advanced communications consult needed

[patientandclear]

Hi all.  So recently we were discussing how my pwBPD seemed vexed and snippy with me in an email followed by silence, and how I should handle it (the whether to ignore rudeness" thread).

I ended up sending a brief, pleasant note asking if there was anything wrong, because his email was unlike him.

Today he responded that no, he didn't think he'd been brief and snippy, and in any event, he would never disappear on me even if there was anything wrong.  (All untrue--he DID disappear, and as he went on to explain, there WAS something wrong.)

Then he plunged into a quite angry discussion about a talk we had earlier this week.  He'd given me a book that means a lot to him, and was anxious to discuss it with me.  We met, we discussed.  At the time, the talk seemed wonderful.  Later that night, he texted how much he appreciated it.

But today, he said he was offended at how I had characterized  his position in that discussion, and also, how disappointed he was that I had just gone through the book pulling out support for my pre-existing views.  I can't stress enough that this is the opposite of what I actually did.  I spent hours preparing for this talk, finding passages that connect to what he believes, and noticing that the author actually integrated what we usually think of as his position and my position into a complex, coherent whole.

Then he said that sometimes it feels that our conversations are a long attempt by me to "save" him.

I am hoping folks here can give a few pointers about what I am trying to accomplish in a reply to this.

For one, I don't want to have the whole conversation via email.  I want to answer some of it, but ask to meet in person.

Is it worth noting that he was actually doing the very distancing he said he wouldn't do to me?  I don't really like letting his claim that he would never just disappear go by when he in fact just ... .  disappeared.  The disappearing is not a boundary for me in this friendship, but obviously I don't like it, and since he says it's not something he would do, it might be worth pointing that out.  But it will come across as critical.

The "saving" thing is hard because, while there is an element of truth to that months ago when he would talk about the possibility/futility of love, and I would say "I don't think it is inevitably futile," and explain my model for a healthy love relationship ... .  I haven't done anything like that for months, and to the point here, I definitely was not doing that in our conversation this week about the book.

Should I acknowledge the ways in which I have arguably attempted to save him, while stressing that I have no interest in doing that any more?

And then, perhaps hardest for me -- I find myself writing an answer that is full of JADE -- do I really not explain that I didn't do what he said when we had our lovely (to me) conversation earlier this week?  I didn't at all dismiss his views.  I didn't just look for support for my own position when I read his book.  Quite the opposite -- I made a big effort to understand the significance of the book to him and to show him where I found support for things he thinks.  :)o I really not explain my good intentions or how I think it shows respect for his views to explore where they come from and to ask questions about them?  And how he misunderstood what I said about his opinion?  He said he respects me and he thinks I have a reciprocal respect, but here, I mischaracterized what he believes and he "let me get away with it" but regrets that now.

It's odd, the rest of the note is cheery, substantive and pleasant.  Like, now that I've gotten it off my chest that I'm furious at you and how you dismiss who I am and want to conquer me with your ideas ... .  how's it going?  Here's what I'm thinking about any number of other things!

It's interesting, this is one of a handful of times when I have really seen how angry he is.  He does not rage verbally or physically.  But sometimes when he withdraws I've wondered if he was raging quietly, and that sure is what this feels like.

I appreciate any guidance on what I should try to achieve here and what I shouldn't.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Hey P&C,

First? I wouldn't be too wordy, but (if you even want to do this), I'd say something like "gee, now I can see how you may interpret that, would you like to talk further?"  Then let it go... .  

The most important thing I've learned? (it's just me here), is that we have to let so much go in a r/s with a BPD person!  Pick the issues most important to us to engage in! The things that do not cross the line, that do not challenge our integrity, just let them go, depersonalize.  Like waving a figurative hand.

I'm sure there are others here with different views who may be able to shed a better light, but this is my gut reaction!

CiF

[elemental]

I would also respond very briefly and kindly to him like Cardinals advised.


What else are you doing these days to keep your head clear and take care of yourself? I may be wrong but I am getting the impression your thoughts are very deep into this and it's really unsettling you lately.

[patientandclear]

I am realizing that I have been trying to "perform" and show how well I understand him and thereby somehow earn his love and trust and eventually find our way back to being the partners we briefly were.

