How far do you go to disprove the lies?

[sanemom]

Especially when it is just he said/she said?

BPD mom is withholding DSD15 ffrom her weekend visitation based on an outright lie where she is making DSD a victim and me a perpetrator.  

DSD, DD, and I were all talking about applying for college while my DH was in the room.  He was intently listening because he was wondering if it would get twisted.  

DSD took the PSAT... .  she is only a sophomore so it was early.  I gave her the formula for turning PSAT scores into SAT scores.  Then I was helping DSD look at some college websites, and she started worrying that her scores weren't high enough (they were average scores--not bad at all).  I told her not to worry about it because no matter what her scores will go up next year just by virtue of having more math and language arts classes under her belt.

Well, that turned into DSD being "inconsolable" because I told her that her scores were not high enough to get into X university.  I said no such thing.  Funny thing is that DSD was bouncy and happy when she left here.

BPD mom accused DH of putting me before his children and saying DSD didn't lie--I was lying.  Then he let her know that I am not a liar; DD is not a liar; and DH is not a liar.  He let her know that we all heard the conversation.  I guess she didn't realize there were other witnesses because she just said she is keeping DSD this weekend; she told her attorney what happened and the GAL what happened.

I hate all this he said/she said.  I am starting to wonder if I should get my DD to see a counselor to talk about all of these lies she has seen.  I mentioned to my DD that DSD said that I had told her she could not get into X university with her scores, and my DD's immediate response was, "Why would she say that when you told her the opposite--that she COULD get into X university?"  That was her uncoached interpretation of the conversation that she was also a part of.  

I have the conversation documented (I document a lot of these conversations these days), but I am not sure how valid that will be when it is just our word against hers.

[Rose1]

Well my experience is that if you do disprove the lies you just get more - ie "Oh yes but your grandmother has to lie because she is so scared of your mother" I kid you not - justification from exBPDh to D27 when she was about 20.

On the other hand, we can hope that this stuff eventually sinks in with your SD and she sees the light and gets sick of it. Eventually she is likely to understand that she feels happier at your place and may finally make the break herself - 3 years before she is 18, you never know. From next year she can probably start to vote with her feet.

It doesn't hurt to document at all though because you never know what rubbish will come up in court and it is nice to have 3 witnesses to the lunacy

[Matt]

Call the police and have them meet you at Mom's home.  Show them the court order.  Go to the door with the police and ask to talk to SD15.  If she isn't brought to the door, ask the police to arrest Mom for violating the court order.

If SD15 comes to the door, tell her to get her stuff and come with you.  Make it clear to her that the police are there to ensure that the court order is followed, and that if it isn't followed Mom can be arrested.

Make it clear to all involved - Mom, SD15, and the other kids - that if this happens again, you will do the same thing - call the police and have the court order enforced.

Also, have your lawyer contact Mom's lawyer and document exactly what happened.  Then file a motion for contempt Monday morning.  You may want to also ask for an immediate change of custody, so Mom will not have unsupervised time with SD15, since she has shown she can't handle it.

The question you asked was, "How far do you go to disprove the lies?", but you don't need to disprove anything.  You only need to enforce the court order.

[ForeverDad]

I do see Matt's point.  There is a benefit to prompt action.  DH has a court order he should carry with him at all times so that if an incident arises, he can show it to the officials.  If you wait until you end up in court, weeks or months later, the court will likely not try to figure out which story is more accurate and look at it as a moot point since the missed weekend was, by then, quite some time in the past.

However, I don't know if police would arrest the mother.  Also, with SD at her mother's home, she might be under mother's umbrella of influence/control and decline to leave.  An officer might not push the issue.  When my ex failed to pick up our son from daycare and then showed up at my home a couple hours, police tried to talk me into doing the exchange then but if I refused then they just said, "Work it out in court."  It's not a total loss getting police involved, it is a way to document the failed visitation, though there's the risk they could include that SD, now a teenager, refused the exchange, possibly not good to have in a report.

In less than a year she will be able to drive and if she has transportation she could be more likely to "vote with her feet".

[sanemom]

Yeah, the police would do little to enforce this around here--they would really only serve to document, and we have her texting dh that she isn't bringing DSD.  Apparently, she tried Thursday night to engage dh in conversation about it, but dh did not respond because it would only serve to create more drama.  He engaged in more conversation via text on Friday in hopes of seeing DSD.

