the angry child hidden.

After awhile these emotional needs accumulate and a Borderline feels a growing sense of frustration and pressure building inside. The Borderline may say something like: “I feel something building up inside of me.” The pressure builds, some last straw event happens and the Borderline flips into angry child mode. When they are in this mode they vent their anger in inappropriate ways because they were never taught how to express their needs in a validating environment. The “angry child” wishes to get revenge or hurt another person by either hurting them or hurting themselves and saying, "see what you made me do?" These inappropriate actions make them seem entitled or spoiled, however the underlying basis for these actions are desperate attempts to get their basic emotional needs met.

(As quoted on Redberry’s thread on "emotionless" -

Borderlines are made, not born. They are children of invalidating environments and because of that have been failed in their “presumed ability” to react and respond to both challenges *and* opportunities. They do not take the initiative to solve their problems themselves because they feel directed upon by others as a working hypothesis. This is the cause of the deficient sense of self.  That leaves them feeling as though they are at the mercy of others who (they feel) try to control them in ways that replicates the early childhood environment and they utilize a intrapsychic punitive parent to scapegoat their failures to become a healthy self sufficient adult.

The worst part of this disorder is that it's a slow boil in relationships and hence, we even fail to recognize the existence of the problem until it’s too late. We are hooked into deciphering the mood states. Borderline behavior becomes pathology when the distorted perceptions fuel the lack of self. The self becomes persecuted and hopeless, leaving onlookers to stand by in dismay- both sides play significant roles called "Schemas."

So in order to interpret the 4 BPD states, let’s look at what Jeffrey Young says in his Schema therapy:

Of the four states, there are two children and two adults; one child is angry and the other child is abandoned. They move back and forth in interpersonal relationships with clinging and hating behaviors. A third mechanism, the punitive parent (deficient ego) is the adult interpretation of their parent that scolds them in their thoughts. That parent scapegoats them and punishes them for their perceived failures, just like in childhood. The fourth state is the detached protector, an adult wax figure zombie who tries to quiet everyone and everything with controlled contraction.

The emotional states:

1) The angry child. The angry child is born out of a family environment that is unsafe and unstable. Emotional (verbal) or actual physical abuse. One parent may abuse while the other denies and enables the abuse (earliest triangulation (read definition).) Instead of feeling secure, the attachment to the parent is terrifying and unstable.

2) The abandoned child. The abandoned child is born out of a family environment that is depriving. Parental nurturing- physical warmth, empathy, emotional closeness and support, guidance, protection- is *absent* or deficient. Emotionally, the child feels alone.

3) The punitive parent. The punitive parent is born out of a family environment that is harshly punitive and rejecting. Children with BPD grow up in families that are critical and rejecting of them, harshly punitive when they make mistakes and unforgiving. The outcome of this is internalized and exists as personal judgment.

4) The detached protector. The detached protector is born out of a family environment that is subjugating. The family suppresses the needs and feelings of the child.  Usually there are implicit rules about what a child can and cannot say and therefore, feel. The child gets the message; “don’t show what you feel. Don’t cry when you are hurt. Don’t get angry and don’t ask for what you want. Don’t be vulnerable or real- just be who <<we>>want you to be.” Expressions by the child of emotional pain - particularly sadness or anger -often make the parent angry and lead to punishment or withdrawal- so the child contracts into a shell.

It is said by Young, that Borderlines enter therapy in a detached protector state- the therapist then must try to get through the distrust and encourage the vulnerable child states to emerge while discouraging the punitive parent.   The child states are more open than the detached protector and the angry child state is the healthiest.

When a BPD patient is suicidal or parasuicidal, the therapist must determine which state the patient is in and approach the crisis from that staNPDoint. All states have different reasons for despair; the “punitive parent” state wishes to punish the patient, the “abandoned child” wishes to end the unbearable loneliness, the “angry child” wishes to get revenge or hurt another person and the “detached protector” attempts to distract from the emotional pain by causing their own physical pain in order to pierce the numbness and feel something.

Borderlines repetitiously and compulsively re-work these maladaptive schemas. www.schematherapy.com/Borderline%20slides%20Feb%202004%20a_files/frame.htm

[truly amazed]

Hi,

Interesting. Trying to take logic to someone who suffers from BPD ... .is not possible.