And when I read this, I saw that all my best efforts are counter-productive.  He doesn't even like that I do all that.  I'm not sure, at this moment, what he even likes about me -- my core qualities are bugging him enormously.

If I stop doing all of that, I'm not even sure what exists between us.

So yes, I am pretty sad and confused right now.  In particular, this conversation we had about the book ... .  it didn't happen the way he said.  :)o I not make any attempt to show him that?  In other words, should we NEVER explain our good intentions and actual good performance in the face of this kind of reaction?  Validation only?  No convincing of our good will and good actions?

[laelle]

I agree completely with Cardinal.  I wanted to add that by your post you are trying way to hard too please him.  You know that no matter how hard you try to please him it will never be in enough.  Stop trying, its waste of time and emotions.

In addition, they dont respect you for it because your kissing their butt.  (they associate caring with naivity or butt kisssing.)

I will reiterate my advice from my first post, let it go.  They dont respond to deep, caring, emotional communication.  Being a woman, I like you am prone to show my care and love in talking to people that I love.  Men and woman do not speak the same language alot of the time, and in addition throwing that BPD in there, really is only going to end up with you getting your feelings hurt, him angry, and nothing to show for your kind efforts.

For your own peace of mine, let it go hun.  

I have a boundary... .  I will not chase after a man.  When I get ignored (and it drives me crazy to do so)  I wont chase after him.

Its a boundary that I have to keep my emotions in check when I feel weak.

[Cardinals in Flight]

If makes you feel any better? the over-performing thing is really hitting me between the eyes, it's SO WHAT I DID!

And like Iaelle says, we women want to communicate all the warm and fuzzy feelings we have, try being in a relationship with a woman who doesn't do that, OMG... .    and she's BPD!

It's a process to get there though P&C, you are so compassionate and loving, I was too, and hurts like hell! it's gut wrenching, and if I let it, it can come back and consume me, but that isn't good for me, I have to take those reins, and throw them away.

Feel your feelings, write them out, cry them out, for ever how long you need to!  What you do is all and entirely up to you!  

((P&C))

[elemental]

I don't chase a man either, though I have this abandonment thing that has been horribly challenged by my BPD. I think Phoebe has really reinforced this, too, in terms of taking time outs for going and getting your mind and feelings into the things that make YOU happy.

Patient, you have been working really hard for this, amazingly so. He sounded very condescendiing to me in what he said to you, like he knows he can just be mean, kind of in the way a Dom is mean to a sub, though I honestly am not into that culture... he just came across as Master.

Personally I would just be polite and then put some distance in there so he understands that this is meant to be a friendship of equals and really isn't all about his A Rebours angst.

Sorry if I come across not very polite, I am a little offended by him on your behalf.

[Cardinals in Flight]

Yeah, what she ^ said, we are on your side! 

[laelle]

What she said and what she said.    

As far as the dom/sub... .  the dom has no one to master if the sub doesnt participate.

Controlling the controller was my need.  This was the direction of my relationship for many years.

He has a need to be dominant, and I guess I have a need to be submissive.  It makes sense for the initial attraction. The main change that I have made the past few months is getting control of my subconscious need to be controlled. I was no victim even tho I made it out to be that way, he was simply playing a part in my core script.  I gave him a part he was the perfect actor for.  We both wanted out of that play and are moving on to be more equal partners.

He is still bossy, but he deals with his own OCD's alot to help me to not feel controlled.  I also just ignore him alot.  

[patientandclear]

Thanks so much CIF, Laelle, Elemental.  You are the best.

You know what is really hurting?  When we were first together, I was The Answer.  I was, exactly, precisely, supposed to save him.  He may even have used those words.  It's exactly what he wanted from me.  He told me I had special abilities to do just that.  And even though much has changed since then, and I would have told you I didn't want to save him even then ... .  I must subconsciously still be responding to this sense that that is what our relationship is based on.

I don't suppose it would be worth telling him that?  Perhaps that's one of those realizations to share with my comrades here and with my therapist?