Trying to see how on earth DSD could interpret our conversation as me saying her scores weren't high enough to get her into x university, I told dd what DSD was complaining about (she wanted to know why DSD wasn't here).  Dd's immediate response was, "Why would she say that you said that when you said the opposite of that?".  She also confronted DSD via text on her own about the "lying.". No response.

I welcome your analysis.  Looking at the texts, I think BPDmom really wanted to engage him for some reason:


M: The average PSAT score for 10th graders in 2011 was 127. Dsd did incredibly well considering she wasn't required to study for the test and the loss of confidence she's suffered this year. Please boost her up instead of allowing Sanemom to tell her that her scores won't get her into x university.

D: --- did not reply

Friday afternoon.

M: Ive talked to my atty and emailed josh - dsd is staying home with me this weekend. I dont think you realize the impact comments like Sanemom's SAT comment have on DSD. I consoled her for hours last night. It may seem inconsequential to you guys, but your court actions have had a profound impact on her self-esteem and self-confidence. Her grades are suffering. I find myself constantly reassuring her that she's a good kid and loved. Im asking you to work with me to help restore in Dsd what has been damaged.

D: I'm not going to try to have this conversation over text. Please don't make assumptions about a conversation you didn't hear first hand.  I heard it, and it's nothing like how you are portraying it.

M: You can call me.

M: I reached out to you last night and you opted to ignore me. We have to communicate.

D: Your communication with me was a text that took everything out of context and and twisted an innocent conversation (that I heard) into something unrecognizable. Your second text on the topic said you were dragging the lawyers into it. if you want to communicate, you can start by going on the attack.

D: oops you canT start by going... .  

M: D,  if i have it all wrong - talk to me about it. Simply ignoring me isn't productive. You had an opportunity to address the issue last night. You refused. Meanwhile I'm spending the remainder of the evening reassuring and  consoling our daughter. Like i said, the comment may seem inconsequential to you but it had a deep impact on bean. 

D: If Dsd needed to be consoled about that conversation then she had it entirely wrong, or she was telling you what you want to hear. If Dsd got the conversation that wrong, it proves we need to be in counseling. Your last atty blocked that. I hope we get a different answer now.

M: Wow. You just don't get it.

D: Ditto.

M: No. I'll never understand your rationale for this.

D: Rationale for what? 

D: Are you bringing Dsd to the school? 

D: Let's you me and B discuss this when you get here. 1) she was happy when she left the house. 2) the things you are accusing sanemom of are not true. So let's talk. But don't put me in the position of defending my wife against false accusations.

M: I'm always available to talk, but we're not having this conversation in front of the children. No, i will not be bringing Dsd to the school.

M: dsd isn't a liar. Your children should be your priority.

D: sanemom is not a lar.  Dd14 is not a liar. I heard the whole conversation from the family room, and I was listening closely, and I am not a liar.

D: You said you would bring dsd to the school. What's the plan now?

M: I'm keeping Dsd with me this weekend. 

D: Then clearly this conversation is over. 

[Matt]

M: Ive talked to my atty and emailed josh - dsd is staying home with me this weekend. I dont think you realize the impact comments like Sanemom's SAT comment have on DSD. I consoled her for hours last night. It may seem inconsequential to you guys, but your court actions have had a profound impact on her self-esteem and self-confidence. Her grades are suffering. I find myself constantly reassuring her that she's a good kid and loved. Im asking you to work with me to help restore in Dsd what has been damaged.

Dad:  I will arrive at the normal time to pick up DSD.  I have informed my attorney that you are threatening to violate the court order, and he instructed me how to act if you violate it.  I will not accept any violation of the court order - I will take the action my attorney recommends.  Also, I have let DSD know that I will be there at the normal time, so she will be ready to go.  If she does not come to the door, it will be your responsibility and you will be in violation of the court order.

[ForeverDad]

Clearly, M wasn't listening to D's reason or reasoning.  That's the way it always has been, why expect anything different?  Yes, perhaps he needs to make an initial attempt to communicate, he doesn't want to be seen as uncommunicative, but then when it fails, as typically does, then stop trying.  How would 10 denials make any better case than one denial or statement of what really happened?

M is "consoling" D.  Wow, where have I herd that before?  Oh, yeah, I remember, my ex says that whenever she wants to exaggerate some claimed problem or ailment my son encountered.  Of course, it's blown all out of proportion and of course all my fault.

It's that "compelling emotional logic" that the disordered parent is trying to twist into ex's favor.  In my case it never amounted to much as far as the lawyers and GAL and judge were concerned.  Fortunately they have my ex's number by now.

