repairing--leave things as they are, or try to improve?

[Depression = 72% of members]

For those who have followed my recent challenges: my pwBPD responded nicely enough to the email I sent, in which I said I won't try to save him, I saw our recent conversation about his favorite book differently than he did, and I don't disrespect his views the way he suddenly decided I did.  He accepted my non-apology (I did not apologize but his attitude in his reply is that I did) and disavowed any actual concern that I am trying to save him ... .  and now wants to know if we can move on.  He's ready to.  He is no longer mad, and it's almost as if this never happened.

Here's my question.  This is how things have gone with us before -- we're super close, he implodes for some reason, pulls back, I make some gestures, he re-approaches, and we go on, and we never delve into what happened, or make any apparent progress on resolving whatever happens that causes this.

Of course at a deep level I know what causes this and it isn't something that can be fixed through a tidy conversation over coffee.  His feelings go all wonky when we are close ... .  he mistrusts me, probably for reasons deeper even than the fairly deep ones he articulated in the recent email, which do show some insight (feeling I won't let him be him, feeling I want to save him, feeling I don't respect his views that are different from mine).

It is tempting to accept his invitation to just carry on, but this episode took a toll on me as the earlier ones have too, and I'd like to use the opportunity to make progress, if progress is possible without him being in therapy or having any apparent sense that he has attachment problems.

I'm wondering about asking him to try to figure out why he has a feeling I might be trying to advance a hidden agenda with him (that's how he framed his feeling yesterday: "like someone who seems to be your friend but actually has a sub rosa agenda to convert you".  I've already put out there that I am critically scrutinizing how I act with him to make sure I am not actually doing that -- and I can keep affirming that I know that must be a ~ty feeling.  My question is whether there is any point in asking him why he thinks he has this feeling -- and what I, he or we might be able to do to allay it.

Good or bad idea?  I don't want to keep traveling this same exact loop if we don't have to.  I am feeling more inclined to take risks in order to improve things than I was before this episode.

Thanks, brain trust!

P&C

[patientandclear]

For those who have followed my recent challenges: my pwBPD responded nicely enough to the email I sent, in which I said I won't try to save him, I saw our recent conversation about his favorite book differently than he did, and I don't disrespect his views the way he suddenly decided I did.  He accepted my non-apology (I did not apologize but his attitude in his reply is that I did) and disavowed any actual concern that I am trying to save him ... .  and now wants to know if we can move on.  He's ready to.  He is no longer mad, and it's almost as if this never happened.

Here's my question.  This is how things have gone with us before -- we're super close, he implodes for some reason, pulls back, I make some gestures, he re-approaches, and we go on, and we never delve into what happened, or make any apparent progress on resolving whatever happens that causes this.

Of course at a deep level I know what causes this and it isn't something that can be fixed through a tidy conversation over coffee.  His feelings go all wonky when we are close ... .  he mistrusts me, probably for reasons deeper even than the fairly deep ones he articulated in the recent email, which do show some insight (feeling I won't let him be him, feeling I want to save him, feeling I don't respect his views that are different from mine).

It is tempting to accept his invitation to just carry on, but this episode took a toll on me as the earlier ones have too, and I'd like to use the opportunity to make progress, if progress is possible without him being in therapy or having any apparent sense that he has attachment problems.

I'm wondering about asking him to try to figure out why he has a feeling I might be trying to advance a hidden agenda with him (that's how he framed his feeling yesterday: "like someone who seems to be your friend but actually has a sub rosa agenda to convert you".  I've already put out there that I am critically scrutinizing how I act with him to make sure I am not actually doing that -- and I can keep affirming that I know that must be a ~ty feeling.  My question is whether there is any point in asking him why he thinks he has this feeling -- and what I, he or we might be able to do to allay it.

Good or bad idea?  I don't want to keep traveling this same exact loop if we don't have to.  I am feeling more inclined to take risks in order to improve things than I was before this episode.

Thanks, brain trust!

P&C

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[laelle]

The best advice I can give you is to move on.  He has asked it and its what you want as well.  He validated you with his nice email, and to push it may cause a another drama.  I find that using "ok huney, I get what your saying" as a response to emails when im feeling weak or vulnerable buys me time to get my thoughts together.  

He is sensing that you have another agenda and that is because you do have another agenda.  I think getting this out in the open might actually help out some.   When it comes up be honest... .  Yeah, sometimes it is hard to only be your friend when I really enjoying being with you and think your a great person.  I am honest with myself about that and I am at peace with it.  I value you, and having you in my life is important to me.

Then let him make the next move... .  end of insightful info for a while.  

you were secure and honest with yourself, validated his importance, relaxed his engulfment and abandonment fears at the same time, complemented him without kissing his behind, and then let go... .    whats not to like there?

[Cardinals in Flight]

I'm in the let it go box as well. 

If you know your truth, be confident in that, and move forward as he suggests.  He told you a while back that he'd like you to initate more, then do so.  If you spend all this time with him analyzing everything that comes out of mouth and every move he makes, you're driving yourself mad, and that isn't good.

