Empathy? Or lack thereof...

[BPDhostage]

This is going to be long so I will apologize up front.

I'm sure that this topic has probably been broached before, but I'm finding it exceedingly hard to rectify in my mind a reason to stay when it's become apparent to me that my GF completely lacks the ability to empathize. I mean 100% lacks it! I don't know why it took me so long to figure this out either. Little background... .  If anybody remembers me then they will remember that I am a woman in a relationship with a woman who is diagnosed with BPD. I'd wager to say that she is also NPD, but... .  that's her diagnosis. What I didn't tell people, is that I was married before this to a man for almost 20 years who was also BPD. Not only was the marriage physically, mentally and verbally abusive, but it is also what turned me off of men. I was probably bisexual to begin with as I've never really based who I love on gender, but that's for a whole different forum  

So I left one abusive partner and found another... .  both with the very same mental disorder. I'm kind of ashamed that I did that, but a good friend told me that she thinks that it was familiar to me, which is why I got involved with my GF in the first place. I did not know that she had BPD when we first got together. I feel stupid now though, as if I am a glutton for punishment. Back to the topic though of empathy.

Does your BPD person in your life have any? Do they confuse giving you things, or care-giving even with empathy? My GF thinks that handing me an aspirin when I have a headache, or cooking my fave meal is showing empathy. It's nice, is what it is, and it's a show of caring, but really what it feels like to me is her trying to make up for her complete lack of empathy. I'm not saying that she doesn't do it from the heart, I think she does, but I also think she does it to make up for the inadequacy that she feels (per the borderline thoughts). I believe  she knows that she does not have the ability to empathize or look at anything from anyone elses shoes but her own, so instead she will try to buy my love and affection. My husband did this very same thing. It's no different then when they rage and try to threaten their way into getting something in my opinion. Sometimes they threaten, sometimes they try to buy your love or attention. It's sick! How do you all deal with this? I find myself saying over and over again, "You don't have to give me things to get love nor do you have to threaten." In fact, it cheapens it for me.

So let me ask you all this... .  Do you feel the depth of a loving relationship? I don't... .  Do you feel that deep connection? My own beliefs are such that I don't believe it's even possible to have that sort of deep connection with a BPD person. Essentially I feel alone. Do you?

Have your own "empathy" skills risen to levels that you now feel connected to people, even those that you wish you weren't? Has your own lack of receiving empathy from your spouse or partner made you so starved for empathy that you've now become a human barometer for picking out people who need a shoulder to cry on, or who are damaged and then lean on you for support?

Because for over 20 years I've longed for a deep, empathetic relationship, but have had now two partners both male and female, who were unable to empathize because of their BPD. To make up for the inequality I have essentially doubled mine to make up for their inadequacies to the point that I can now feel peoples physical pain! It's drastically draining on me so much so that it's effecting my own health. I don't think that I am naturally anymore empathetic than other people except that I am NOW, because of having lived with a BPD person for most of my life. I'm 43 and these realizations are depressing to say the least. I do have an outlet, thankfully, a way of having normal and passionate relationships without cheating, and even a way to put my empathy skills to work.  I write paranormal romance as a day job  My GF claims that my books are all me and that I'm not giving her what I am putting into my writing. It's a fair assessment too. I'm not. I can't. I don't have the sort of depth in our relationship that I need. I'm tired of the scales not being balanced. I give and she takes and then she says I don't give enough so I give more and more and what's left? They always want more and more and more yet they are unable to give that which they take.

What's the answer? Well, I don't know. If anybody reading this does know, or has any thoughts, please, by all means, share! I do know a few tricks that I use in writing that help me to get into the heads of my characters, but I've selfishly kept them to myself rather than using them as a teaching tool to show her how to learn empathy. Why don't I do that? The honest answer is that I don't want a child. I have four beautiful children already, and I love being their Mom, but I don't want to be Mom to my lover... .  yet I feel like I am. That's not attractive to me in the least. Is it supposed to be? Am I being too hard on her? Probably... .  

This is way more than I intended to say, but it is what it is and it's what this forum is for right?  I feel frustrated and I am sorry if this post sounds like the doom and gloom scenario, but for me, right now at least, it is. I'm positive by nature so I am sure if I think really hard about it I can manage to put a positive spin on it  It'[s what we Non-BPD's I do I think, to lie to ourselves, to force us to endure another rage, splitting,transference... .  you name it.  How in the hecht do you have a relationship with a person who can't feel empathy? Is it not impossible? If it is possible, then point me in the right direction!