My own experience which I am sure differs from some.

They dont intentionally forget as why why why said ... .

I do not believe they can INTENTIONALLY forget as though they were a computer and material can be deleted.

Their way of survival is geared towards reducing/removing any feelings of guilt, shame, fear, pain and hurt.  

Same if not similar to Harlem girls great post ... .

What they are skilled at is disassociation which is a form of repression. But feelings, thoughts and memories can't *poof* disappear; they are a part of our humanity. Emotions are powerful in that they are palpable; they hold weight. And emotions and feelings can't be erased disordered or not.

I agree with the views ... .

They are of course human and repress to survive. Memories I am not sure are there however. At least not on the surface. To actually reflect on them is not possible for someone with BPD. To face up to what they have done and learn and feel regret and change other than on the surface was something that was lacking in my own person W BPD.

Sure we sometimes get an apology for a rage session or when they go too far. However ... .the abuse, manipulation, rage does not stop or change. In their mind history is re written and it becomes your fault as to why something happened. It is then justified their actions however awful.

If you keep telling yourself this is what happened vs reality eventually you believe it yourself.


Not too drone on but post RS with BPD person ... .she is and was ill. Not possible to change her ever as she is high funtioning Pw BPD. I had not heard of it till post RS and it explained a lot. I found out her real history and not the one served to me. Putting all the pieces together was chilling. One side of the story from her and then three different versions from those very close to her.

Three seperate versions ... .different people ... .virtually no connection ... .but same basically in the facts vs the PW BPD ... .MY ex was convinced of her version totally ... .facts and untainted by emotions from three very close to the past contradicted reality.


The examples are NOT IMPORTANT. The pattern of this re writing of facts and history was and is. It went from material things to sexual infidelity to actually what happened and caused confrontations. It went and does go everywhere.

What we experience in a BPD RS is totally different to what they experience and its a case of history being totally re written in most cases to justify in their mind ... .BPD mind why they acted the way they did.


As a non BPD person and knowing factually what happened vs where they have taken their version of reality is disturbing. I sadly was told the fault of the last 20 or so rage sessions WERE ALL MY FAULT. At the time I was so twisted and depressed I actually believed it. She certainly did and justified her actions. Of course there is no excuse for violence ... .or threats ... .or abuse emotionally or blackmail or all the other rubbish.



People with BPD do I believe re write history in any way they like to justify their actions.

Is there ever any excuse to hit your partner ? Destroy their property ? Spit on them ? Threaten them ? Demean them in the cruelest of ways ?

There is no excuse ... .none. Yes we endured it for various reasons ... .but there is no justification ever for acts of this type. None.

Some of the sickest acts of history I am sure have similar justifications but reality is there is ZERO justification for them.

All good ... .healing and loving again for me ... .

Big smile if you read this and have a great day  

We are post RS with  a person who has an illness which sadly can justify anything.


Outside for me and smell the roses  

[Munch]

This is my experience after 34 years.  They can pull a sentence you made 10 years ago and make it fit their argument today.  There is not logic, no reason, it just fits how they want to portray you at any given moment.  They have to be right or it's utter chaos in the heads.  So anything goes basically.  It's that simple to me.  Don't try and make sense of it.  It doesn't, you can make yourself crazy trying.  I've said it before - I'm surprised my brain didn't blow up after all this.  It was really as simple as I've stated above to me now.  So my brain is still intact. Thank God

Munchxo

[jhan6120]

I say what the hell is the difference, if it has such a crappy effect on me? Why deal with it if I have a choice not to?

I got my own problems, thanks.

HER > CURB = ME GETTING ON WITH LIFE.

No sympathy here. World keeps turning.

[diotima]

He always said and resaid that our chapters weren't over, they were just going to be different.

Can't tell you how many times I heard this crap after a break up and attempt to recycle. "We have to start over, a new chapter," or "we can be friends and work together," etc.

As for the lying and history rewriting: the same as what you all are saying. The disorder is cognitive; whatever emotion they are feeling determines how they will put a narrative together.