OK, thank goodness I checked in with you guys.  I am going to respond very differently than my first instinct.  Some combination of what the three of you are saying.  Then, do other things.  Now that I don't have to worry about saying just the right thing to him -- since the more I do that the more irritated he is -- I should have a lot of time remaining for my other activities

[laelle]

P&C, dont feel bad about loving the idealization.  At first my bf use to say I am his Juliette.  Now most of what comes out of his mouth is how deadly my farts are.    Killing small animals and such.      He still hangs around tho, so I must not be too bad.

[heartandwhole]

I am realizing that I have been trying to "perform" and show how well I understand him and thereby somehow earn his love and trust and eventually find our way back to being the partners we briefly were.

And when I read this, I saw that all my best efforts are counter-productive.  He doesn't even like that I do all that.  I'm not sure, at this moment, what he even likes about me -- my core qualities are bugging him enormously.

If I stop doing all of that, I'm not even sure what exists between us.

So yes, I am pretty sad and confused right now.  In particular, this conversation we had about the book ... .  it didn't happen the way he said.  :)o I not make any attempt to show him that?  In other words, should we NEVER explain our good intentions and actual good performance in the face of this kind of reaction?  Validation only?  No convincing of our good will and good actions?

Hi P&C,

I think this statement above is really honest, and I appreciate your willingness to share that.  I have been following your situation and have been feeling that all along (about your situation), but didn't want to chime in, because of the specific feedback that you were requesting. In your recent posts, I felt that you were trying to be the "perfect unconditionally loving friend/partner" which is something I have spent a lot of time trying to be.  And NOT just with pwBPD.  It was an enormous task that wore me out in every way.  And, inevitably, backfired in every way, too.  :'(

As for the book reading discussion, I was in a very similar situation where pwBPD first told me how wonderfully I had responded to something he wrote... .  then in the space of a day or two, suddenly he was very, very angry at me and accused me of doing the exact opposite, which was basically trample on his writing, the furthest thing from my intention.  I definitely JADED (didn't have this website then) in a gentle way, and it didn't help at all.  His experience was what mattered and nothing I could do or say could change that. And just days before he had been praising and thanking me for my contribution. He told me later that he hadn't been aware of his anger AT ALL at first.  He ended up expressing his anger at me (respectfully) and I apologized (heartfelt) and it blew over.  I wanted so much for him to know that I didn't trample on his creativity (he knew that just days before!), that it was a innocent misunderstanding, but it didn't seem to matter to him, his feelings were the important issue, not my actions/intentions.

The point is: it was really really really important to me that he not see me as someone who could do that.  It was really really important to me that I get it right.  I was so invested in being this amazing person who cared and loved him like no one else and who would never do that - therefore staving off abandonment and winning his love and loyalty.  It didn't work.

I think that is where radical acceptance comes in, and letting go, even when the other person is thinking something about you that is not true - so hard !

I'm learning that in my quest to be a compassionate and loving friend/partner, I need to include my own wants and needs in that big umbrella of caring.  Something that requires a big change in my fundamental programming.

All the best to you  

heartandwhole

[patientandclear]

P&C, dont feel bad about loving the idealization.  At first my bf use to say I am his Juliette.  Now most of what comes out of his mouth is how deadly my farts are.    Killing small animals and such.     He still hangs around tho, so I must not be too bed.

OK, you get the prize for first person to make me actually laugh about this!

I am wondering what he DOES see in me though.  Since everything that is actually special & unique to me seems to be pissing him off or alienating him.

When we were dating, he would say "of all the things I love about you--and there are so many--the most striking is that you consistently ask about me.  It melts my heart, P&C, it really does."

I've always been puzzled by that.  That is a quality I share with approximately 50% of the women on earth -- that I would simply ask how he was doing.  Meanwhile there are a lot of other aspects of me that are more unusual ... .  but I'm not sure those are of any particular interest or value to him.  Am I just some random mirror person who he has on retainer to prove he exists?

[laelle]

P&C, they arent bull~ting you, they really feel that way, its just feelings are buried beneath a bunch of pain and cruddy defense mechanisms.  They also tend to have a flair for the dramatic and will say anything for you to think they are awesome.  I have never met a more awesome person than someone who thinks im awesome.  

 They consider the mushy stuff to be weak.  I asked my bf just today what does he see that is actually good in me... .  He said if there is ever a zombie apocalypse I would run slower than him so I would get eaten while he escaptes.   , he loves me.    

