Subpoena telephone records? What's that all about?

[Forestaken]

My s2bx just had her L subpoena my long distance carrier. She was away for a year but we did keep in contact.  I filed after I heard from her oldest sister that my s2bx hit her younger sister.

What are they looking for?

[Matt]

Maybe nothing.  Could be a fishing expedition.  My wife's lawyer was known for being focused on "discovery" - she kept asking for the same stuff over and over - financial records, etc. - never found anything.  But of course she billed my wife - which means me - for her time asking for the same stuff multiple times.

Make sure you get a copy of everything the other side gets.  Go through it and see if there is anything that looks bad, and be prepared to answer about it.  But don't worry - they can try to make something of it but if you haven't done anything wrong and you tell the truth it should go fine.

[ForeverDad]

Most family courts won't get involved it phone records.  It seems like over-reaching beyond the normal bounds for divorces IMO.  Whether they can still do this if you petition court to limit the scope of their requests, I don't know.  What does your lawyer say?

[whirlpoollife]

My stbx has the same request.  All cell phones, make, model, carrier, phone numbers needed for the interogtieries and documents.  My L said if I was having an affair it would affect my alimony (if I have it). These records get looked at thru February. I filed last May. Ex is trying to dicover anything. Even thought the accusations were there and are there, there is nothing. But it is an invasion of privacy to me and to the family and friends I do call. 

[scraps66]

Unless there is heavy, very expensive litigation, I can't see what good phone records could be and it could be more a case of a L burning billable hours.  My ex had many affairs, I had recorded 25 evenigns - after separation - where she disappeared and left me with two children.  That never even came up in any of the custody proceedings.  Presenting and discussing phone records alone would be fruitless.  There would have to be a ton of other pattern proving supporting information to justify going down this road.

I don't pay alimony, but i can't see how in the world an affair would affect alimony.  As far as I can understand, an affair influences nothing financially.  could affect custody, in my case, IF it comes up.

In certain courthouses like mine, they have a tough time abiding and using the criterai for determing custoyd and the procedures used to evaluate equitable distribution.  so introducing infomration like phone records - they (the courts) just don't do it, one less thing to evaluate.  It's almost as if the courts view their own procedures and laws as cumbersome, so they just pave thier own way.  And there are no consequences for litigants that abuse the Orders. 

I woulnd't worry at all about phone records.   

[livednlearned]

I don't pay alimony, but i can't see how in the world an affair would affect alimony.  As far as I can understand, an affair influences nothing financially.  could affect custody, in my case, IF it comes up.

It depends on where you live. In my state, we have "alienation of affection" laws, in which you can sue the "paramour" for damages. And if you can prove your spouse had an affair, it most certainly affects alimony. In some cases, a spouse may receive no alimony whatsoever.

[livednlearned]

Maybe nothing.  Could be a fishing expedition. 

We often talk about BPD and NPD on these boards, but there are other manifestions of PDs. I'm learning that my ex suffers from bizarre paranoid, which is its own PD.

People with paranoid personality disorder are generally characterized by having a long-standing pattern of pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others. A person with paranoid personality disorder will nearly always believe that other people's motives are suspect or even malevolent. Individuals with this disorder assume that other people will exploit, harm, or deceive them, even if no evidence exists to support this expectation. While it is fairly normal for everyone to have some degree of paranoia about certain situations in their lives (such as worry about an impending set of layoffs at work), people with paranoid personality disorder take this to an extreme -- it pervades virtually every professional and personal relationship they have.

It could be that your stbx is trying to rattle your cage, which has been my ex's strategy from the beginning (all of it has been blowing hot air). It could also be that your ex feels that there is something going on, which is just as good as it being fact for a pwBPD.

I was worried about my ex subpoenaing my phone carrier too, partly to intimidate me, but also as a fishing expedition, like Matt mentioned. Discoveries from pwBPD seem like shots in the dark, imo. I don't know that you have much to worry about. My ex wanted to see bank statements, my lease, and every medical record and bill for my son over the course of a year. It was kind of random and weird. His first accusation was that I was "financially deceptive" but apparently paying bills on time doesn't lend itself to that narrative.

[Matt]

Following up on LnL's thoughts... .  

One type of twisted thinking that is common in people with BPD - and maybe some other people too - is "emotional reasoning".

Most of us observe something, and then experience feelings about what we observed.  If I see a boy playing with a dog, I could feel curiosity about whether it's his dog, or concern that the dog might hurt the boy, or pleasure at the fun they're both having - all rational feelings, appropriate to what I have seen.

Someone with BPD - my ex used to do this so I'm speaking from experience - can have very strong feelings that have nothing to do with what's going on here-and-now.  She had a difficult childhood, and strong feelings of abandonment - her mother died when she was a baby, and her father sent her away to live with relatives she didn't know (and of a different race).  Without therapy, she never got past those early-life experiences, and they bubbled to the surface sometimes, as very strong feelings - anger, suspicion, fear, etc.

Then those feelings lead to beliefs which may not be based on reality.  I learned about this the hard way - my wife would accuse me of being unfaithful to her - "I know there's something going on between you and such-and-such!".  Looking back, I believe she was telling the truth:  She did know that.  She knew it because she felt suspicious, or maybe afraid that I would leave her, so there must be a cause for that - right?  And the cause must be that I was cheating on her - right?  Except that I wasn't.  Her "knowledge" was the result of "emotional reasoning".  The root cause was her childhood trauma.  And nothing I could say or do would convince her that she was wrong, because I couldn't take away that trauma or the damage it left.

So... .  it could be that your stbX "knows" that you are up to something, or that you're hiding money, or... .  who knows what.  You might have to go through the process til both lawyers see that there's nothing there.  But don't assume that your stbX will ever be convinced;  if she is acting based on emotional reasoning, then only therapy will get her past her perceptions.

[Forestaken]

They'll see phone calls to her, my dad, to her, my dad, yada, yada, yada.

False accusations of infidelity.

As for preception versus reality. She told my kids she never hit me.  They're adults. They told her she's lying then she accused them of lying.

My L was in court today, sent scanned copies.

[Somewhere]

Lawyer is likely generating billable hours.

Are you paying for both sides?

[Forestaken]

No. I'm not. This is her second. Her first one was horrible for her and non-responsive to my L.

But I liked his incompetence.