Some things can't be explained, but detaching, not over processing is one of the best things you can do if you want his friendship. We all have to depersonalize to a huge degree.  These relationships  take time though, it can't happen quickly, that's where the trouble initially began, the r/s started quickly.

I wish I could wave a magic wand and give you all of your answers. 

CiF

[laelle]

Cardinal...   I never thought about it that way but you are right.  The r/s did start too quickly and I didnt even know the guy I was in love with.  I have so much enjoyed the past months of taking things slowly and really getting to know him.

[Grey Kitty]

Do what you have to do and do what works for you. That should be obvious.

But let me speak to what you appear to "want" about this situation:

He blew up at you in a way that a healthy person wouldn't.

And a healthy person who did this would cool down, realize it, have a real conversation with you about it, which would include an apology.

I think you want him to acknowledge how out of line he was, and apologize for it.

If this is true, my advice is this:

Recognize that he isn't and emotionally healthy person, and doesn't have this capacity.

Also recognize that you really WANT him to do it even though he can't.

Then see if you can let it go.

[123Phoebe]

I agree with Laelle  

His feelings go all wonky when we are close ... .  

It is tempting to accept his invitation to just carry on, but this episode took a toll on me as the earlier ones have too,

What about your feelings when you are close?  Could you just as easily say "My feelings go all wonky when we are close"?

Get in touch with your feelings P&C, be honest with and to yourself; you only have control of you.  You're not his therapist.  It's up to you to change this dynamic and it's not going to happen by asking him the why's about his feelings -- You'll get a lot more of what you just got.

[patientandclear]

Thanks you guys.  I ended up assuring him that I don't have a hidden agenda to save him, and asking him to work on trusting that this is the case. I said we need to be able to talk to each other about important things w/o fearing that every word might be perceived as a breach of trust. I also told him if he has doubts sometimes or gets angry, I can hear it & we'll deal w/it.

I don't really agree that I have a hidden agenda (& btw I don't think that is even the agenda he is suspecting -- I think he thinks I want to change him in various ways where he is a nonconformist & is used to being misunderstood). I do have romantic feelings I have not hidden from him, I wish circumstances were such that we could be closer. But I don't want that to happen unless he is in a different place.  I figure if he ever is, he will tell me--I'm right here. Phoebe, no, my feelings don't get wonky, they are very steady. But his reactions do trigger my rejection/abandonment fears & I am shaky about that.

I am really trying to adopt many of your urging to be more confident and take more initiative. In today's email I more told him what I wanted than asked what he thought. What I offered was, I think, attractive to him. It should be--it's fun!

The confusion you are seeing in what I'm sharing here is that I want to give him space to be him, self-soothe, sort himself out. But I don't want to just act like things are fine when fundamentally they are not--because that seems like it sells short the possibility we can change, learn & progress. Sometimes I can't tell where on that map I am. Does that make sense?

[maria1]

'The confusion you are seeing in what I'm sharing here is that I want to give him space to be him, self-soothe, sort himself out. But I don't want to just act like things are fine when fundamentally they are not--because that seems like it sells short the possibility we can change, learn & progress. Sometimes I can't tell where on that map I am.'

Something which is key to my 'friendship' with my ex is that I force myself to challenge the stuff I wouldn't have before. Instead of walking on eggshells I go right ahead and jump. Because this is about me now- yes it's about recognising that the person I am dealing with has mental health issues particularly around abandonment but... .  so do I.

So I'm stretching those, for me. If you want to push this further then push this further. As long as you aren't taking advantage or being abusive why the hell can't you take it where you want to take it?

What always stopped me before is my imagined reaction to what I might say. What I've come to realise is that I can't actually anticipate his reaction and that, moreover, I am being incredibly unfair to him by anticipating. These days he doesn't act in BPD expected ways. Where does that leave me?

In an ordinary interaction with another human being. Give him the chance to react by acting in a way that is true to you. Then you can deal with his reaction if you need to. I think it's unfair to preempt it.

[patientandclear]

'The confusion you are seeing in what I'm sharing here is that I want to give him space to be him, self-soothe, sort himself out. But I don't want to just act like things are fine when fundamentally they are not--because that seems like it sells short the possibility we can change, learn & progress. Sometimes I can't tell where on that map I am.'

Something which is key to my 'friendship' with my ex is that I force myself to challenge the stuff I wouldn't have before. Instead of walking on eggshells I go right ahead and jump. Because this is about me now- yes it's about recognising that the person I am dealing with has mental health issues particularly around abandonment but... .  so do I.

So I'm stretching those, for me. If you want to push this further then push this further. As long as you aren't taking advantage or being abusive why the hell can't you take it where you want to take it?

What always stopped me before is my imagined reaction to what I might say. What I've come to realise is that I can't actually anticipate his reaction and that, moreover, I am being incredibly unfair to him by anticipating. These days he doesn't act in BPD expected ways. Where does that leave me?

In an ordinary interaction with another human being. Give him the chance to react by acting in a way that is true to you. Then you can deal with his reaction if you need to. I think it's unfair to preempt it.

Maria, this is so exactly what I am feeling.  Thank you.  Trying to act like a normal person with him is so ... .  challenging ... .  given that I am now conditioned to expect strange reactions to both distance and closeness.