What difference does it really make how he sees you? He did not invent a cure for cancer or win the nobel prize, did he?   Its all about how YOU see YOU.  If he does mirror you, be a confident you.

[patientandclear]

Laelle -- OK, you've now extracted two laughs from sad, confused P&C in 10 minutes.  Now who's over-performing?  Seriously, I cannot overstate what a paradigm shift you deliver for me in just a few paragraphs.  SO helpful.

In your recent posts, I felt that you were trying to be the "perfect unconditionally loving friend/partner" which is something I have spent a lot of time trying to be.  And NOT just with pwBPD.  It was an enormous task that wore me out in every way.  And, inevitably, backfired in every way, too.  :'(

As for the book reading discussion, I was in a very similar situation where pwBPD first told me how wonderfully I had responded to something he wrote... .  then in the space of a day or two, suddenly he was very, very angry at me and accused me of doing the exact opposite, which was basically trample on his writing, the furthest thing from my intention.  I definitely JADED (didn't have this website then) in a gentle way, and it didn't help at all.  His experience was what mattered and nothing I could do or say could change that. And just days before he had been praising and thanking me for my contribution. He told me later that he hadn't been aware of his anger AT ALL at first.

Heartandwhole -- this is an enormous help, especially the story about your pwBPD's response to your feedback on his writing.  Sounds like exactly the same situation.

With loud groans and creaks from turning a battleship on a dime, I am going to NOT further explain myself.  And I am going to NOT try to win the brass ring where he says "wow, it's so amazing how well you understand me! and actually I now see that you weren't trying to annihilate me, you were understanding me!  that's different!  well done, P&C!"

I am honestly still not sure what he does like about me, if not this, and I think I will be a little gun-shy about ever offering any insights.  Maybe I will ask first if he wants to hear them.  Radical idea.

Personal growth opportunities -- damn.  They're everywhere.

[123Phoebe]

Hi patient&clear,

He may have felt attacked and on the spot by your email inquiry so he's attaching his upset to you, and is grasping at straws to turn his feelings into facts.  It's just one of those things... .    Now you feel like he did when he read your email... .    Projection.

I might reply something like, 'Hmm, interesting views and duly noted.  I can understand where you were coming from with your email about the (interesting) quote now, because I'm finding this conversation too much for email.  Glad everything else is going well!  Same here   Take it easy... .  '

And go do something nice and fun to take your mind off of it.  If he wants to talk about it later, let him bring it up.  Not everything can be talked through and resolved.  A lot of what we communicate can be done with less communication. 

I don't always follow the SET and DEARMAN rules of engagement.  Sometimes I purposely forget all about the BPD aspect and live my life according to how I see fit

And wondering what he likes about you?  What's not to like?  You're awesome and amazing and sexy as hell!  He likes it    

[laelle]

Your not sure what he likes about you?  You are a wonderful person.  Kind, compassionate and loving person.  It just so happens that what they love the most about people is also what they fear the most.  It scares the heck out of them.  I'm mean to mine just to make him feel more at home.  

[elemental]

And remember, you exist as you even when he is not your mirror!

[maria1]

Patientandclear

I am sorry you are hurting with this right now. I feel for you and I feel with you in some ways because I've moved in and out of the same feelings and still do a little. What I identify with is that desire for my ex to still find me the special one, as much as I fight against that, it's a magnetism I find hard to resist.

I know I have said similar things to you before and I'm sorry to say it again but... .  

You want to know what he likes about you? You're AMAZING and you stay.

All the time I spend focusing on my ex, wondering about my reactions to him, planning what I said to him next, beating myself up about what I did wrong, is all time I was keeping myself from focusing on ME and my stuff. For me I did that because I couldn't face it- it was much, much more enjoyable to think about him. I loved it.

I'm reading 'Codependent no more' by Melody Beattie. Don't know if you've read it?

Even if you're not obviously trying to fix or save, you are trying to help him when I wonder if you could just think more about helping yourself. It's not about going off and doing stuff while he's not around; it's about not letting your mental energy drain away on him.

I'm sorry I feel like I don't say what you want to hear but I say it because I recognise myself in you.

[patientandclear]

Hi Maria, and thanks.  I do want to hear what you have to say about this.