M is talking about how devastated D is.  You all know that is false, though there is a risk that by the time M is finished with D she could have her 'devastated' by pressuring and rewriting history.  She's had years to lay the groundwork for that so that all she has to do now is push the buttons and twist the knobs and levers.

So do the minimum to declare the actual events, that M is blowing it all out of proportion and concocting things that never happened in the way she claimed.  Then let the cards fall where they will, of course doing your best that the truth is reported to the proper people.

Matt is correct, M is trying to create issues for an excuse to violate the order.  She hasn't given up her old claims, tactics and behaviors.  Consoling a 15 year old?  While that claim may work when talking about a small child, "consoling" a teen who is just a couple years away from being an adult doesn't merit canceling an exchange.   And if she can get more time to manipulate D, to support her claims, she'll feel she can succeed.

[sanemom]

I guess after our attorney advises us, we will be better prepared next time.  The cops here don't do much with civil stuff, and I doubt they would force DSD into our custody--she is almost 16.

One thing I DID do is to send an email to DSD's therapist with the summary of what happened, how it got twisted, and my concern how this is impacting her relationship with her dad (and me) because we have been advised not to speak with her without witnesses, to document every conversation, etc. and it is at the point we don't want to say anything to her lest it get twisted.

And in case the therapist is still buying BPD mom's stuff, I put this in, hoping it will give her the red flag:

I find the denial of visitation quite troubling. As you know, a parent who would be promoting the relationship between DH and DSD would NOT be denying visitation, but rather would be saying, "I bet this is a misunderstanding. Why don't you talk with your dad and Sanemom and try to work it out." Instead, mom's not-so-subtle message to DSD is, "I need to protect you from these horrible people who keep hurting you. " DH offered to meet with both mom and DSD to discuss the situation, but mom refused, stating that she didn't want to put DSD in the middle. DSD needs to be able to talk with her father when she is upset by something.

[DreamGirl]

 

Matt is hardcore. I like that about him.

My husband is not however.

He would have never defended me because it's proven to be a completely fruitless endeavor. Instead, he would have simply validated her and her feelings (not validating her blaming me for all that is wrong in her life). He tends to travel the road of least resistance and it helps reduce the drama in our life by quite a bit. He also doesn't like involving authorities because it's never proven to work anyways - and causes boths side to be bitter. She's a lot better at being bitter.  

If it were my husband in the same situation? The first text wouldn't have gone ignored - or if he felt like ignoring it, he would have called/texted her the next day with an explanation that he was unavailable. (i.e went to bed early, left the phone in the truck, etc.)

Then he would have validated her, not defending what was said... .  therefore not engaging at all:

"I'm sorry DSD is so upset, you're right her confidence is really important and we should always encourage her. I'll talk to DreamGirl and DSD this weekend about what was said."

DSD would come for the weekend, we could talk to her and make sure we're all on the same page, and Mama is validated. Everyone is happy - or at least not everyone is unhappy.

I also absolutely would not have subjected my biological children to the situation, or even discussed perceptions with them, or encouraged their reinforcement in proving who is "right".  It's not their burden to bear and they are just kids, who have no business partaking in the adult conversations going on. 


sanemom, I have to be honest. Isn't this becoming a pattern?

Doesn't your SD accuse you and your daughter of mistreating her a lot? I feel like Mama has a target in your/your daughter's general direction and it's become her main issue at hand.

I, personally, would step way back in that situation, at least until court gets settled.  I did it at one point when my husband's ex became overly focused on me... .  and my children. I actually would take my boys on special mom/sons outings to detach from the drama.

It helped me. It helped my boys. It helped our bond. It helped my husband and his ex get some better grounding. It helped my marriage because my husband didn't have to constantly defend me to his ex-wife.

~DreamGirl  

[sanemom]

Matt is hardcore. I like that about him.

My husband is not however.

He would have never defended me because it's proven to be a completely fruitless endeavor. Instead, he would have simply validated her and her feelings (not validating her blaming me for all that is wrong in her life). He tends to travel the road of least resistance and it helps reduce the drama in our life by quite a bit. He also doesn't like involving authorities because it's never proven to work anyways - and causes boths side to be bitter. She's a lot better at being bitter.  

If it were my husband in the same situation? The first text wouldn't have gone ignored - or if he felt like ignoring it, he would have called/texted her the next day with an explanation that he was unavailable. (i.e went to bed early, left the phone in the truck, etc.)