The “angry child” wishes to get revenge or hurt another person by either hurting them or hurting themselves and saying, "see what you made me do?"

Yes, when my ex went off with the last woman when my attention had to be more on family matters than on him, it was my fault! He managed to rewrite history as such. Unbelievable.

Diotima

[zoso80]

I'd forgotten about that! That happened to me.

"We should start going on dates, just us, we'll get back to where we should be."

 

This was before the break up. Attempting to recycle already.

 

Can't tell you how many times I heard this crap after a break up and attempt to recycle. "We have to start over, a new chapter," or "we can be friends and work together," etc.

[Sabine]

We had 'do overs' within the first 2 months of going out... .gee and I wondered then what the heck? This was just the beginning of a series of 'do overs'... .until we were 'over done'   

[Sir5r]

25 years of experience with my BPDw tells me it's selective memory manipulation of the facts to suit them. When pressed with the impossibility of what she has said backed up with facts she backs down and admits the truth.

I have dealt with some serious issues and long held truths that I challenged and the truth came out when pressed.

Like children caught in lies and presented with irrefutable facts they Have no choiche but to come clean. It is like pulling teeth though.


Sir5r

[zoso80]

Yup,  my saying I was going to have her arrested for identify theft and fraud all of a sudden made her more amenable to working together. Filing a police report and a detective calling and spooking her showed I wasn't kidding.

Leverage was paramount to getting anywhere with DxBPDgf. I hated operating like that. If I didn't, she would fight, hiss, strike and scream. Nothing would change though. When I had her dead to rights. She went into pleading mode and woman'd up.

I'm so glad I've been NC for 10 months.  BEST. DECISION. EVER.

25 years of experience with my BPDw tells me it's selective memory manipulation of the facts to suit them. When pressed with the impossibility of what she has said backed up with facts she backs down and admits the truth.

I have dealt with some serious issues and long held truths that I challenged and the truth came out when pressed.

Like children caught in lies and presented with irrefutable facts they Have no choiche but to come clean. It is like pulling teeth though.


Sir5r

[diotima]

I'm so glad I've been NC for 10 months.  BEST. DECISION. EVER.

Let's see: that means I have 6 1/2 months to go before I am feeling MUCH better! Makes me feel better already. I hope it holds!

Diotima

[zoso80]

Just stopping being used and manipulated is a great start.

You're well on you way too!  

I think I terrified my DxBPDgf out of contact. She told me, 'I'll be here whenever you decide to be friends.'  Between my body language and the look of disgust on my face, she on some level knows to initiate contact with me would risk a strong rebuke and complete rejection. It wouldn't be unicorns, jellybellys and beanie babies. It'd be something like, ':)ON'T bother me again, EVER.'

Then click.

I don't relish being brutal like that. The damage that woman inflicted on me though, I owe it to myself to care for me and keep her toxicity out of my life!

I'm so glad I've been NC for 10 months.  BEST. DECISION. EVER.

Let's see: that means I have 6 1/2 months to go before I am feeling MUCH better! Makes me feel better already. I hope it holds!

Diotima

[jhan6120]

Just stopping being used and manipulated is a great start.

You're well on you way too!  

I think I terrified my DxBPDgf out of contact. She told me, 'I'll be here whenever you decide to be friends.'  Between my body language and the look of disgust on my face, she on some level knows to initiate contact with me would risk a strong rebuke and complete rejection. It wouldn't be unicorns, jellybellys and beanie babies. It'd be something like, ':)ON'T bother me again, EVER.'

Then click.

I don't relish being brutal like that. The damage that woman inflicted on me though, I owe it to myself to care for me and keep her toxicity out of my life!

I'm so glad I've been NC for 10 months.  BEST. DECISION. EVER.

Let's see: that means I have 6 1/2 months to go before I am feeling MUCH better! Makes me feel better already. I hope it holds!

Diotima

I did the SAME THING. The third and final time I booted my ex udBPDgf, I RAGED at her and called her every name in the book. I was ashamed of my behavior until I realized that the first two times I tried to break up with her like a human being, she easily wheedled her way back in. I realize now that the third time, I was trying to scare her away for good. I hope I’ve done that.