[hithere]

show her how to learn empathy

I don't believe a person with BPD can learn this.  Empathy would mean facing how terrible they are and that would break their mind.

[laelle]

I dont really have any experience with an NPD, but I hear it can be rough. I can really hear the frustration in your post, and I wish there were easy answers.  I will do my best from my own perspective for what its worth.

I dont think you have anything to feel ashamed of.  We like what we like.  I am sure the partners in your life found great benefit of having a caring person to stand by them.  Abuse is never a good thing. I was married to a man who use to hit on me and then run off to the nude bars.  In other words causing dramas that would enable him to go and see to his sexual addiction.  Even in all that I still found some good out of it.  It was a huge awakening for me.  The world is complicated and can be cruel.  There is no tooth fairy.

As far as empathy, my BF has it, but its not always present when I need it.  I self sooth alot now and dont require as much validation.  Its not fair, but it is what it is.  As far as making you breakfast or buying you things as a replacement for empathy.  I can only imagine a child making breakfast for a parent.  BPD's are a bit stunted and like a child in their emotional growth and that is maybe how she expresses her empathy.  

I do feel the depth of a loving relationship but where as I use to see through my eyes, I see it through his.  I see how he tries to give me what I need.  He buys me video games because he adores them and wants to share his love for me with them.  There are some things that are lacking at times, but there are alot of other things that click just the right way.  We are working on some things, and some things will probably never change.  Im ok with that.

As you say you have a need for a deep emotional, rewarding relationship. Its all a matter of perspective.  Changing your perspective can help you to be happier in your relationship.  I do understand how you feel.

My empathy skills vary day to day, but I find it easier to show empathy as I know the right words to use.  Empathy is a hard one for me because growing up my mom never thought my opinions mattered.  I have trouble to voice what I feel.

I think paranormal romance is fascinating.  I think any romance novels are fascinating.    I think its great that you have such a fulfilling career!  

As far as giving and her always wanting more.  It will always be that way if you keep giving.  She has an addiction to being needy.  As explained to me BPD's have a huge black hole with a hole at the bottom.  You can keep giving, but the bag is always empty.  :)o what you can to show you love her as long as you are comfortable with it, and then let her deal with her own emotions or needs.  Its not your job.  

I do understand what you mean by your partner being like a child.  I have 3 children of my own, and it was really hard at first to handle my boyfriend as well.  I have to say tho that the past 4 months of being on this website, using the tools, changing my perspective has actually helped me to have a fulfilling relationship with my partner.  Some of it was him, but some was me as well.

I really hope I have helped even if only a little.  Again, there is no easy answer...  As for me, my partner is worth the adjustments, but for some, it may not be.  I get alot out of my relationship, and as long as im happy with it, dysfunctional and all.  Its all that matters.  

[BPDhostage]

Thank for the responses. Your replies did bring me at least a little comfort. Does DBT teach empathy? Gee I hope so, because this is kind of a deal breaker for me. You are right though, totally right in fact, about changing my perspective. I feel as if I've already done that though for three of the last four years (20 if you count my husband before her). Whether I want to, consciously, or not, I think I've mentally checked out of the relationship. Her diagnosis is still only about 4 months old,  andeven though I recognized many of the traits that my husband had, I didn't want to admit it to myself that she had BPD. I now find her childish rants, outbursts,accusations and threats a complete nuisance, and like a bad episode of Jerry Springer I just want to reach over and turn off the T.V., put on some Mozart and a pair of headphones and escape into one of my story plots to do a little brainstorming. Sure, we have our good days, but more are bad.

Last week I finally said, "ENOUGH!" This after I told her that she doesn't need to constantly try to prove to me that I am a horrible person who makes her unhappy. That I'm not happy either, and that if we are both miserable, well then it seems that the writing is on the wall. I'll leave. Oh, no, but it isn't that simple, is it? No, no then she threatened to ruin me, and threatened to kill herself... .  AGAIN... .  Eventually, I caved and agreed to her unrelenting, "I hate you please don't leave me! Let's both really try this time."

