Extinction Burst of sorts?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

After processing the r/s, and moving on to my self examination. Looking into my FOO, it was very apparent that, along with CPD traits, I had some strong NPD traits, concealing themselves, from myself, in the form of vulnerable narcissism. Very clever of my ego . It then had me remember the many articles that confess, how the dynamics of the NPD and BPD individuals fit, like a hand in a glove.(at the time, this was not me) My r/s lasted 12 1/2 yrs, and all indications, (even though I did secretly want out, and was planning/thinking) suggest its very likely, I would still be in the r/s today, had she not made the first move. I believe we all are a mix of some/most/all ego characteristics. With some becoming more prevalent and a reflection on how we coped/developed in our lives. With this being said, and how those that reach this board are so similar, at least those that have been left  , was this/ could it have been, a narcissistic extinction burst? I guess if this is what I see, its my truth. Curious about other views on this... .  PEACE

[FindingMe2011]

After processing the r/s, and moving on to my self examination. Looking into my FOO, it was very apparent that, along with CPD traits, I had some strong NPD traits, concealing themselves, from myself, in the form of vulnerable narcissism. Very clever of my ego . It then had me remember the many articles that confess, how the dynamics of the NPD and BPD individuals fit, like a hand in a glove.(at the time, this was not me) My r/s lasted 12 1/2 yrs, and all indications, (even though I did secretly want out, and was planning/thinking) suggest its very likely, I would still be in the r/s today, had she not made the first move. I believe we all are a mix of some/most/all ego characteristics. With some becoming more prevalent and a reflection on how we coped/developed in our lives. With this being said, and how those that reach this board are so similar, at least those that have been left  , was this/ could it have been, a narcissistic extinction burst? I guess if this is what I see, its my truth. Curious about other views on this... .  PEACE

[P.F.Change]

I feel confused by your post and don't understand your question. Could you clarify? Are you saying you think you have NPD? What is CPD? Which behavior do you think may be an "extinction burst?"

PF

[FindingMe2011]

When exploring NPD, and learning the ways to navigate a healthier lifestyle through this, it was said that a narcissistic extinction burst (rock bottom) was necessary, or at least the most direct way.

Are you saying you think you have NPD?

NPD symptoms Mayo clinic

Believing that you're better than others

Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness

Exaggerating your achievements or talents

Expecting constant praise and admiration(not constant)

Believing that you're special and acting accordingly

Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings

Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans

Taking advantage of others

Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior

Being jealous of others(more so envious)

Believing that others are jealous of you

Trouble keeping healthy relationships (with the opposite sex, yet most were not healthy themselves)

Setting unrealistic goals

Being easily hurt and rejected

Having a fragile self-esteem

Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional

 

The bold ones carried into adult hood, the others i could see lasted well into my teens, early 20s. I can see how my maturation process was stunted. Learning how people seek out others, whom are close to their same EQ, hit me like a sledge hammer.

Definition

By Mayo Clinic staff

A personality disorder is a type of mental illness in which you have trouble perceiving and relating to situations and to people — including yourself. There are many specific types of personality disorders.

In general, having a personality disorder means you have a rigid and unhealthy pattern of thinking and behaving no matter what the situation. This leads to significant problems and limitations in relationships, social encounters, work and school.

In some cases, you may not realize that you have a personality disorder because your way of thinking and behaving seems natural to you, and you may blame others for the challenges you face.

Inverted narcissistsSam Vaknin—"a self-help author who openly discusses his experiences as a person with narcissistic personality disorder"[16]—has identified a special sub-class of such codependents as "inverted narcissists."

Inverted or "covert" narcissists are people who are "intensely attuned to others' needs, but only in so far as it relates to [their] own need to perform the requisite sacrifice"—an "inverted narcissist, who ensures that with compulsive care-giving, supplies of gratitude, love and attention will always be readily available ... .  [pseudo-]saintly."[17] Vaknin considered that "the inverted narcissist is a person who grew up enthralled by the narcissistic parent ... .  the child becomes a masterful provider of Narcissistic Supply, a perfect match to the parent's personality."

In everyday life, the inverted narcissist "demands anonymity ... .  uncomfortable with any attention being paid to him ... .  [with] praise that cannot be deflected." Recovery means the ability to recognize the self-destructive elements in one's character structure, and to "develop strategies to minimize the harm to yourself."



       This was me

What is CPD?

Typo error, DPD

Which behavior do you think may be an "extinction burst?"