Then he would have validated her, not defending what was said... .  therefore not engaging at all:

"I'm sorry DSD is so upset, you're right her confidence is really important and we should always encourage her. I'll talk to DreamGirl and DSD this weekend about what was said."

DSD would come for the weekend, we could talk to her and make sure we're all on the same page, and Mama is validated. Everyone is happy - or at least not everyone is unhappy.

I also absolutely would not have subjected my biological children to the situation, or even discussed perceptions with them, or encouraged their reinforcement in proving who is "right".  It's not their burden to bear and they are just kids, who have no business partaking in the adult conversations going on.  


sanemom, I have to be honest. Isn't this becoming a pattern?

Doesn't your SD accuse you and your daughter of mistreating her a lot? I feel like Mama has a target in your/your daughter's general direction and it's become her main issue at hand.

I, personally, would step way back in that situation, at least until court gets settled.  I did it at one point when my husband's ex became overly focused on me... .  and my children. I actually would take my boys on special mom/sons outings to detach from the drama.

It helped me. It helped my boys. It helped our bond. It helped my husband and his ex get some better grounding. It helped my marriage because my husband didn't have to constantly defend me to his ex-wife.

~DreamGirl  

I like that, Dreamgirl, and I think that would be a good technique.  I think DH was anticipating the conversation going down the road of ":)SD is not a liar" and didn't want to go there so he ignored it at first (plus, he just sometimes doesn't want to engage in the drama sometimes--it is tiring).  You are right--maybe we shouldn't have involved my DD.  The problem is knowing what to tell them when they ask why DSD is not coming... they are older... .  BPD mom tells the boys her story and makes DH the villain... .  so we try to let them know the basic facts.  In terms of saying it to my DD, a big part of my reason was just trying to figure out how on earth that could have been interpreted that way... .  questioning myself... .  wondering if I said something that I just said wrong.  

Yes, this is a pattern, and I have tried to step back and really not talk with DSD much at all lately because I have been sick of it.  Every weekend she is here, I am gone for at least half of the time, if not more. I have a hard time walking away from her when she tries to engage me in conversation, but maybe I should.  I had no idea a basic conversation about applying for college could get twisted so much.  

I told DH that I am wondering if BPD mom is really wanting to engage him in conversation again... .  she mentioned that twice in her texts.  I am guessing she is realizing she is not in a winning position and is hoping to work it out now... .  after she has been digging her heels in for as long as she has.

[Matt]

Matt is hardcore.

In so many, many ways... .  

[sanemom]

My dh spoke with the lawyer--rather than getting nasty and filing a contempt of court motion, they are going to demand counseling between DH and DSD immediately (they requested it 2 1/2 months ago, but BPD mom's attorney blocked it/refused).  If her current attorney tries to fight it, we will have the motion heard in front of a judge.  Our attorney will also be letting the GAL know that there is another side to the story.

[Rose1]

Slightly different point of view - we all take more from our own generation than either younger or older. Your DD obviously talks to her SS quite bluntly at times and may be one of the better conversations your DSD gets that is "grounded" in reality. Don't have a problem with you letting your kids know exactly what the problem is because it reinforces the fact that BPD is nuts. They all know it. Maybe DSD gets something out of a peer not toeing the mother party line.

BTW - are you sure DSD is saying this stuff or is it BPD - if DSD is saying this stuff then it's so that her life with mother is easier - enabling in fact and should be a major point of discussion with the T - ie lying to get an easier life only works in the short term.

[sanemom]

Slightly different point of view - we all take more from our own generation than either younger or older. Your DD obviously talks to her SS quite bluntly at times and may be one of the better conversations your DSD gets that is "grounded" in reality. Don't have a problem with you letting your kids know exactly what the problem is because it reinforces the fact that BPD is nuts. They all know it. Maybe DSD gets something out of a peer not toeing the mother party line.

BTW - are you sure DSD is saying this stuff or is it BPD - if DSD is saying this stuff then it's so that her life with mother is easier - enabling in fact and should be a major point of discussion with the T - ie lying to get an easier life only works in the short term.

I really don't know if DSD is saying it, BPD mom is saying it, or a combination of both.  Obviously, DSD had to say something about the conversation for BPD mom to even know what it was about, but mom could have totally twisted it--it is so hard to know.  I have wondered if DSD was playing "inconsolable" to get attention from her mom... .  she hates it when her mom has a boyfriend, and playing pathetic may be the only way she knows how to get her mom to turn to her instead of the boyfriend.  Or maybe her mom has been looking for dirt on us... .  to be a fly on the wall.