Today I can see how much this over-performing impulse is linked to his abandonment of me (similar to what Elemental said about her situation).  It was so wonderful between us.  Then, suddenly, he was gone.  And ever since, I've had this subconscious instinct that if I were just perfect, he would come back and love me again.  How brilliantly I understood him was of course the thing he praised about me at the beginning, so I've been trying to keep demonstrating that in hopes that he will remember and we can be happy again.

If I'm honest with myself (and you guys), that's what is at stake for me here.  And that's why it's a big blow to hear that I am failing in that department.  My whole plan is in shambles!

And honestly too, I don't quite know what to do if I am not doing that.  It seems like the answer is just: less.  That doesn't seem very satisfactory.

[laelle]

Be true to and take care of yourself P&C.  nothing else is more important than that.

[myself]

I am honestly still not sure what he does like about me, if not this, and I think I will be a little gun-shy about ever offering any insights.  Maybe I will ask first if he wants to hear them.  Radical idea.

Hi... .  Lots to get to with this situation, many great comments so far and good advice. It's about accepting not only who and how he is, but who and how you are. His push/pull is part of him, and part of what upsets you. You're trying to be close with someone who has problems being close with people, especially the more awesome ones like you. Of course he's into you! It probably brings a lot to the surface for him that he has a hard time facing. Especially because it's what he'd choose if he was better capable. You know the things about you that he likes, you're just doubting yourself right now and trying to see things through his eyes. If you could actually see through his eyes, though, there wouldn't be such a dilemma going on. You'd know just what to do. Or: Would you? Because he probably doesn't even know that, you know? Whenever he gets too close to really seeing it, his response is to run away. It's pretty typical of this disorder, and what you've experienced with him. Most likely how it will always be, dreams aside.

You can't just constantly validate him, because then you're perpetuating his patterns in some ways, and not validating yourself, which lets you down for both of you and, yes, 'saves' him. It makes it too much about him, and not enough about you. When you're off balance, it adds to the shakiness between you two. A real balanced friendship would be when you're there for each other, but being your best true selves, as well. Make sure you keep your focus on that. Maybe he's just not able to match your level. It's up to you to keep struggling with that, or not, but will you lose yourself while you are 'saving' him'? You're finding yourself, too, I understand, it's obvious, but doing everything you can to have a relationship with someone you're not really in a relationship with seems like it will wear you out and not get you much closer to your 'prize'. You've said yourself that you're really hoping things work out between you. So your efforts are heading in that direction, and you are trying to help build him up so he'll be better not just for himself but for you. I've been there too. Loving, needing, hurting... .  Helping?

My ex literally told me that I had 'saved her'. I knew what she was talking about (the pains of the past had become the wonderful loving todays), but it made me step back because I didn't think I was playing that role. It felt good to help her, but I wasn't aware I was trying to rescue her. Thought I was just being a good friend, lover, partner. I'm a guy who does talk about my feelings and can share that stuff quite easily, so I thought I was doing the right thing by being myself and open with her. When the person you are being close with has deep-seated issues concerning closeness, it's a never ending uphill battle to find any kind of footing at all that will last. There are many pleasant plateaus involved, some of the most spectacular personal sights I've ever seen, but also many times you fall or get pushed over the edge, taking damage, feeling lost.

The part of your post I quoted above, I wanted to say: Share your insights! When asked, AND offer. You already did this. He asked your opinion of the book, you gave it, he responded well, then badly, even though you put so much effort into giving him a good reply. You didn't push your thoughts on him, from what you're saying. He wanted them. So don't feel shy about offering them again. Be Yourself. If he's going to be involved with you, then he'll be involved with YOU. If you change yourself too much to bend to how it should be for him, you'll lose yourself in the process. At least enough of yourself to doubt yourself, with too many questions overwhelming you. He already likes you, for who you are. It's just difficult for him to be consistent in showing that. When he's feeling weird about himself, have you noticed that's when he projects more, blames you more, distances himself, etc.? Some of that may be due to your actions, but mostly it's how he reacts. Not new info there, just a reminder. This situation makes me think that, as in many like this, one of you is always in a cage of some sorts. Are you in his? Is he in yours? Are you each in your own? Do the cages change from crisis to crisis, perhaps a bit more elbow room when times are calm? Are they ever calm? How many eggshells are still walked on when things are 'good' between you? Is insisting that there is no cage just creating another?