Well, things were nice for a few days. We've never had more than four days of peace in the past, but I think she managed five days this time, so it is progress for her, but is it enough? It's 1/2 a step forward and 10 back with her and I am growing weary of waiting. She has tools at her dispose. She has a DBT workbook that she refuses to read or even attempt the exercises. When I ask her has she looked at her DBT book (you know like a Mom would say, "Johnny is your homework done?" she says, "No, I'm still on chapter one. I want to really understand the first chapter before I move on." It kind of reminds of the excuses I used to get out of feeding the dogs or doing the dishes when I was a kid. I smile and say okay, well if you need any help let me know. She's yanking my chain on the DBT workbook! I'm a perfectionist to some extent. I'm type B personality, but I do have some type A tendencies, and for me personally, it just isn't alright to have a disorder and just do nothing about it. She stopped seeing her therapist and quit taking her meds. She uses BPD as an excuse not to take responsibility for her behavior. I am having HUGE trouble treading water here. I don't know how to find the balance between 1) Understanding her disorder and letting her off the hook sometimes because she truly cannot help it (though can't she? she won't even try the DBT!) 2) Changing my perspective in a way that allows me to meet her needs, but to also have at least some of mine met.

Yesterday I quit smoking. I've done it a previous four times with each of my kids when I was pregnant. It's difficult. I get moody and will snap at people, undeservedly. Knowing this, I told my GF that the next few days are going to be rough, so I'd decided that I would spend most of my time researching and writing in the den and that she should give me my space. She accused me of using quitting smoking as an excuse to abandon her. I said, "No babe, I just know how I get and I love you, so I don't want to bite your head off. This will also allow me to focus on something involved so that I don't breakdown and smoke. She has no empathy though, so she really does think it's just an excuse to not be near her. Truth be told, I'd rather not be alone though this. I need her emotional support but she can't give it to me because she is unable to feel empathy.

[briefcase]

BPD is a complicated spectrum disorder and can be co-morbid with other disorders.  Generalizations about BPD and empathy therefore are difficult to make. The first Lesson addresses some of these issues and should help you out a bit with the latest scientific thought.

My wife can show empathy, but she struggles when she is dyregulated or stressed out and focused on her own pain and anxiety.

When it comes to "depth of love" that is also complicated.  We tend to have an ideal romantic image of love that evolves over time as a relationship grows (or fails to grow).  Given your profession, I'll go out on a limb and suggest you are a romantic! I am a bit of one myself.  Ideal images and archetypes are helpful to a writer or philospher, but they are mental conceptions and that can leave us . . . wanting in the messy world of real relationships. Sometimes we have to adjust our expectations, or at least evaluate if they are realistic, to make one of these relationships work.

In the end, our goal is to shift our focus and energy away from the shortfalls of our partners and onto ourselves.  What is it about us that attracts us to these relationships and how can we change to move ourselves in a healthy direction.  

 

[HarmKrakow]

Back to the topic though of empathy.

Does your BPD person in your life have any? Do they confuse giving you things, or care-giving even with empathy? My GF thinks that handing me an aspirin when I have a headache, or cooking my fave meal is showing empathy. It's nice, is what it is, and it's a show of caring, but really what it feels like to me is her trying to make up for her complete lack of empathy.

No my current gf w BPD doesn't have it. She however does say she HAS it, and, funny enough tells me that I don't have it. I gave up believing BPD's have empathy, they don't. It's one the reasons I don't want them in my life.

[elemental]

I think a lot of times BPD get overloaded on emotion and short circuit.

It's like a dog with too many smells... .  it's all coming in so intensely and so fast, what gets paid attention to first? How can you prioritize what emotion is most important to who? Probably BPD is like anyone else in a lot of ways. Everyone tend to feel their own emotions most intensely and if fear and pain ( which are warning signs to self protect) outweigh other things, then that is what a person pays attention to.

Maybe some people are really kind of evil and feel nothing for others, but I kind of get the impression a lot of BPD get the "deer in the headlights" and freeze up, then panic and fire off on the emotion that is most intense, then have regrets afterward. But then, what do you say to someone you disappointed for the 10,000th time and hurt?

Sometimes I get that way, too.