THEREFORE . . . I do not feel bad about the way I finally ended it. I owe no one apologies. As long as she goes away FOREVER.

PWBPD have a real knack for drawing out the worst in people.

[doublebind]

re: raging to break up.  I've often wondered what the reaction would be if I started acting like he does.  As it is, he does not like ANY hint of negative emotion or mood from me.  I've always been the picture of reasonableness, never defend myself angrily, never name call back, never argue, defuse, defuse, defuse.  Meanwhile, rage, projection, delusion, nonsense, lies, nastiness, manipulation, name calling from him.  What if I started screaming and being totally irrational?  I wonder... .

[Sabine]

PWBPD have a real knack for drawing out the worst in people.

I did that too... .I tried it both ways as well. You know the calm grownup talks about how this wasn't working and couldn't go on like this... .etc. Then, that final button was pushed and BAM! at the end? I blasted him with my own rage and told him never to call me again! (he lingered on for quite a few weeks via emails with begging, crying, bargaining, and pleading - then switched it to me as not being 'honest' with him and leading him on during the r/s) "what a d*ck!" ugh! 

[jhan6120]

PWBPD have a real knack for drawing out the worst in people.

I did that too... .I tried it both ways as well. You know the calm grownup talks about how this wasn't working and couldn't go on like this... .etc. Then, that final button was pushed and BAM! at the end? I blasted him with my own rage and told him never to call me again! (he lingered on for quite a few weeks via emails with begging, crying, bargaining, and pleading - then switched it to me as not being 'honest' with him and leading him on during the r/s) "what a d*ck!" ugh! 

Yeah, been there. She sends me an email where she paints me black in one paragraph, then says she loves me in the next paragraph. Totally insane. I filtered both her email addresses to Marked as Read and Delete.

[Sabine]

Yes, that was over a month ago... .NC since then... .I'm pretty sure he's moved on to the next victim. It's so creepy to me still, the whole 'host' thing! My gosh, never again!  ;p

[zoso80]

This is such a powerful truth!

I am embarrassed, ashamed and regret the anger based behaviors that DxBPDgf pulled out of me. I raged more than once. I understand why I raged. The fighting that would last all night, the lack of sleep, the manipulation, painting of black and things never being resolved was just too much for me. I was stuck in a tormenting loop.

The relationship I got involved with was a lie. Once the real DxBPDgf revealed her hideous self for who she really was. The pressure just started to bare down on me. Once the pressure started, I stayed 7 months. I tried my best because once you commit to someone I take that commitment seriously and you exhaust all options trying to make it work.  Plus, there was a child involved.

In the end, she's ill. That's the fact. All the dark psychological things she projects and her behaviors affect everyone around her. That's why they leave. Her children even come and go.  She's never had a stable home for those kids.

That doesn't change my sorrow and embarrassment for how I acted. I understand why I did it, but should've been able to handle my emotions better.

I own and am responsible for my behaviors of the past.

PWBPD have a real knack for drawing out the worst in people.

[jhan6120]

This is such a powerful truth!

I am embarrassed, ashamed and regret the anger based behaviors that DxBPDgf pulled out of me. I raged more than once. I understand why I raged. The fighting that would last all night, the lack of sleep, the manipulation, painting of black and things never being resolved was just too much for me. I was stuck in a tormenting loop.

The relationship I got involved with was a lie. Once the real DxBPDgf revealed her hideous self for who she really was. The pressure just started to bare down on me. Once the pressure started, I stayed 7 months. I tried my best because once you commit to someone I take that commitment seriously and you exhaust all options trying to make it work.  Plus, there was a child involved.

In the end, she's ill. That's the fact. All the dark psychological things she projects and her behaviors affect everyone around her. That's why they leave. Her children even come and go.  She's never had a stable home for those kids.

That doesn't change my sorrow and embarrassment for how I acted. I understand why I did it, but should've been able to my emotions better.

I own and am responsible for my behaviors of the past.

PWBPD have a real knack for drawing out the worst in people.

I really do feel crappy about ALLOWING someone to draw out the worst in me, despite my bluster elsewhere on this board.