He's lucky to have you in his life, as are we all. Best wishes to you as always.

[almost789]

Hi Patientandclear,

I was just going to say that this is tyically the type of stuff im used to. One day their wanti g you to save them and needing you, the next its the opposite, their smothered and turn on you. And tomorrow it could be something else completely. tbchanges from moment to moment one can never really figure out what it is they want. And they dont even know themselves. This chaos and up and down wore me out. Take care... .  who know what tomorrow holds.

[maria1]

I turned a different corner to you P & C when I decided that I couldn't put the work in. I felt I wasn't s strong as you, not as patient and not as clear, and that I was more selfish.

My decision was that what I got back wasn't worth it and I think that was because I had detached enough somehow to realise that our relationship/ friendship would always be uneven.

I no longer trusted his actions and hadn't for a while. That led me to wanting something different for myself. When he said 'please be my friend; my life is better with you in it; please make my Christmas by saying we can get together once a week as friends', I knew that would only last as long as it suited him.

I knew at last that my time meant more to me, that I didn't actually want to go back to what we had.

I also knew that I would have to work too hard at the tools of validation. I remember pondering a question about validating something to do with his new relationship and I just realised I didn't need to, that it wasn't my job to.

You can't be the special one for him if he won't give you that back in return. Well, you can but it will bring you to your knees in a different way.

There is a way of letting go but it feels unsafe. You just have to let him go, completely. I don't mean turn away from him and go NC, I mean put the friendship in the place of other friendships and focus properly on you. You can say less to him and think less about him. You can stop reacting to everything he does and everything he doesn't do. You can stop waiting for the rewards.

As somebody inclined to codependency I'm learning that I need to check myself if I'm wasting energy thinking about somebody else's life, somebody else's problems. It's not my job to think about them. I've spent most of my life doing it in relationships though so it's not easy to just stop. But it's easier than I might have imagined.

And you can work on your own abandonment stuff as you do it. You might just find he isn't everything you think he is. You might just find that you can do this by thinking about who you are without him and who you are without his absence. But I do think it's good that you are starting to shift the focus. Because I think you matter more than he does, actually.

Now, I feel that my ex is who he is, getting on with it all, and I am who I am, getting on with growing. As I grow there are less holes for him to fill and he becomes less appealing. I can still enjoy his company and I still care but I care less. Recently I've seen him with different eyes at times, and I didn't like some of what I saw. And that's OK- it may last, it may not. It doesn't matter quite so much in terms of me and him but it all matters in terms of me and where I'm going.

We meet, we pass, we get on with our separate lives. There is little magnetism left right now. He's just a human being, and I am too, and there are so many more out there it all matters less and less.

This is the hardest journey but it gets easier.

[nylonsquid]

Hi P&C,

You've gotten some great advice. I guess I felt like chiming in as if I know what I'm doing but I don't... ah well... I wanted to point a few things out.

I noticed that trying with them doesn't really work. The only thing that worked is calming her down by listening, validating her emotions and letting the thing go without giving in my integrity. I still felt frustrated in general because it's such an ordeal.

I say, they crave love but are allergic to it. If you don't push that love on them and just show an opening then they might take a step in closer if there's no threat of enmeshment and if they still perceive you in an idealized way. Or they won't if they don't have the need right now.

I noticed that the harder I tried the more power I gave in and it's all about power for them. Keep things short, light and brief. If he's acting up and saying whatever he's saying then just listen for a bit, say you understand how he feels and turn the subject around. Make a joke. It's a skill that I haven't been able to do. If it's getting worse then call a time out and just exit while saying how you care and that you'll talk again later.

I haven't mastered this but through this they will want you more because all they want is attention and getting a reaction from you and they will do whatever it takes. Don't react and take away the power by leaving. It's what they fear the most but this is how it works I think.

Hope that helped  

[laelle]

I think you should just stop caring... .    NC or contact.  Your idealizing him and he cant stay up on the pedestal your putting him on.  He keeps falling off.  He isnt what you want him to be.  Just live in the moment and enjoy the good stuff you get from the relationship.