[laelle]

I agree with elemental, at least in my case.  For me, sometimes I get so many emotions going about so many different things that it all gets combined into this one, huge... .  ME festival.  Its not that I dont feel and understand someone elses pain, I do.  Its that when im triggered I see nothing but my own survival.  So, you can say... .  sometimes my empathy is buried in layers of my own emotional crap.  Its there, but I cant get to it.  I cant feel my own feelings.  It may also have something to do with my "belief" that people are better off without me.  I wont contact them unless I need something.  Not because I dont care, but because I feel im worthless and people have time better spent then listening to me.

[yeeter]

Hi Hostage,

Since you mention NPD, you might consider reading this book:  Loving the self absorbed

https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/loving-self-absorbed

[BPDhostage]

Wow Iaella

You just sounded exactly like my GF. She has said all of those things, though not put together as one coherent thought, and not about empathy. Thank you for that. Perhaps my GF feels this way too. One can hope.

It isn't just about being able to feel the pain of others, at least not for me. It's more about understanding and sharing for me. I don't feel understood at all and in so I don't feel like I'm in a true relationship. To me, in my opinion, if after 4 years with her or even 20 with my husband before her, if they didn't realize that I am not going to go out and cheat on them, or leave a note on the counter and disappear into the night never to be seen again, then they are never going to know me. I've had this notion put upon me for 24 years now. It has no basis in fact. I don't want some knight on a horse to ride up and save me, nor do I want to be a knight and ride up and save anyone, and I certainly don't want to live happily ever after  Where's the fire in that?  No, I am okay with having to work at it and on a positive note, people with BPD can never be labeled with the term boring.

It's about sharing... .  and without empathy, I don't think that you can understand just who your mate is that's laying in the bed next to you at night. If you can't sink into their head and understand why they do the things they do, like we all have to do for the BPD person in our life so that we can find tolerance and compassion in living with their disorder, then is that love? It seems mostly one sided to me. Sorries don't cover it either. Sorry coming from a person with BPD (w/NPD traits) means absolutely nothing. They say it because society teaches them that they should (in my Gf situation) but she has no real understanding of why she should be sorry. How it effected me, hurt me. Nothing,nada,bumpkiss! I am going to say this and maybe plenty will disagree with me, but it's how I think and feel. A person with BPD does not know how to love. They do not know how to love themselves, and therefore cannot love you properly. It's fake. They're going through the motions, of what they've learned from movies, books, TV, people they know and things they've observed. Whatever feelings they do have for us is based on the unhealthy and obsessive. I don't know how many times I have to tell her that I am neither all bad nor all good. Nobody is! Even Chuck Manson had something good about him. I don't know what that is but there must have been something.

Do I have hope? Yes, I do. I feel like BPD is brainwashing. If one idea can be put in, then it should be able to be replaced with something else. I think this is what DBT does. I don't know for sure though since my GF won't dig into the workbook and give it a try.

[lbjnltx]

Hello BPDhostage,

I went looking for some basic, sound information on BPD and empathy, I found this post by Skip... .  retired site administrator. 

I hope it helps you sort through your feelings and gives you a starting place to make decisions about your relationship.

To show empathy is to identify with another person’s feelings. Empathy is a pretty sophisticated human response if you think about all that has to happen.

It begins with awareness of another person's feelings. It would be easier to be aware of other people's emotions if they would simply tell us how they felt. But since most people do not, we must resort to asking questions, reading between the lines, guessing, and trying to interpret non-verbal cues. Emotionally expressive people are easiest to read because their eyes and faces are constantly letting us know how they are feeling.

Once we are aware of another persons feelings, we briefly imagine ourselves in their place -  feel what they feel - and then respond to them in ways that would comfort us.  This requires great deal of emotional maturity.

When Do Our Empathy Skills Fail

When we are in a distraught emotional state ourselves. It is hard to give when we are needy.   We have all been there. 

Showing empathy also isn't so easy when the person we are trying to comfort is having an experience we can't relate to.  We have all been here too.

Why People with Personality Disorders Have Poor Empathy Skills

BPD sufferers, or anyone in emotional turmoil are often flooded with conflicted and painful emotions. During times of dysregulation,  Borderline Personality sufferers can be so overwhelmed with emotion that they become internally focused, self centered and self absorbed.   Often a person with BPD doesn’t have the emotional energy to consider the emotions of others.