I was relating this more to the possibility, of the results from a narcissistic injury. I have heard this term used with other PDs', and it seems that there is a fine line, and some overlaps, with PDs. Its interesting to me, how people recover from there trauma, and the behavior that results. Some differences, and a lot of likeness, just as those here. Maybe a factor is how severe each individual perceives it?... .  The age old discussion, hereditary or learned?, as with many subjects... .  Am I taking PI to a new level? ... .  PEACE

[BentNotBroken]

I wouldn't put too much stock in anything Vaknin has to say. He is a diagnosed sociopath. google it, don't take my word for it.

[FindingMe2011]

Ive also heard the term "vulnerable narcissism" which is close to this same definition. Not taking any of this as gospel, but just keeping an open mind, and interested in others feedback. With all the unknowns, as far as mental health is concerned, it seems most if not all, are somewhat learning on the fly. But this is why they call a doctors position/business a  " practice" . Thanks Bent, hope all is progressing... .  PEACE

[seeking balance]

Well, DSM-V went back/forth on whether to include NPD as a disorder - so actually, this could be an interesting discussion!

I, too, read about vulnerable narcissist and had a big lump in my throat - it hit home.  Inverted narcissism - if I am honest, I can see the traits there too.  There is a fine line between self care, codependency and narcissism - the waters tend to get muddy when reading all this stuff together.

Tell me what you mean by the extinction burst of narcissism - I don't think I am following this part.

[FindingMe2011]

Well, DSM-V went back/forth on whether to include NPD as a disorder - so actually, this could be an interesting discussion!

yes it is very tedious. The way I see it for now. On one end, you have an extremely egotistical narcissist, on the other, you have one taking care, of there own well being. This really comes to mind, as I help my children, navigate through their emotions. One shows NPD traits, the other DPD traits. So as the opportunities present themselves,(their behavior) the discussions are similar, and yet different. DPD child is much more open, which seems par for the course. She has even, as of late, started these type discussions . NPD child is also coming along, and its going to be interesting, to see, where she decides to land. She does ask questions on the line of ":)ad, do you think it is harder being, a man or a woman growing up?" or made statements, that she relates to me, better than her mother. Which isnt much of a gauge, but it was something I could never say growing up. So I see them progressing. So there are many times, it makes me wonder where the line should be. But in the end, it will be their decision, just as it is mine. All I can do is guide them, to see themselves. It helps that they are in middle school, its a gold mind for dysfunctional behavior, as not many this age, know how to hide it, yet. There is no need to mention their mother, they will make the parallels, if they havent already. They do bring up the topic of mom, from time to time. Sometimes I explain that I agree with her, but more times than not, I call it poor behavior.   

I, too, read about vulnerable narcissist and had a big lump in my throat - it hit home.  Inverted narcissism - if I am honest, I can see the traits there too.  There is a fine line between self care, codependency and narcissism - the waters tend to get muddy when reading all this stuff together.

Im right there with you

Tell me what you mean by the extinction burst of narcissism - I don't think I am following this part.

Dont quote me, but i want to say the first time I read this, was reading posts, from 2010. The way i perceived this was... .  When the facade (could this be seen as a partial false self) that I created, came crashing down. Could the experience I felt, be the results of this facade going away? Making a reference, to extinction of this facade. I constantly hear/use/used the terms here... .  crashing, destroyed, shattered, ka-boom, ect.,ect.,... .  I think I finally put it, into words that make sense.

   

[P.F.Change]

Thanks for the clarification.

Here is the definition of "extinction burst" that I am familiar with: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Are you saying the end of your r/s opened your eyes to your own issues? I think that does happen. On the other hand, IMO someone with NPD is far less likely to come to the conclusion that something is "wrong" with him on his own than, say, someone who is just codependent. Have you sought a professional opinion or diagnosis? Which traits would you most like to change?

PF

[FindingMe2011]

Thanks for the clarification.

Here is the definition of "extinction burst" that I am familiar with: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Are you saying the end of your r/s opened your eyes to your own issues? I think that does happen. On the other hand, IMO someone with NPD is far less likely to come to the conclusion that something is "wrong" with him on his own than, say, someone who is just codependent. Have you sought a professional opinion or diagnosis? Which traits would you most like to change?

PF

Thanks PF,

No, I dont believe Im NPD, but I believe my mother had/has strong NPD traits, that eventually dribbled down to me. The supply i was feeding my mother, in turn, developed the DPD. The perfect storm for a LT BPD r/s. A pretty much unavailable person(after the honeymoon, and my fragile ego started taking hits) I believe also, many more people on this site, also have these traits, it seems to show in their words. As I mentioned before, it seems to come, in the form of vulnerable narcissism. Giving with the expectations of a payoff... .  