For what it's worth, I feel like we're doing OK.  As I said above, I wrote asking that he try to trust that I am not going to betray him in some way.  And that if he would do that, it would be easier for me to continue to share with him openly.

He just answered that he wasn't angry (his language was very angry, BTW, but he isn't seeing it that way now), he needed to talk to me & understand what I meant.  Now that we've clarified that he was wrong about my intent, he said, it would be terrible if we were reticent about future communication.  So more, and more open, discussions, he requested.

So this chapter has resolved OK.  I'm going to try to be a little more forthright and steadier and less worried next time around.  Not saying I won't need to ask for advice though

[Cardinals in Flight]

You did good PC! 

We all need advice, this is rough territory we traverse!

At any given time, on any given day, during any given month of the year, these things can come to a screeching halt, explode, implode etc... .  and if we are taking care of us, doing our best to not make things worse, more than likely whatever caused the event, isn't totally about us.

The difference is, when/if it happens again, we aren't totally shipwrecked or blindsided like we were in the beginning.

Like now? my pwBPD is being emotionally distant, we've been here before, the longest it has lasted has been a few weeks. 

If the barometric hasn't changed in a reasonable, (hahahaha, just realized how silly that is to write ) amount of time, we'll have a come to J talk, then take it from there!  It ebbs and flows like any relationship, oopsie 'unship'

CiF

[maria1]

'Trying to act like a normal person with him is so ... .  challenging ... .  given that I am now conditioned to expect strange reactions to both distance and closeness.'

P & C- I tried to explain this before but not in a very clear way. There was a moment, a few months ago, when I posted asking for some advice on the staying board, some advice on how to validate something specific he was talking about. I knew that if I stayed in proper contact with him and 'enabled' the friendship I should validate and use the tools and practice and all those things. But I realised very clearly at the time of posting the question that I was still focusing too much of my attention on him and his stuff. I knew that this would just feed my codependency more; it was just another way of shifting the attention on to his needs and away from me. That I could re-condition my responses but the focus was still away from me and on him. That wasn't worth the pain for me of this 'non relationship'. It was all too loaded and i didnt want to do the work. I felt as if i'd failed in trlation to the aims of bpdfamily.com. I don't mind putting in huge time and effort for a relationship with an SO and I'm prepared to put effort into a friendship but friendships have different definitions for me.

So I practically ran from the staying board. Somebody on here challenged me that if I was to have contact I must use the tools because I must be sure I wasn't making things worse. Well, I don't see him often enough to make it any worse than all the other people in his life who aren't even aware of the tools.

Now, I dont feel the failure too much because i feel it was actually important for me to take that step for myself. Its a journey into a recovery/ understanding of codependency and thats important. I try my best not to make it worse and I bear in mind that I may be a trigger for him. But he has triggers everywhere and I managed to trigger him when I wasn't in his life, as do other people. I try to keep some distance between us but I don't have control over what he's doing. I feel that the bond is broken but there is still a connection there. The connection still weakens in time. As he jumps wherever the wind might take him on any given day I'm not prepared to move my island to be wherever he might arrive. I'm trying to grow strong and steady and he grows smaller in my life. That's hard at difficult times when there's nobody to turn to but he isn't the answer. I don't have the answer.

Now, I put my needs above those of my ex and I am still trying to do that, or at least not set my needs aside. For our 'friendship' it sort of helps him too because he says he really wants to make amends for the hurt he caused.

I suppose what I'm saying is this doesn't have to be all about him whilst you look after yourself. This should be all about you and all about him but separately, interdependent.

[waverider]

The reason we get stuck in these repetitive loops is because we are addressing symptoms  and how to deal with the current drama. We slap on a band aid solution. All is fine for a while then the band aid falls off in time and the wound starts to bleed again. Band aid time again.

This is the problem with BPD, the real disorder is so deeply embedded and denied that it is hard to address the real causes, so the symptoms keep popping up and we do work arounds until the next outbreak. Then one day we run out of bandaids.

Endless (emotional) bleeding is the problem and until the day the pwBPD has real treatment then you just have to get used to the sight of (emotional) bleeding without freaking about it, or trying to stem it.

[laelle]

For me, its all about how I feel about my response to his actions and not his actions in itself.  I accept them when its how I feel as well, consider them when his opinions differs but discusses it with respect, I dont really listen at all when its baiting me.  I usually say "ok, no problem"(nicely)or "I can see how you feel that way." and do my best to change the subject.  As long as I dont feel hurt by it, I let it go.  Because I dont take the bait, I dont give him the response he expects and fears, he lets it go.

Last nite I asked him a question out of curiosity with no agenda behind it, and he began to JADE.  I use to handle my doubts and insecurity by over analyzing the things he said to validate me rather than to validate myself and let go.  In order to have a relationship, any relationship, its necessary.  I let him know that yes, I did use to handle my feelings that way and that I was sorry, but that he doesnt have to justify his answer to me.  He seemed happy that he felt off the cutting block.  

[myself]

So more, and more open, discussions, he requested.

I'm going to try to be a little more forthright and steadier and less worried next time around. 

Really glad to read this! Sounds like great progress!