Showing empathy isn't so easy when it's and experience we can't relate to.

People suffering from BPD have a  problem with poor emotional vocabularies, meaning they find it hard to label and understand - their own feelings - let alone understand others. This inability to understand or accept their own feelings leads to feelings of confusion, shame and self hatred, one of the defining traits of a BPD sufferer. Additionally, a person suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder is often not very kind to themselves.  They often comfort themselves by dysfunctional means - cutting and self injury are a good examples of dysfunctional soothing.

Even worse, if a pwBPD perceives they are being attacked or criticized by our pain and suffering, or that there is even the possibility of being attacked, their defenses may go into over drive and the attack rather than empathize.

What Can We Do?

How do we best respond when a person close to us has no empathy for our suffering and may even attack us for it - be hurt and defensive?

Being hurt and defensive doesn't help.

Being the target of someones dysregulation (which can often feel irrational and unjustified) is painful. And while the natural reaction is to become defensive – this takes us further from receiving the empathy we desired or need.

This is why independent support is very important to individuals in relationships with people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder.

BPD is a true mental disorder.  A person with this disorder often can't be empathetic.  We need to recognize this and find comfort elsewhere. 

If we see that the person with BPD can't respond appropriately we need to just step away - let it go - find support in another way.  Family, friends, and support groups are very important for those in a relationship with a person suffering from this disorder.

Do We Need to be Empathetic of the person with BPD?

When we try to understand others behaviors from a logical staNPDoint, we are judging based on how we believe they “should” perceive. This focus on “logic” leads to the conclusion that the pwBPD "should" be able to do better.  Believing these “should’s” prevents us from full acceptance that our loved one is mentally ill.  But, lets face it, it’s hard to comprehend how someone’s emotions can get in the way . 

A recent study at Harvard Medical school using brain scanning to analyze how anger is processed, demonstrated that people who were depressed had a decrease in blood flow to critical areas of the brain, reducing their inhibitions and interfering with their ability to consider the consequences of their actions. They experienced what researchers described as a double hit,  “A decrease in blood flow to these areas of the brain reduces both their ability to control impulsive acts and their feelings about the consequences of those acts, say punching someone in the mouth. There is both a lack of emotion and a lack of control. A double hit that adds up to inappropriate, even violent rage.”

Someone who suffers from BPD is constantly on the alert for any possible invalidation. Even the slightest criticism or hint of rejection hurts them and drives them into defense and attack mode. They become hyper vigilant to any possible threats (often making mountains out of molehills in the process) as a defensive measure to protect themselves.

Until we can accept this, we won't be able to adjust and make our lives and theirs less chaotic and hurtful.

[BPDhostage]

Thanks for posting that, and to everyone that responded. The problem with what was stated above is that the BPD person does not want to let you seek support with friends or family or even on the computer. They want to devalue you, criticize you, blame you for all their unhappiness, then in the same breath smother you to death. My GF is insanely jealous and in so I've lost all but maybe one or two friends, both of which who can't stand my GF, so it's not as if I can invite them over. I certainly can't go out with them either unless I want guilt trips that last not just weeks but years! She will text the entire time I'm out, hecht she texts me all day long from work if I don't turn messenger on. She has to know where I am, who I'm with, what I'm doing at ALL times, yet this is a person who is unable to show or feel empathy. She can't understand why I might like a friend or a hobby that doesn't involve her, or even why I find it hard to do my job when I am expected to text with her all day long so that she feels the bond between us and doesn't panic at work. She has major attachment issues with me. I thought they say that as they get older the BPD sufferer usually gets better. She is getting worse, and fast.

[lbjnltx]

Hello BPDhostage,

I hope you will look into setting some personal boundaries for yourself within the relationship.

Here is some info to get you started:

Boundaries Tools of Respect

lbj

[Howtodeal]

Hi BPDhostage,

I just finished reading this whole thread. It seems to me that you have made your decision on the relationship and just wanted to know its okay to leave. You had said mentally you left the relationship. My experience both as a so called recovering BPD sufferer and I am in a relationship currently with a BPD, is that it's all very hard. We all want things in a way we feel it should be, yet so does the BPD. Relationships are give and take. A BPD person needs more validating than most, that is for sure, but don't we all. Most want to be loved, be understood, have long understanding talks, fun, all of it. I can tell you this, if you love her, don't give up on her, if she has that DBT workbook, I guarantee you that she is reading it and working on it, whether you see it or not. I've done it, it is a very huge eye opener. Alot of it hurts to read and know you do those things, while someone saying it to you is one thing, to read it alone and realize it's you, it's a WOW moment.