When our partner doesn’t get the expected response (reinforcement by us) it may scare or anger them and they may try harder to  engage us using threats, violence, destruction, intimidation, name calling, belittling, promises of withholding necessary things, retaliation, or any other painful thing they can think of to get us to engage.   This escalation is know as an extinction burst.

Extinction Burst - The term extinction burst describes the phenomena of behavior temporarily getting worse, not better, when the reinforcement stops.

Spontaneous Recovery - Behavior affected by extinction is apt to recur in the future when the trigger is presented again. This is known as spontaneous recovery or the transient increase in behavior. Be aware of this eventuality. It is a part of the extinction process. Don't be discouraged.



   This explains exs' behavior, after we separated, even though it was at her request.It was not her perception, as this is what the emails said. Her remembering of the events were distorted. I felt/knew (from what I was learning) that it was just another ploy, for her to see how far I would go, to prove I loved her, as I had done in the past. This continued for a few more weeks,up until the time she filed for divorce. The appx time she secured her new partner. Her honeymoon was on. Interesting how there is an order to the disorder... .  Anyway, its just a theory. If I was one to have stronger than average NPD traits (where ever this line could be drawn), and was the one, that was replaced. The behavior highlighted above is pretty much, spot on for me,(mixed in with denial, and depression) up until the day I was served.( NPD extinction burst?) I later regretted my behavior, and it only fueled, the fire of shame in me. I didnt/dont participate/act on the spontaneous recovery, as she has, (with an almost clockwork interval) but I sure had many thoughts of it, early on... .  Interesting and yes, as SB stated, there is fine line between it all. Just maybe, a little more to consider in the recovery process, and not mentioned very much here.

[HowPredictable]

When the facade (could this be seen as a partial false self) that I created, came crashing down. Could the experience I felt, be the results of this facade going away? Making a reference, to extinction of this facade.

FindingMe2011,

I can relate perfectly to your own experiences, I self-identify as someone with strong N traits and come from a family of two NPD parents.  (And I agree, that there are likely quite a few Vulnerable Narcissists on this Board, though many CoDependents, too).  I too had a "hit bottom" phase, after I realized my most recent Ex's BPD, the true nature of my parents' characteristics,  and my own apparently irresistable attraction to BPDs and NPDs all throughout my life.

However, I think you are mixing up the concept of "Extinction Burst" with the what I guess we can call the "Lifting of the Mask" of the False Self.   When you broke up wtih your Ex, you probably experienced a good deal of Narcissistic Injury (or Narcissistic Rage).  Many people with N traits are very strongly defended against even understanding that they have a "Mask" at all, as that facade serves as a very strong ego defence.  You are apparently among those who are striving to at least be aware of your own defense mechanisms.  (Good for you!)

So what you felt was not an Extinction Burst in the traditional sense, but rather a rare glimpse of the true state of your own Ego Defence System, and the fact that you have been operating from behind a facade.  My understanding is that the N-facade does not just "extinguish itself"; it's there for a reason and through therapy and self-awareness you can at least govern yourself to be mindful and try to work around it.

Still, it's a very important, life-changing revelation, though it's not a very comfortable discovery to make.  In my case, it was an excruciating revelation... .  though I'm all the better for it.  

More power to you.    

[Manon46]

I was extremely shocked when I found out that all I did wasn't so heroic after all. Pure narcissism, co-dependent, and a lot of ASPD/BPD flees.

I was convinced that everything I did was for him. I found out all I did was for me. That was hitting rock bottom :'(

[FindingMe2011]

I was extremely shocked when I found out that all I did wasn't so heroic after all. Pure narcissism, co-dependent, and a lot of ASPD/BPD flees.

I was convinced that everything I did was for him. I found out all I did was for me. That was hitting rock bottom :'(

Yes, although on many levels I dealt with the NPD traits, along with everything else, somewhat simultaneously. When learning of NPD, I could relate to much, but it wasnt a sense of hitting the nail on the head, compared to what i felt, when trying to figure the ex, and stumbled on BPD. Then some time passed, and I came across vulnerable narcissism, which seems to me, a combination of DPD, and NPD. I felt it... .  Just as interactions with ex, flashes BPD traits, the same could be said with my mother, with NPD traits. I speak with her often, and have seen our r/s evolve, for the better. Father always avoids emotional conversations, and does/did  his part, by quoting old wise sayings, which back in the day were just ridiculous riddles to me, as they never had the ability to elaborate on them, or put any importance to them. But it does seem to fit, a person with NPD traits, to stroke their own ego,under the disguise of being my biggest supporter, to later be able to say" I told you so." ... .  Reminds me of a conversation I had, early on with my mom. She held the stance, in many ways, I needed to just get over it, and move on, and in conversation, I told her i had strong DPD traits, her reply, " That's funny, I always raised you to be independent, to not have to rely on anyone", her example of this, was teaching me to cook for myself, around the age of 9 ... .  more insight 