[almost789]

I think if you speak to him again also, you should aknowledge, yes, infact he was right to a certain point. He said he felt yuou were tryi g to save him. At first you wanted to aJade, then you realized, he's right. So, letting him know that will help. When mine did that to me he said your crazy, and emotional wreck. I said, yes I was.  So, i admit. That calms him down. Then i Jade and say. Well if you wouldnt do the silent treatment i wouldnt be an emotiinal wreck. Then he goess zzzzttttt. Emotional overload!  

[patientandclear]

Thanks everybody for these incredibly helpful reflections.

In terms of whether I am going to continue contact -- yes, unless he persists in being a thoughtless jerk   That isn't his usual way.  We'll see.  I meant what I said when I came back into his life after 10 months and offered to be a real friend.  I wouldn't lightly walk away from him.  My plan is, more, to adjust my expectations of the relationship to how things actually are.

And I am in the process, mentally, of doing just that.  I felt a significant shift last night that is still with me today.  Part of it is: I am done trying to earn his love through my supportive and understanding performance.  If he loves me, it will have to be for other reasons!  Doesn't mean I'm not interested in what he thinks or is doing, but I am never again going to turn myself inside out in hopes it will be good enough to somehow earn his trust or make him happy.  Isn't working.

And the experience of being told that, after all that work in preparing for the talk about his book, he was "offended" though "not surprised" by my "disappointing" approach to the conversation ... .  ugh.  That comes uncomfortably close to the dynamic in my terrible marriage, with someone very broken though not BPD ... .  I kept trying harder, he said I kept falling short, I kept trying even harder, I kept failing.  Not going back there.  If this wasn't enough for my pwBPD, it will never be enough.

Plus, I think he has legitimate points about me trying too hard to be the answer to his questions or problems.

Don't know exactly where we are going from here.  I wrote him last night, longer than many of you recommended , but that is our way.  I didn't do much overt validating and no apologizing, but I do think the whole thing together validated that I heard and was taking his reaction into account.  But I also stated that we experienced this differently.  I told him I had no conscious desire to save him, but that maybe there were subconscious vestiges from when we were first together and it had seemed that he wanted that from me (for me to save him).  Then I pledged not to do that.

No idea how he will respond, but I will report back.  Thanks again for the phenomenal feedback and insights.

[almost789]

I think thats good for him P&C if you can make the shift from "lover" to "friend", I had difficulty with that. I was stuck here: 

5) Belief that things will return to "the way they used to be"

But now I can see, they won't. I'm shifting my perspective as well.

[rosannadanna]

Hey P & C   

Been tracking and silent but just wanted to put my 2 cents in.  I am guessing that the exchange where you told him how you were unhappy with him then he flipped it and suddenly he was unhappy with you is an old familiar pattern for you guys.  I think you probably entered old territory with him, where both of you feel more comfortable.  He is going to try to put himself on the triangle as the victim and you as the persecutor b/c he has BPD, but what makes it comfortable for you?  Have you thought about whether there has been a pattern that is comfortable but unhealthy in all of your romantic/initmate relationships?  The other reason I think you guys are back in old territory is that the codependent FOG has returned, making you ask yourself and the board what does he like about me?  I personally wanted to slap him when you asked him what he liked about you and he said something about you always asking about him.  Really?  Can he name some qualities about you?  Can he see them?  Do you feel comfortable enough with him to show him your individual qualities?  What are some wonderful qualities about you that you would hope would be (and deserve to have) appreciated and loved by your SO?  Is he as preoccupied by this relationship as you are?  I think right now he fleeing and gearing up to paint you black to justify it. IMO.  How much time are going to give to this relationship?  Six months?  A year?  For the long haul?  I think Maria1 is right all the way that you will eventually be a husk if you give energy to this relationship without getting much back.

The other theory I have is about fear of intimacy and pursuing emotionally unavailable men, a subject I could write for days about.  I read about your experience with your abusive exhusband and I think you are incredibly brave.  I think this BPD dude is safe for you b/c he doesn't push for real intimacy and in fact he keeps a safe distance (for you?).  Just a theory.

You seem to be insightful, compassionate (to a fault), you write beautifully and you seem to be a lovely person.  Hang out with people you validate your lovely qualities and stay away from people who invalidate them.