What laelle said is so true. You don't know which of the many feelings going through your head to address first and you get confused, scared and you act out. Then you feel guilty, so very guilty and ashamed.

So far as her needing to text you all day, she may just be needing a few kind words to get thru her day. May I suggest you contacting her first, telling her you just wanted to say you love her and to have a good day. Something like that. I too was that way and I just needed some reassurance that I was loved. Do you tell your GF that you are going to talk to these friends that do not like her and have you told her they don't like her? I am asking cause that in itself will cause a problem. I know this from my own experience, my ex use to do that to me. Would tell me, if you don't give me this or that, than this person will. Believe me, it never helped at all. I know others will say you are giving and she is taking as you said. They don't see it that way. My past has made it so much easier to understand my current BPD partner. While it is easy to say you understand someone else, it's even harder to actually do it.

Just my suggestions and 2cents. I can feel you do have love for her, let her feel it also.

A BPD's worst fear is abandonment and it rears it's head at the oddest times. It is still something I have issues with. I do try however, to work on it. It a daily process.

Good Luck and I hope it all works out for you and her.

[HarmKrakow]

show her how to learn empathy

I don't believe a person with BPD can learn this.  Empathy would mean facing how terrible they are and that would break their mind.

  Unfortunate, but likely the truth.  :'(

[tuli]

show her how to learn empathy

I don't believe a person with BPD can learn this.  Empathy would mean facing how terrible they are and that would break their mind.

  Unfortunate, but likely the truth.  :'(

This, I also agree, is the best answer to the post title, unfortunately.  I think it is hard for people who haven't experienced the symptoms of BPD to understand, and there is a lot of misconception in what BPD feels like. 

Honestly, that part about, oh, they are in such terrible agony, now that's really what the BPD would like you to believe to get the sympathy they want.  Their pain is PTSD-related, and reliving the past neurologically is not the same as having the agony in real time.  The only thing they are feeling is slightly uncomfortable and a pressure.  The emotion they manufacture in the Jerry Springer moment is the drama that moves them away from the emotion, which is a softer, deeper sadness and loss feeling.  Her pain will be vulnerable pain, not the sobbing agony or rage. 

We have all had a sad or bad time in our life.  Things can be quite painful emotionally for every one of us.  But your borderline does not want to feel any of the normal burdens that the rest of us bear.  Bottom line, they don't want to work.  The reason she does not do the workbook is because it's work!  It sucks to have to constantly work on yourself to feel okay.  And she will have to do this her whole life because she was born sensitive and got invalidated early on.

But people with a slightly lower I.Q. have to work harder their whole lives.  People who are a minority have to work harder.  People who have addictive personalities have to work harder.  People who grow up economically disadvantaged have to work harder, etc.

Every one of her negative qualities can be classified as a defense mechanism not to have to take on the work that it takes to be a responsible mature adult.  They are not children in adult bodies at all, although this is what a borderline would like the nons to believe.  All of her lack of empathy is based on a belief that we should do her work for her.  These ethics allow her to not have empathy, and not having empathy allows her to abuse.  She is 100 percent capable of empathy.  Borderlines have better capacity for empathy than the average person.  But they are emotionally allergic to uncomfortable or negative feelings which stems from finding ways to block, subvert, supress, explode, project those feelings other places. 

I get that you are doing this already, but she needs to completely lose hope that you will take care of the emotional needs she has to take care of for herself, and when you can stay 100 percent with yourself and not be affected by her, then things will change.  So keep going exactly the way you are.  Do what you need to do to treat her like a talk show. 

It sounds like from your post you are really getting a clear handle on things.  You are getting to a peaceful and clear space, particularly your comment about putting on Mozart.  The change you are looking for is going to be in you, not her, paradoxically.  And it sounds like you are there.  Plus all of your work consists of you looking at love and relationships for yourself, and can only benefit you.  So good for you.