[AmericanTemplar]

This thread has been a real eye opener for me.  I have read quite a few of 2010's posts where she talks of altruistic narcism and the link between codependency and narcism and I don't think that I had entirely understood it.  But when I read the list of symptoms of a narcissist posted above, I was amazed to see that all but a couple felt very close to home.  I'm going to do some further research into all of this.  Does anyone have any books or other resources that they recommend?

Also, FM2011--awesome tag line!  Very succinct description of the BPD relationship!

[HowPredictable]

Does anyone have any books or other resources that they recommend?

There are lots, and it will depend on what particular configuration in your FOO it was, that might have helped your own narcissism develop.   But to start with I'd recommend the book by Alice Miller titled "The Drama of the Gifted Child".   Misleading title, but describes the family dynamic very well.   Also, try "Children of the Self-Absorbed", by Nina Brown.

[seeking balance]

Does anyone have any books or other resources that they recommend?

There are lots, and it will depend on what particular configuration in your FOO it was, that might have helped your own narcissism develop.   But to start with I'd recommend the book by Alice Miller titled "The Drama of the Gifted Child".   Misleading title, but describes the family dynamic very well.   Also, try "Children of the Self-Absorbed", by Nina Brown.

Alice Miller is not light reading, but very worth the read - eye opening really.

[AmericanTemplar]

I started reading a book last night that I downloaded to my Kindle called "Narcissism" by Alexander Lowen.  So far it seems to be a little harsh in its descriptions and I don't identify with the emotionless characters that it has described in what little I have read.  When I look over the list of narcissistic traits listed by the Mayo clinic, I think that over the course of my life I have felt varying degrees of most of these traits, but I don't think that I have ever been one to take advantage of people.  Anyway, sorry to hijack and derail... .  

[BentNotBroken]

Amateur diagnosis is hazardous! There are caveats with things like the DSM-IV criteria. One thing to keep in mind is that these are difficult diagnoses to make even for professionals. On top of that, the traits that are described are not unique to PDs. Even if you have exhibited some or all of the behaviors at various points in time, please keep in mind that these patterns must also be persistent and pervasive, usually starting in adolescence. One instance of black and white thinking doesn't mean you are BPD. One instance of Narcissistic behavior doesn't mean you are NPD.

I am not a professional. These are my observations from my own reading and introspection.

[MaybeSo]

I don't think anyone is trying to formally diagnose themselves as NPD; I think the discussion is about looking at what traits we might carry that are undeveloped parts of our personality. The individual line item criteria that make up both BPD and NPD, taken separately, describe common personality traits and common human behavior. There's nothing terribly unique or mind blowing about any of the symptoms; they have to be 5 or more, pervasive, and cause life problems to be considered a dx of a severe mental illness. However, the DSM can point to areas of weakness we see in ourselves.

I am not personality disordered; I know I don't meet the criteria. But I do carry some uncomfortable traits and relating to my ex who I pegged as BPD (w/NPD traits) traits and my focus on him, led over time, yikes!,  to a realization of some of my own traits.  A quick snapshot as I am short on time:

From NPD; a belief in perfect love. Hello! I see this theme in my earlier posts all the time, my

god did I have a Childs starry eyed view of romance and men and love.

From BPD; abandonment fears; my dad left us for another woman when I was 5. So who was I

really agonizing about when I saw my ex was flirting with another woman? What he was doing

was insensitive and uncomfortable but from my reactions it was like I was being killed or

something: the past was mixing with the present, my ex was triggering abandonment fears that

were already there.

And as for dependent personality disorder and Vulnerable narcissism. Yes, that's the biggy for me.

I provided my self absorbed father with narcisstic supply my whole childhood, adolescence and

into adulthood. My childhood wounds paired perfectly with my ex with BPD (w/NPD traits) traits.

The Drama of the Gifted Child mentioned above is the seminal work about the child GIFTED in knowing how to serve the narcisstic parent, and the struggles and challenges that child faces.

I see all these themes in myself and am learning so much in becoming aware of this. And I see these same themes played out over and over in the posts I read.  This has nothing to do with labeling myself or giving myself a scary dx; I am learning about myself and understanding more about the places that scare me (title of another good book, the places that scare you) and why ... .  to me it's freeing.